Don't Panic

Kent Wilson
December 02 2010 12:09PM

 

 

Darren Dreger has an article up today at TSN saying the Flames ownership is committed to "staying the course" despite the unfortunate position the team currently finds itself in (as well as the resultant public outcry to do something). The comments at the bottom are...predictable.

There might be some wisdom in holding steady, however. Darryl Sutter's actions last season in response to the club underachieving are an object lesson in how acting in desperation can in fact have detrimental consequences. In his spate of irrationality, Sutter dealt his shiniest bobble for a mediocre return, swapped headaches with the Rangers to ill-effect and then dealt actual assets to the Oilers for the privilege of accepting their Staiosian salary dump.

The Flames, as they are currently built, aren't in a position to make a drastic change of course. Not without taking a flame-thrower to the roster and management, which is probably a poor strategy in the middle of the season. Calgary has bad money all over it's roster, an untenable cap position and even it's most valuable assets have lost some of their luster with the club groping around in the dark. To deal away the anchors, the Flames would have to accept toxic contracts themselves, or at least package draft picks in the deals to sweeten the pot. They'd likely get bent over a barrel in trades involving the big guns; selling low on your best assets means getting pennies on the dollar in return. Or middling Leafs parts, as it were. 

At this point in time, the Calgary Flames are what they are - a mediocre team with nominal prospects to improve - and there isn't a single knee-jerk reaction that is going to materially change their fortunes this season. This isn't a call to stick with the status quo ad inifinitum of course. Just a word of caution against the raging impulse to "do something...do anything".

The long view is likely to become the proper perspective in short order. The ownership should shut out the sound and fury of the current, on-going struggles of the team and calmly assess what the hell they're going to do with this mess next off-season.

39d8109299a9795cb3b41a4e9b49d501
Former Nations Overlord. Current Fn contributor and curmudgeon For questions, complaints, criticisms, etc contact Kent @ kent.wilson@gmail. Follow him on Twitter here.
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#1 icedawg_42
December 02 2010, 12:24PM
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dotfras wrote:

I think Darryl needs to start stocking up on draft picks. We have extra bodies, moveable guys that we might not be able to retain for more than this year.

If the Flames keep up this routine we are almost guaranteed to have a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft. There's a start.

Not that he has an even passable record of keeping or using draft picks.

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#2 Danny Lawson
December 02 2010, 12:45PM
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If the objective is to secure a lottery pick, then I would agree that "staying the course" is the correct decision.

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#3 walkinvisible
December 02 2010, 01:27PM
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IMO, the main reason for getting rid of management mid-season is to minimize the further damage they can do at the deadline and on/after july.

if darryl sutter had been relieved of his duties back when he SHOULD have been (following the cap debacle and short-bench incidents in april 2008), we would have presumeably:

- shopped phaneuf for a better deal, not simply given brian burke a single bid (this based on darcy regier's insistance that he was unaware of phaneuf's market availability)

- let jokinen's contract run its' course and saved ourselves the following two years of facepalms at 3mil per (per year, not per facepalm). we would, in turn, have saved ourselves being anchored with kotalik and the 967K he's earned watching telly this season and the 5,053,000 he'll earn before leaving this team.

- never have signed vesa toskala (*snicker)

i like to compary daz's tenure here to jfj: not bad to start but allowed to continue FAR too long, thereby burying the team for the forseeable future. in jfj's last year at the helm of the leafs, he made the following moves:

-claimed travis green off of waivers -signed darcy tucker to a contract extension (later bought out) -signed boyd deveraux to a contract extension -signed kris newbury to a contract extension -signed ponikarovsky to a contract extension -signed nik antopov to a contract extension -signed colaicovo to a contract extension -signed staffan kronwall to a contract extension -traded brendan bell for yanic perrault

(also: signed strålman, kulemin & ian white to a contract extension ---being good signings)

yikes.

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#4 Senator Theo
December 02 2010, 12:15PM
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I would like to see the Flames try to add a few peices at the deadline and keep trying to turn the existing roster into a winner.

EDIT: Full disclosure - I may not have the Flames' best interests at heart.

