POSTGAME: NEVER BRING A KNIFE TO A GUN FIGHT

Vintage Flame
November 01 2011 11:42PM

 

 

Despite the two teams both coming into this game with .500 records, the Canucks showed that when they need to, they can bury a team with one foot in the grave. The Flames had put together some much needed wins. Even though they didn't look all that convincing, they had been able to hold on and out last their opposition. That just wasn't going to fly tonight however, and the Canucks made them pay by coming out strong and fast right from the get-go.

WHAT HAPPENED

It's not like Vancouver came out and gave Calgary something they hadn't seen before. It was business as usual and before the Flames knew it, they were already in chase mode. The decision to take Babchuk out of the line-up tonight was mostly in part to his ineffectiveness at ES. Instead, Matt Stajan was put in to provide further depth in the forward ranks. For the most part Calgary was in the game early, but you could see the play tip and once it started... it was a landslide. At 7:57, Chris Higgins was sprung on a breakaway and made no mistake on the deke. The play would be indicative of the night, because the pass to Higgins was a bomb and the pass seemed to get through the entire Flames line, without even so much as a tip. At 13:42, Alex Burrows, on the PP, just bullied his way through the defense and put the puck passed Kiprusoff; 2-0. Vancouver rounded out the period making it 3-0 with another goal on the PP, from Daniel Sedin. The Flames special teams looked downright awful, and the Canucks made them pay. as Kent pointed out in scoring chances, Vancouver was all over Calgary 13-3.

The damage from the first carried right into the second period. At 3:47, Cody Hodgson made it 4-0, and you could put the Flames night to bed after that. The goal was just an all out brutal effort from the players on the ice. Lapierre worked his way out of a check that should have separated him from the puck, and to top it off threw a lateral pass right across to the crease that could have been stopped at three different points, right on the stick of Hodgson, and to the back of the net. it was cruise control after that for the Nucks, and they still managed to add another to make the total 5. Calgary managed to out chance Vancouver 6-5, but going 0 for 3 on the PP doesn't help their cause, and it showed in the sloppy play.

Can the competition committee try to institute the "decline" option on the PP? In the third period the Flames again went 0 for 3, and that included a 4 min PP with Henrik Sedin in the box. It was a terrible effort and the Flames looked like they were just playing out the motions of the game. Calgary went 3 for 3 on the PK, but as mentioned before, Vancouver had already inflicted the damage, and was just skating a passing scrimmage for the rest of the game. Calgary again out chanced Vancouver, 5-2; which is a nothing stat, except for the fact that it showed just how ineptly the home team played.

ONE GOOD REASON

... why the Flames lost? Quite simply the Flames were not even close to being the better of these two teams. Despite the Canucks only being .500 at this point, they are still the best team in this division and they are a team that knows how to move in for the kill. Babchuk out of the line-up was not a solution for this defense, it was merely a way to limit the bleeding. The Flames have a slower defense core and when you put that against some very fast and talented opposition forwards, it's not hard to guess who comes out on top. The Iginla line matching was a disaster all night. Even when the Captain showed some momentum, it was quickly quelled

RED WARRIOR

 

I really tried to find a silver lining in this game. I was half serious in the chat room when I said that if Karlsson didn't allow a goal, I would choose him as the Red Warrior. In the end, the damage was done, so I can't give it to Hank. I will give honorable mention to Alex Tanguay. he scored the goal to end Lu's bid for the shutout, and he wasn't on the ice for any of the Nucks goals. After all is said and done, the whole team failed tonight. no individual distinction.

SUM IT UP

The holes that are in the Flames game right now got exploited by Vancouver. They weren't able to mask deficiencies in one area with the play of another. The next step is to take as much as you can from this game and learn from the mistakes; lord knows there were enough of them. Schools in boys...let's move on. the Red Wings are next and are also struggling, having dropped 5 in a row. Flames need to regroup and right the ship.

E42f2ca09dfb26046c3060ff46473aff
Vintage Flame is a Calgary based sports junkie that prefers to call hockey a "religion" rather than an addiction. He believes there are two types of hockey fans. Those who cheer for the Flames, and those who don't understand the sport yet. Follow Vintage_Flame on Twitter
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#1 everton fc
November 02 2011, 09:53AM
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I'll say it again... The Flames need to mimic the Oilers.