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#5 dotfras
December 02 2010, 12:16PM
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I think Darryl needs to start stocking up on draft picks. We have extra bodies, moveable guys that we might not be able to retain for more than this year.

If the Flames keep up this routine we are almost guaranteed to have a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft. There's a start.

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#7 Senator Theo
December 02 2010, 12:25PM
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@Kent Wilson

Hmm...very good point.

Trade draft picks away for prospects that won't amount to anything perhaps? I'm sure Sutter has a few tricks up his sleeve.

In all seriousness - with watching what Edmonton has gone through the last four years, do you think it will be easier for the Flames to get to that point where they realize they need to tear down first, then build back up?

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#8 marty
December 02 2010, 12:27PM
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Ya I agree with you kent but and this is speculation on my part. With la's struggles and need of a pure sniper and another top 6 or top 3 forward. Should the flames not look to get a package for iggy? They are in a unique situation of having schenn and bernier which would be good return for iggy and to be frank I don't want iggy to be the next sundin. Also it is my opinion then the team could look to move kipper and reg and take the best package available because bernier would be kip's replacement and with gio and jbo a defensive core could be built around the two of them. Do not get me wrong I don't wanna see these players go but would be best for the players and the club. I know these are all hypothetical but if the iggy trade could be done it would be easy. Then all the bad contracts on the club can just be a stop gap to fill roster positions until they run out and players like hagman and hagman could probably fetch a draft pick. I will always support the club but I think change is needed. I have been a ds supporter I don't agree with all his moves but a change is needed. So there is my thoughts that don't mean much.

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#9 Casey
December 02 2010, 12:27PM
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The talent is what the talent is. We are middle of the pack in terms of talent.

The mystifying part of this equation is inconsistency in effort from game to game (and within each game).

Everybody knew that this team wasn't going to win on talent alone. Nobody thought that they were going to go 82-0. That much has been clear for a long time.

If the Flames aren't going to win on talent, then they need to play smart and work harder than the other team every night. This isn't even close to happening.

How long is it going to take for this team to figure this out? They are not a talented team that can get by on 30 minutes of effort per game.

At this point the fans just want to see a solid and consistent effort. Time to start watching tape from 2003-2004...

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#10 Bob
December 02 2010, 12:30PM
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That is the million dollar question. Something has to be done...but what?

As you pointed out Kent, the Flames are not in any position to make a trade that will help more than hurt...at least I can't see any GM's (right now) out there willing to go for it (though I recall Montreal gave up Halak for peanuts).

I am at the Dome for every Flames (and Hitmen) game and I have yet to run into someone willing to wait to see if the club can gain some consistent effort for each game. I tell them what you just pointed out...but everyone has an easy answer but the reality is that their solution is not based in reality! Sure we could say good-bye to Darryl. But what do you expect a new Gm to do...anyone new coming in will have there hands tied for most of this season and with the number of contracts containing NTC's or NMC's they might struggle to rebuild this team to there blueprint beyond this season. And what do you really think other teams would be willing to give up for Iggy, Kipper or Reg? Maybe they or others might have more value closer to the trade deadline...but are we, the majority of the fan base, really wanting to see this happen?

Does anyone recall last year? The calls for Phaneuf to go got louder as the season progressed. When it did happen the first reaction was shock and then most people I talked to claimed to be happy the move finally happened. This season all they can talk about was what a stupid move it was to trade away our "future" for basically Hagman & Stajan. Lets face...we can be a wishy-washy bunch sometimes!

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#11 Bob
December 02 2010, 12:33PM
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dotfras wrote:

I think Darryl needs to start stocking up on draft picks. We have extra bodies, moveable guys that we might not be able to retain for more than this year.

If the Flames keep up this routine we are almost guaranteed to have a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft. There's a start.

This isn't meant to be serious, but with Darryl it wouldn't surprise me if it did happen.

Darryl is planning to trade our 2011 1st round pick and Cory Sarich to L.A. for Ryan Smyth and Brayden Schenn!

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#12 dotfras
December 02 2010, 12:34PM
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Not sure now with the addition of Sturm that Iginla to LA is even feasable unless we take back significant salary.

@Icedawg I agree Darryl hasn't done great on draft day, I think with a top 5 pick though it's almost a sure thing you're going to get a decent player.

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#13 CA Flames Fan
December 02 2010, 12:35PM
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I'll throw this out to the more stat savy and information heavy posters here.

What do the Flames have in terms of actual picks and for what rounds for the 2011 draft?

If things really went southm the Flames have a lottery pick for next year, but my gut tells me that any 2011 1st round pick has been traded away long ago. If so, what team has the Flames round one 2011 selection?

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#14 Gange
December 02 2010, 12:41PM
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That's exactly the point Kent.

We can talk about trading Sarich or Kotalik or some other bag of pucks but what is the reality of that? Not good.

My biggest fear is that Someone like Sarich or Kotalik gets traded for an equally mediocre player with a LONGER term.

Take your lumps, work through it, get better in the end.

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#15 everton fc
December 02 2010, 12:44PM
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This regime gave us Kotalik, Staois, Stajan as a first line centre... Jokinen twice (at the expense of Cammy,Lombardi and Prust, whose turned into a pretty balanced player, not to mention being decent on the PK in New York)... We have not had an adequate backup for Kipper since Noodles... And now Babchuk to replace White. And who have we drafted outside Phaneuf who is even close to "elite" (trust me, I have always found Phaneuf grossly over-rated. My opinion, of course)

We let a decent, young coach go, one with a huge upside defencively who also won 40 games in his first season running and NHL club... for old-dog Keenan. Keenan's like Joker. Kotalik. Staois. And so forth.

Our front office seems out of touch with reality. May I site once again the Tampa Bay Lightning. Bringing in someone liek Yzerman, taking the gamble on Boucher...

They didn't blow up the team. And they are winning...

This direction we need to pursue. Sooner, than later. As one post said on another thread, last evening's game was the watershed moment, though one could argue the fiasco against the Caps here might have been that moment, missed. We have been thumped 7-2 at home twice this season. Once in front of the whole nation.

We are not very good on our home ice. Never a good sign.

I have always liked the Sutter's, but enough is enough. Time to pass the torch. King goes, too. That's how I feel, though I would be okay with Darryl moving up and staying with the organization (Brent, too) if King is gone.

We need change. Now.

Not on the ice. That comes later... at the expense of some frustrating hockey. Who knows, perhaps these changes I propose get us in the 8th spot, in the playoffs?

But does that really solve anything, long-term?

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#16 Domebeers.com
December 02 2010, 12:49PM
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With all due respect, Mr. Wilson, I implore the fans to indeed panic.

If the loud voice of an angry fanbase is what it takes to wake the organization up from its slumber, I am all for it.

Quibble if you like, but it is unconscionable that Darryl was allowed to keep his job last season. He probably was, in hindsight, because the owners couldnt get anyone who was serious to come in and clean up the mess. It was obvious at the end of last season this team needed more talent, and it was also obvious Darryl had jacked the cap up so bad that we had only $5 million dollars to spend to bring in said help. And it doesnt help when you burn $3 million of that on Olli. And have you seen the cap situation next year? There is no space to bring in help next year, either.

This season and next season they have no chance at a Cup, and who knows if they even have a chance at the playoffs. Squint hard, I guess. It would be okay considering they are getting a good draft pick if they werent also spending $65 million dollars and charging $200 a ticket for this mess. And lets say they draft number one overall. Can they even afford to put the kid in the roster next year?

It's way, way past time to panic.

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#17 Graham
December 02 2010, 12:50PM
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The Flames have reached this point through poor asset management, poor drafting, and poor long term planing. To be honest, it is going to take years to work ourselves out of this mess... The trades late last year are a prime example of desperation, we need a new long term plan, not more desperation!

Let the season run its course, and make the necessary management changes at the end of the year. Put in a President with a new long term vision, decide if GM Sutter fits the plan and move on down the line...