1. A first line of youngsters (Sven/Reinhart/Backlund/Ferland/Horak/whomever)

2. Tanguay/Backlund/Iginla - 2nd Line

3. Glencross/Jokinen/Moss - Keep in tact

4. Keep Jackman. Perhaps play him w/Stempniak and a centre other than Stajan/Morrison. Say Nemisz, who'd I bring up now, to replace Stajan. If Moss isn't re-signed, Stempniak (younger) fills that RW role on the 3rd line. Tanguay/Backlund/Iginla is a good second line. Or, you can get a proven #2 centre for this line.

Move Bourque. Stajan - waive, see if anyone picks him up via re-entry and take the hit. Hagman is playing decent-enough to move. PL3 - obsolete. Players like Jackman and Desbiens fill any need for a "peace officer". And they have decent wheels and hands...

Keep Morrison in the organization, as a future Executive. Not as a #1 centre. He's a #1 centre on an expansion team.

4 lines that can score at a moderate clip. No real first line, but a rotation of four lines that are slightly better than the lines they match up against. And again - no goons. What do we have to lose?

Defence

Move JBo. Butler and Hannan are your 5-6 pairing. Hannan is a 2-3-4 d-man on an expansion team. Butler is a 4 man on an expansion team. Smith is a #6 d-man on an expansion team. Babchuk is another player who'd fit in perfectly on an expansion team. Move JBO for a 3-4...

I'd say at this point, even move Kipper, for a young 1-2 d-man, if possible (Zac Bogosian?) Hope to God Brodie can be a 3-4. I have my doubts...

King/Feaster/Brent/coaching staff - gone. Maybe keep Lowry. Maybe. The rest - gone. Get a good, young coach. Someone mentioned Boughner a few threads back. I like this idea. Look at what Sacco's doing in Colorado. Gulutzan (so far) in Dallas. Kevin Dineen is not doing a bad job with the Panthers, who don't have much. Even Paul Maclean has the Sens one game over .500. The Sens! (A product of the Red Wings coaching system...) Why can't we figure this out?? King and Feaster are not hockey men. Move on already.... Is Karlsson a #2 goalie? A #1?? Probably a good season to move Kipper and let Irving and Karlsson play themselves into, or out of, the organization. Let a new executive and new coaching staff put a new face - a new stamp, if you will - on the whole organization.

As for getting a lottery pick... Do you really have confidence the Flames organization as it stands today, will pick the right player, and be able to develop said player? Where's the proof??

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#2 Kypreos
November 02 2011, 12:12AM
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This team is lacking leadership. Seeing Iginla coast around out there between the blue lines is rieally getting sickening. I keep waiting for him to get his game going, well guess what its game 10 and the flames are in 14th in the west doesn't this road look familiar. Jarome needs to take some ownership for this as he has been very good along with alot of his team mates. He is the captain get something going. Maybe Kipper needs to two hand him in warm up just to &^%$ him off so he gets into it.

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#3 If Only HIs Name Was Olli Postandin
November 02 2011, 12:08AM
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Lottery pick here we come!!!! Yeah, baby!!!! I can promise you there will be no mad dash to mediocrity at the end of this season. Columbus and the Flames will be battling for last spot in the West. When all is said and done, the Flames will be drafting Yakupov or Murray this summer. Sadly, Flames fans won`t have much to look forward to other than the trade deadline until then.

On the plus side, in addition to a high draft pick, we will actually have money to throw around in free agency or take on big money in trades. Obversely, with Feaster and King running the show, that may still mean we are back knocking at the door of mediocrity next fall.

On another plus note, Micheal Ferland is on an absolute tear in the WHL, and recorded his first career hat trick tonight. At 6`2 and 210lbs he is already a man amongst boys, and projects significant offensive upside. He needs to improve his skating, but it is obvious he has been working on that this off-season. He is also a physical player who is quite willing to drop the gloves.

Considering the fortunes of the Flames, Baertchi, Reinhart, Brodie, Nemisz, Bouma, Ferland and this year`s inevitably high draft pick will all have a really good chance at cracking the line-up as bottom-six forwards and, in Brodie`s case, a third pairing defenseman.

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#4 Marcus
November 02 2011, 01:26AM
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Kypreos wrote:

This team is lacking leadership. Seeing Iginla coast around out there between the blue lines is rieally getting sickening. I keep waiting for him to get his game going, well guess what its game 10 and the flames are in 14th in the west doesn't this road look familiar. Jarome needs to take some ownership for this as he has been very good along with alot of his team mates. He is the captain get something going. Maybe Kipper needs to two hand him in warm up just to &^%$ him off so he gets into it.

Iggy belongs on the Flyers, Redwings, Penguins or Kings. He doesn't deserve the fate of playing with such a sub par group and only scoring 35 a year. He deserves the Raymond Bourque treatment. Tanguay's agent fleeced the Flames, Bork is an apathetic loser thinking he is somebody because he has money, and this is really just Sutters mess playing itself out. I don't see Feaster fixing things (Babsuck/Butler) Oh and Dion is inspired & playing well. I'm pretty sure 29 other GM's in the league would have paid more. What a shame. Please FFWD me to 2013. This team has zero heart. No more koolaid thanks. This fanboy just checked out.

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#5 jeremywilhelm
November 02 2011, 06:42AM
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I dunno folks. To me, the Flames haven't looked good in any game this season. Even the wins, heck, especially the wins. They looks just as terrible as they did when they were winning last year around this time, except now they arent getting the lucky bounces they need to eek out more wins.

Bourque - wow buddy, how have you forgotten everything that made you a decent player before

Iginla - you are playing 5 years older than you are

Bouwmeester - your inability to generate offense is both baffling and fustrating. I mean, people with half your ability are putting up twice the points. What the F happened to you?!

Sutter - you couldn't be more inept as a coach unless you actively tried.

Jokinen - i don't get it. How one person can hit the post so often is amazing. If he tried to hit the post as much as he does, he wouldnt be hitting it half as much. Someone put some bad juju on you.

Stajan - I just feel bad for you buddy. You would be able to put up 50 points on any other team in the league, i mean, you did it on a craptacular Leafs team. But not here, toil away my friend, and dream of the day you leave this terrible terrible team.

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#6 gussey
November 02 2011, 08:26AM
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Blow it up! Time to rebuild.

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#7 Kent Wilson
November 02 2011, 08:59AM
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I Must say, Im somewhat surprised by the vitriol here. Not that the game wasn't lousy - it was - but we've firmly established that Calgary doesn't measure up to great teams. The club has spent the last two+ seasons getting it's head kicked in by clubs like Vancouver and it was pretty obvious this season was going to be more of the same.

As for theories about leadership and heart and such, well...the fact of the matter is the Flames just don't have the ability to consistently beat the Canucks of the world. You can give all the "win one for gipper" speeches you want and make each players heart grow three sizes over night, but the effect of that will only go so far - in the end, talent will out.

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#8 Rain Dogs
November 02 2011, 09:35AM
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@Kent Wilson

"Win one for Gipper"... forget winning... "Show up for Kipper"

admittedly, it's not that Kiprusoff was the second coming last night himself either, but hell...

The thing is Kent, the vitriol is just a reflection of losing to the Canucks. Which in itself is bad enough, but when they speed-bag you on the ropes all night, and leave laughing, it's hard to take the emotion out. We know our guys are going to lose, but we'd like to see them do it with some dignity. I seriously don't think I saw one single additional chance last night that put Luongo into any difficulty.... not one except the goal. The guy is fighting the puck (can't catch a Jackman wrister) and he almost shuts us out. By 7 minutes in, the nucks had two breakaways, including one 2 on 0.

The Canucks did more to us in 10 minutes than what we could do in 60. It really was pathetic. It's frustrating to watch futility. On top of it, it's more frustrating to have louder 'nucks fans in the dome than home fans.... the "Lou's" louder than anything, even the "boo's", and jeers for Kipper. It's a question of pride.

Certainly, the current state in the NHL is one of great parity, but last night looked like a two-tier league. One in the elite league and one in the bush league.

Never bring "no fight" to a gun fight.

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#9 jeremywilhelm
November 02 2011, 09:38AM
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Never underestimate the amount of vitriol built up in the fan base in the last 3 years. The Flames have a pretty knowledgeable group of fans and the fact that the management and coaches of this team think we are idiots with the amount of koolaid they were passing out this summer, makes us even more bitchy and ill tempered.

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#10 negrilcowboy
November 02 2011, 09:52AM
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knife to a gunfight ha ha, how about bringing a pop gun to a nuclear war. brutal in every aspect of the game. i am trying very hard to figure out the so called butta system, all i can come up with is the plan is to bore the opposition into a slumber then score a dave andreychuck signature goal, collapse dump and chase then cycle time away. please explain why iggy has carte blanche to float between the blue lines like he is playing beer league hockey.has sutter lost the room, or are the flames merely iggy,tangs,kipper and echl talent. right now the flames are a clydesdale running the kentucky derby. you will never win squat unless a dramatic change occurs. clean house top to bottom. see ya ken king.