At this point, the Flames may actually benefit from a couple of poor seasons, get some decent draft picks, and allow time for some of the anchor contracts run their course, freeing up cap space over the next two to three years...

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#18 Danny Lawson
December 02 2010, 12:52PM
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dotfras wrote:

I think Darryl needs to start stocking up on draft picks. We have extra bodies, moveable guys that we might not be able to retain for more than this year.

If the Flames keep up this routine we are almost guaranteed to have a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft. There's a start.

"We have extra bodies, moveable guys that we might not be able to retain for more than this year" Not so quick with the moveable bodies part. The Flames have more "No movement clause' players than anyone else in the league.

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#19 icedawg_42
December 02 2010, 12:59PM
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Im probably wrong here, but I *Think* we have 1 1st rounder, no second or third rounders in 2011 draft. I agree that there is no single move here that will salvage this season (or really the short term). I think where we are, given the huge number of NTC's and ugly contracts, is where Toronto was 3 years ago - waiting for some ugly contracts to expire, and making moves where we can. The cycle of packaging all the draft picks and trades of diminishing returns has to stop though..aka a philosophy change in the front office. No matter what, we are several years away at least. So - no, no blow-up... theres really no way to do that but new management who has a long term plan. (and along with that, understanding fans) COiler fans are pretty high on their horses right now, but remember 2 years ago, and even last season, where their team was being booed off the ice every game (although if you ask a cOiler fan, they remember that NEVER happened)

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#20 Scott
December 02 2010, 01:02PM
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@Kent Wilson

Hey Kent,

All this discussion regarding how middling this team actually is in regards to the stats, I decided to sit down and compare the salaries from the flames vs the last 5 teams, on a line by line comparision, first line vs first line to see if I could spot a pattern. But as per expected results, this time is very middling, and there is no correlation between the price of our top line vs the other teams, resulting in a win for example. It was a neat experiment.

I used Pat's line ups for the past 5 games using the flames roster from yesterday, as the preferred one (ie, no staios and before kotalik gets into the lineup). I used capgeeks cap numbers as well. I am planning to continue this for a while and see if a trend does result.

Its also interesting to compare what we pay our 4th line forwards/ 3rd line defense compared to other teams.

Would be interested to see a full analysis against everyteam in the league. As such I' comparing the flames vs the rosters that the flames compete against, vs each teams ideal lineups( without injuries, etc).

Heres what I found

Calgary vs Vancouver: they pay their forward lines more than ours for each of the top 3 lines,, our 4th line has a higher salary. for Defense:(Pat had edler and ehrhoff as top D pairing)Calgary has higher 1st line D salary, while Vancouver has way higher salaries for D lines 2 and 3

Vs Minnesota:

Calgary has higher salaries for line 1&3, while Minni has higher for 2&4 For Defense: Our top D pairing is higher while Minni's 2&3 lines are higher.

vs Pitts:

Pitt has higher salary for lines 1&2 (no surprise), while we have higher salary for 3&4th Defense: Same as Minni Calgary top D line higher, while Pitt has higher salary paid to lines 2&3

Vs Phili Forwwards: Calgarys Top line is higher, while all other forward lines for Phili get paid more Defense: Same as Minni and Pittsburgh.

The only real trend is that Reggie and Bouw appear to by one of the highest paid D pairings, for what that is worth.

Interesting find: Pittsburgh lines 3&4 total salary is less then 4 mil combined. Of course, no J Staal though.

Anyway, if you want I can send you what i've got over the course of the season, might be interesting to addto the slew of stats that can be analyzed.

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#21 icedawg_42
December 02 2010, 01:04PM
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-- I think what Kent was getting at with the title of this article was "Dont panic, because there's no use - we are where we are" Not to put words in your mouth of course - and I could be way off base!

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#22 Scott
December 02 2010, 01:06PM
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I think we need to view the "blow-up" of the roster as a minimum 3 year process, as in, it will take an minimum three years to turnover some of these contracts(that we want to eliminate).

But I agree, the anger is gone, the realization that we need to change the roster, but that it will take years to do( too many NTC & NMC's) So prepare for some small tweaking for the next two-three years before the real action will occur.