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#11 Kent Wilson
November 02 2011, 10:06AM
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@everton fc

I'll say it again... The Flames need to mimic the Oilers. 1. A first line of youngsters (Sven/Reinhart/Backlund/Ferland/Horak/whomever)

Err, no...for many reasons.

1.) The Oilers success in OCT was based on several things that won't last...one of which was Khabibulin being one of the best goalies in the league.

2.) The Flames don't have three high-end first roudners to put on one line. Baertschi, Horak, Ferland et al are nowhere near the quality of Hall, Eberle and RNH.

3.) The Oilers have been burying Smyth and Horcoff to make all this happen and they have kept their heads above water. You couldn't do that with Iginla and Tanguay. They'd get killed.

4.) Even with all that noted, the Oilers have some of the worst underlying numbers in the West. They'll come crashing back down to earth at some point.

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#12 Rain Dogs
November 02 2011, 10:20AM
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Maybe I'm just picking today to air all my grievances...

I don't know about anyone else, but I sure was thinking last night:

We need a little more Langkow and Regehr,

and a lot less Hannan, Butler, Babchuck (who sat!), and Stajan/BMo.

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#13 negrilcowboy
November 02 2011, 10:27AM
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Rain Dogs wrote:

Maybe I'm just picking today to air all my grievances...

I don't know about anyone else, but I sure was thinking last night:

We need a little more Langkow and Regehr,

and a lot less Hannan, Butler, Babchuck (who sat!), and Stajan/BMo.

in butta's words i am at a loss for words guys. the madmen of viking are destroying the flames.

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#14 icedawg_42
November 02 2011, 10:32AM
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on a positive note, Walker read one of my tweets this morning:

@fan960walker for next week's "That's Stupid" you should just read off the Flames roster.

Warrener cracked up then they said "That may be a little harsh" hahaha.

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#15 Shredder
November 02 2011, 11:19AM
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I'm an Oiler fan trolling on this site...not to offend anyone, but because I used to have season tix to the Flames when I lived there for a few years, and I genuinely care...a little. I have to say that this years' version of the Flames reminds me of the 07-08 Oilers...who were actually very close to making the playoffs but didn't quite make it. The total destruction of the team ensued a few years later and wasn't necessary right after that year...meaning the decisions the Flames make in trades now will determine how the rebuild goes...(ie: short and sweet ala PHilly style or longer and more painful ala Oilers/Capitals/Penguins/Blackhawks)...I would suggest finding an identity that will work for this team, because right now the identity, at least from an outsiders perspective, is: "old, slow, tired, gritty, with a couple of stars on the slow road to retirement"...I couldn't tell you if they were a run-and-gun (I don't think so) or defense first (I don't think so) type of team...

So just who are you guys, because I don't think many of you could answer that?

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#16 the-wolf
November 02 2011, 12:17PM
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Listening to the Fan this morning and they must've criticized 10 different players by name and blasted the 'leadership.' All except Iginla, once again let off the hook and given a free pass.

Time to face reality, the Iginla era is dead. The Flames have gotten past the 1st round once since he's been here and he's become content in his position as King. He's not going to do at 34 what he couldn't do in his 20's so now's the time to get something for him while we still can.

This team has been selling 'hope' for too long now and the fans are finally starting to revolt, realizing what a farce it's all been. You can't tread water forever. How long would a rebuild take? How long have we been treading water for? 22 years? A rebuild is inevitable so lets just get it done while we still have some marketable assets. And learn from the Young Guns era and go 'all in' this time.

And as much as Sutter is not a great coach, how many times are we going to change that position and hope for different results? No coach in the world could come in here and make this team a contender.

Much like the 2004 run, last year's run in the second half is merely a mirage. We have some nice young pieces now, so lets add to them.

Oh, and for all those who think Horak should be in the NHL, last night was a compelling reason why he shouldn't be; because I don't want the country club atmosphere in Calgary rubbing off on him. Keep him away from those losers before he gets sucked in to that culture too.

New president, new GM, new head scout, new coach, new leadership, new captain, new players, new system, new style, new direction, new everything. Burn it to the ground.

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#17 Bean-counting cowboy
November 02 2011, 12:17PM
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@Kent

I can understand to some extent your take on the vitriol here. I'm sure many didn't expect the Flames to take it to Vancouver offensively - however, I can also understand the vitriol. The Nucks made us look silly on our own barn. If I had paid money to see that game I would've been cheesed.