It just isnt feasible or realistic to expect drastic change, with the roster designed this way.

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#23 Senator Theo
December 02 2010, 01:13PM
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icedawg_42 wrote:

Im probably wrong here, but I *Think* we have 1 1st rounder, no second or third rounders in 2011 draft. I agree that there is no single move here that will salvage this season (or really the short term). I think where we are, given the huge number of NTC's and ugly contracts, is where Toronto was 3 years ago - waiting for some ugly contracts to expire, and making moves where we can. The cycle of packaging all the draft picks and trades of diminishing returns has to stop though..aka a philosophy change in the front office. No matter what, we are several years away at least. So - no, no blow-up... theres really no way to do that but new management who has a long term plan. (and along with that, understanding fans) COiler fans are pretty high on their horses right now, but remember 2 years ago, and even last season, where their team was being booed off the ice every game (although if you ask a cOiler fan, they remember that NEVER happened)

The Oilers might be a little easier to watch some nights this year, but it's not that much different than last year - they still lose more nights than not, and they are still a bottom-5 team. Lots of bad giveaways, poor defensive play, I could go on.

That team has a long way to go still. If Oilers fans are telling you this isn't the case, look at the standings.

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#24 jmpgray
December 02 2010, 01:14PM
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I agree with the sentiment of no panic. We have seen what taking the first available deal for a prime asset (Phaneuf) gets you (though the Leafs got the over-hyped and over-paid player).

The team as it stands is not going to get it done; they simply can't handle the elite teams (Penguins and I hate to say Canucks). They don't have the cap space or flexibility (NTC/NMC) to raise the level significantly. Hold out for a no-brainer deal this year or stand pat (anybody who thinks Iggy is gone before the Heritage Classic is nuts).

Management has to take the fall for the situation the Flames are in. Giordano and Bourque aside, Darryl has failed to build a team around the core that obviously peaked in 2004. His time is simply up and I believe this is the year that ownership makes the change. The next group inherits a tough situation and we may have years of average teams to look forward to. Not what I would like to say but reality bites.

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#25 icedawg_42
December 02 2010, 01:18PM
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Senator Theo wrote:

The Oilers might be a little easier to watch some nights this year, but it's not that much different than last year - they still lose more nights than not, and they are still a bottom-5 team. Lots of bad giveaways, poor defensive play, I could go on.

That team has a long way to go still. If Oilers fans are telling you this isn't the case, look at the standings.

Sorry - I wasnt too clear - Im not saying the Oilers are any good - what I meant was, Oiler fans would like you to think that their 'rebuild' has been all sunshine and roses. It's going to be tough, and strain fan loyalty and ticket sales - that's what ownership is afraid of. I remember Pierre McGuire once said "A GM should have a 5 year window to make it work" - I dont often agree with him, but this seems right to me.

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#26 Monaertchi
December 02 2010, 01:25PM
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A couple of points K'ent:

1-the Flames aren't "mediocre", they are worse than mediocre. They are almost worst in the conference. Mediocre would be 6-10 spot in the conference. They are 14th out of 15. That is "bad".

2-Most of the outcry isn't "do something...do anything", it is an outcry for the head of Daryl Sutter. Getting rid of him now sends the right message to the coaches, players, and fans that the organization wants to be better and is smart enough to know what the problem is. It also gives the org time to find a new GM (hopefully not Feaster) and gives that person time to settle into the role before the trade deadline and the 2011 free agency.

And @ Bob: Just because a new GM wouldn't be able to do much to improve the team over the next couple of years doesn't mean that the old GM that put the team in that position should be allowed to keep his job. He screwed up, so he should go. Now that I'm thinking about it, Feaster is probably here because he's not good enough to get a GM job anywhere else, and the Flames are too screwed up for the next couple of years for an actual capable GM to want to take the job here. Feaster probably IS our next GM. Damn.

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#27 Scott
December 02 2010, 01:25PM
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@icedawg_42

Not that I disagree with Pierre McGuire's comments, but...

Josef Stalin had 5 year plans too, and boy did that work out great!

I agree that the GM needs a limited life, unlike Ken Kings assessment of"Darryl has a special contract, its not set in terms of number of years"

GM's, Coach's and Players all need that extra motivation, thats why players always play better in a contact year. Your GM also needs to know that he could be replaced. Whether its 3 years, 5 years or whatever, you need that structure to succeed. Although Lindy Ruff is an exception to almost every rule in sport :)

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#29 dotfras
December 02 2010, 01:37PM
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@Danny Lawson

We have Glencross & Moss. I see those two guys as very similar, we aren't going to be able to afford both much longer, one of those guys is worth something.

Hagman I would say has more value now than he did playing with the Leafs.

1 pick in the top 100. It's going to be inside the top 10 guaranteed, but we need to find some more picks.

I'm not saying we blow up the team & tank, I'm just wondering if we'd be any worse to cut a few guys lose in return for some picks.

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#30 Scott
December 02 2010, 01:38PM
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@Kent Wilson

I wonder if Darryl did indeed go on a "bender" sat down with Burke, they both got very drunk and drunkenly dared the other as to who could destroy their team the fastest and the most detrimental!

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#31 icedawg_42
December 02 2010, 01:41PM
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"IMO, the main reason for getting rid of management mid-season is to minimize the further damage they can do at the deadline and on/after july." --BOOM - there it is right there!

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#32 ugh
December 02 2010, 01:50PM
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According to wikipedia (I love sentences that start that way), the Flames have a first rounder in the 2011 draft. However, the Flames 2nd round pick is owned by Chicago, and the 3rd round pick is owned by Edmonton (Staios!)

As for staying the course... why not? They're up against the cap until the end of next season. The only reason I'd be OK with seeing Iginla or Kiprusoff moved is because I'm a sentimentalist who believes they deserve a shot at the cup ... and they ain't going to get that wearing the Flaming C.

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#33 CJT
December 02 2010, 02:26PM
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I’ve never been an advocate for blowing things up, but the inconsistency of this team is causing me to lose a lot more hair off the already thin crop I have on the top of my head. A big change needs to be made to get through to the players. Like everyone else I have no idea what the exact solution is, but at this point I would gladly trade all of the forwards for clones of Tim Jackman. When I suggested that Jackman and Ivanans be given the nicknames Bebop and Rocksteady, I didn’t expect that RockSteady would have actually suited Jackman but that is what he has been for this team. Actually, throw in a few Jackman’s on defense too to replace Babchuk, Staois, Mikkelson, and possibly even Sarich. Would the skill level be as high? No. Would the team put a more consistent product on the ice? Absolutely. Would they be better than 14th (15th if the Oilers manage another win tonight)in the West? Maybe, but they sure wouldn’t be any worse. I’d rather watch a group of hard working players leave everything on the ice than a bunch of former 20+ goal scorers with no heart float around the ice without direction and purpose, especially in key games against our hated rivals. I’m not asking the team to make the playoffs anymore at this point, I’m just praying for a consistent on-ice performance night-in and night-out. Overall, I guess I’m just venting about a team that keeps spinning its tires with no sign of traction in the foreseeable future.

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#34 Dave
December 02 2010, 02:38PM
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At first I thought that we should trade Iggy for a return. After thinking about it more i've changed my mind. It's true that we might be able to get a solid return for iggy but I think his skill, and leadership qualities off the ice would be much more valuable. Not because we have a chance at winning a cup anytime soon but because we're going to do poorly this year and get a high draft pick. Young players need mentors on the team whom they can emulate and look up to. Pitsburg had that with crosby/lemeuix, staal/recci, and Malkin/gonchar. This makes a HUGE difference in terms of getting young kids ready for NHL life on and esspecially OFF the ice. teams like NY islanders are full of young talent but have no one on the team in which they can look up to and learn from. THey are forced to learn alone and fend for themselves. I would rather have one high draft pick with a solid mentor and a good chance of being an impact player over a team of talented young players with no direction and leadership like the islanders.

that's what Iggy's true value is to me right now. It would be a mistake to get rid of all our talented leaders in order to get lots of prospects or youth with no mentors. The young guys need to learn that what happens off the ice is just as or more important then what happens on the ice. Another example is Price. When he was partying and living up life off the rink he sucked in net. My point is that Kids need mentors.

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#35 OilFan
December 02 2010, 02:59PM
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Calgary should change the RED MILE into THE BOULIVARD OF BROKEN DREAMS !. When will Dutter make the moves to help your team ?

Maybe plan another parade next preseason ?

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#36 icedawg_42
December 02 2010, 02:59PM
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Thank god the Oilers have Horcoff...and Souray, they should bring him back to mentor the kids.

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#37 T&A4Flames
December 02 2010, 02:59PM
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Trying to stay level headed- I can't complain with the effort Sutter put in over his tenur- he did make some good moves (Kipper, Bourque). The fact is, though, we are reaching a point where a rebuild is inevitable. My biggest fear, as it seems to be with many on this forum, is Sutter trying to salvage the season by trading for "leadership" ie: washed up vets and using our youth and(remaining) picks to do it.

Move Sutter up the chain and out of the GM roll. I don't know what Feaster's ability is re: drafting but if it's not rock solid, find someone else because that is where we are heading.

If Igi, Kipper and Reg decide they want to stay here, so be it. They have earned the right (and a contract to say so) to do it. There could be worse vets. At the very least, somehow, someway, dump some salary so we at least have an opportunity to sign a good FA or gain picks by taking on (limited to 1 yr) bad contracts. Heck, if we create space, we maybe have a shot at Richards- there is history with Feaster after all.

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#38 everton fc
December 02 2010, 03:00PM
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"IMO, the main reason for getting rid of management mid-season is to minimize the further damage they can do at the deadline and on/after july." --BOOM - there it is right there!"

Spot-on. Walkinvisible's comparisons to JFJ and the T.O. saga... Also spot-on, in my opinion.

I actually think another coach (like Playfair) could get this particular roster in a more competitive place. One could argue that Brent is the problem here - unable to inspire. One could counter and say it's not the coaches job to babysit - players need to perform for their pay. Agreed. But everytime I hear Brent interviewed... he seems a beaten man.

Throw up the white flag. Now. Rebuild. We are not in the same abyss the Oilers were. Or are. We are simply in a rut. Flat. Have been for a few years. Regardless of making the playofffs.

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#39 T&A4Flames
December 02 2010, 03:09PM
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I agree with you Dave- somewhat. Igi's true value is his leadership. But having Igi as a mentor only matters if we draft a player that is NHL ready. Otherwise we would have to wait at least 2 years anyway. By then Igi's contract is over and he probably moves on. What if Igi was given the chance to win with a true contender right now. In 3 seasons, when his contract is up, hopefully he would love to come back here (hopefully with a SC ring) to mentor our kids and perhaps, push for another cup to close out his career and retire-like he was meant to- as a Flame.

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#40 Senator Theo
December 02 2010, 03:23PM
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@icedawg_42

As an Oilers fan it has not been easy - I can't believe anyone would say different.

As far as timeline goes, 5 years sounds about right. Ray Ferraro said 7 years, but I think that can be accelerated if a GM has a clear plan.

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#41 hal a pena
December 02 2010, 03:54PM
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pierre is right on the button, a gm has a 5 year blueprint for success. in junior the time line is usually 3. the successful, stable franchises never rebuild they reload.sauve gms fill the 3 and 4th units through cap management skills.the awarding of nmc to such a high number of flames is mindboggling. darryl unwittingly painted himself into a corner.this wont be such a bad thing, unless the players are the likes of ollie,sarich etc.

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#42 T&A4Flames
December 02 2010, 04:01PM
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I found this an interesting column.

http://hockeytraderumors.com/article12988.html

If it could ever happen I may be on board. Although I would rather see Forbort instead of Hickey.

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#43 PrairieStew
December 02 2010, 04:04PM
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Agree with WI's assesment - no reason to fire him now, because the new guy can't do anything anyway. Sutter himself can't do anything to make them worse- except maybe trade Glencross for an older, poorer, more expensive and longer term contract. I guess he could downgrade Babchuk again - is Wade Belak avaialble ?

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#44 RossCreekNation
December 02 2010, 04:09PM
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They need to make the the type of deal the Rangers made last year - trade piece of crap player at 3M with another season left for a piece of crap player at 5M that is impending UFA. But first they need cap space in order to do this.

Off the top of my head, an example of such a player would be Alexei Kovlev in Ottawa for Jokinen/Kotalik.

Also known as the exact opposite of what Darryl did last season.

So now we just need to find somebody dumb enough to make that type of deal.

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#45 Scott
December 02 2010, 04:11PM
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@T&A4Flames

Interesting column indeed, but I shudder at the thought of a top line of kotalik and jokinen, that and picking up 3 more prospect/draft pick defensemen, this team doesn't need more defensemen!

I would love to see another forward in the LA deal, and TBL forward instead of defenseman.

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#46 dave
December 02 2010, 04:23PM
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We'll see what this team is made up of now. It's time for the Moss', Bourque's, Hagman's and Glencross's of the world to pick it up. (See how I didnt include Jokinen, that's because he's hopeless). It's time to to win some games starting NOW! DO OR DIE!

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#47 RossCreekNation
December 02 2010, 04:24PM
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If Darryl Sutter's mandate from ownership is to make the playoffs, then I fear what he might do. If ownership is willing to let him steer the ship in a rebuild, then I'm (sort of) fine that... let's get started.

But if ownership isn't willing to let him rebuild, and this team isn't good enough to make the playoffs, then why bother letting Darryl stick around passed today? He'd be a lame duck... what's the point?

If the plan is to "promote" Darryl and give the GM gig to Feaster, lets get this party started.

Bottom line: Unless ownership feels Darryl is the man to lead the rebuild (and that's a whole other debate), he may as well be removed as GM now.

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#48 B
December 02 2010, 07:43PM
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RossCreekNation wrote:

If Darryl Sutter's mandate from ownership is to make the playoffs, then I fear what he might do. If ownership is willing to let him steer the ship in a rebuild, then I'm (sort of) fine that... let's get started.

But if ownership isn't willing to let him rebuild, and this team isn't good enough to make the playoffs, then why bother letting Darryl stick around passed today? He'd be a lame duck... what's the point?

If the plan is to "promote" Darryl and give the GM gig to Feaster, lets get this party started.

Bottom line: Unless ownership feels Darryl is the man to lead the rebuild (and that's a whole other debate), he may as well be removed as GM now.

...if the Flames miss the playoffs and Darryl Sutter is promotoed it would be a big middle finger to all the Flames fans. A fresh vision isn't possible for the new GM when your new boss is rewarded for failure. What a corrupt blueprint for an organization to flirt with!

...I think it will take until the final 5-10 games of the season before we as Flames fans know for sure whether to order the guillotines or not. I think we can expect some fireworks on the player transaction board before the end of the season. A few players will be asked to waive their NTC/NMC.

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#49 dotfras
December 02 2010, 08:03PM
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Watching how bad Tampa's goaltending situation is leads me to believe that they would be open to trading for Kipper.

Kipper & Sarich for Ellis, a guy with an expiring contract to make the cap difference more even, a prospect & 1st round pick?

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#50 B
December 02 2010, 08:24PM
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dotfras wrote:

Watching how bad Tampa's goaltending situation is leads me to believe that they would be open to trading for Kipper.

Kipper & Sarich for Ellis, a guy with an expiring contract to make the cap difference more even, a prospect & 1st round pick?

...the only "guy with an expiring contract" that has an impactful salary is Gagne. I'm with you that the Lightning might be in the market for Kipper though (or possibly Iggy).

...not sure what prospects they have. Stamkos, Hedman, Connolley are their past 3 first rounders.

...Gagne, Connolley, 1st rounder? I'm not sure Steve Y likes Kipper that much. But who knows, maybe he pulls the trigger. Maybe we throw a second or 3rd rounder in the mix to make it more equitable?

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