I thought we had a chance to win if we put in a gritty effort to keep Vancouver to the outside. If Kipper was stopping pucks from afar & outplaying Luongo, it was at least do-able.

What kind of scares me now, is that with losing guys like Regeher/Phaneuf & veterans getting older, that "gritty" Flames identity from years past no longer applies to the 2011/2012 iteration of the Flames. I can't honestly answer Shredder's question, because I don't know what the identity of this team is, or even should be.

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#18 the-wolf
November 02 2011, 01:21PM
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My great fear is that 1-2 months prior to the deadline the Flames will get hot and go a streak and once again we'll all "owe it to them" to see what they can do and no significant moves will be made.

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#19 FireOnIce
November 02 2011, 12:06AM
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The only bright spot so far in this season is that the Flames are 2 games behind everyone else.

If we played both games, while all others didn't play, and won both, we'd be sitting at 6th in the West.

As is, we're 10th in the East.

Silver linings, or else I'm going to drink myself to death.

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#20 44stampede
November 02 2011, 01:32AM
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Marcus wrote:

Iggy belongs on the Flyers, Redwings, Penguins or Kings. He doesn't deserve the fate of playing with such a sub par group and only scoring 35 a year. He deserves the Raymond Bourque treatment. Tanguay's agent fleeced the Flames, Bork is an apathetic loser thinking he is somebody because he has money, and this is really just Sutters mess playing itself out. I don't see Feaster fixing things (Babsuck/Butler) Oh and Dion is inspired & playing well. I'm pretty sure 29 other GM's in the league would have paid more. What a shame. Please FFWD me to 2013. This team has zero heart. No more koolaid thanks. This fanboy just checked out.

Tanguay is one of the few guys that is actually playing so far. I would say that Joker, Scoreface, Gio, Kipper, Stemp and him are the only bright spots on this team thus far.

Going to be a long year boys and girls.

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#22 stallsky
November 02 2011, 05:01AM
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Might rant here. I agree it was a bad night overall not many positives for the flames if any. But damn, this happens in the NHL. A good team can come in on the road and "walk all over" another team. The Canucks had better reaction times on plays and appeared to control tempo and flow after the Higgins goal. However, I'm and I think "we" shouldn't throw in the towl just yet. After our W. against the Blues we were 500 and were within 2 of 5th place in the west. Now one loss to the top team of last year and we hit the panic button because we are what we knew at the start. A team with gaps and lack of skill, however still challenging for a playoff spot. Thought you did your best to hold down the fort Pat. Rebuilds just don't happen through draft picks i.e. Islanders, but also retooling. I don't think we tank and go after a lottery pick just yet. Not off the Bandwagon yet, been through a couple of losses to the canucks. Its a long year...

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#23 icedawg_42
November 02 2011, 07:19AM
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Kent posted a youtube link that said it all about this game: The Suckiest Bunch of Suck that EVER SUCKED! Brutal. The big problem is that last night was just a rerun of every game they've played against an elite team in the last couple years. This roster IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH - this isn't a coaching issue. Could the coaching be better? Sure...Questionable matchups? Absolutely - but like Vintage's title, he was forced to bring a knife to a gun fight.

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#24 ?
November 02 2011, 07:45AM
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If Only HIs Name Was Olli Postandin wrote:

Lottery pick here we come!!!! Yeah, baby!!!! I can promise you there will be no mad dash to mediocrity at the end of this season. Columbus and the Flames will be battling for last spot in the West. When all is said and done, the Flames will be drafting Yakupov or Murray this summer. Sadly, Flames fans won`t have much to look forward to other than the trade deadline until then.

On the plus side, in addition to a high draft pick, we will actually have money to throw around in free agency or take on big money in trades. Obversely, with Feaster and King running the show, that may still mean we are back knocking at the door of mediocrity next fall.

On another plus note, Micheal Ferland is on an absolute tear in the WHL, and recorded his first career hat trick tonight. At 6`2 and 210lbs he is already a man amongst boys, and projects significant offensive upside. He needs to improve his skating, but it is obvious he has been working on that this off-season. He is also a physical player who is quite willing to drop the gloves.

Considering the fortunes of the Flames, Baertchi, Reinhart, Brodie, Nemisz, Bouma, Ferland and this year`s inevitably high draft pick will all have a really good chance at cracking the line-up as bottom-six forwards and, in Brodie`s case, a third pairing defenseman.

Thats not exactly true. Ferland had a hat trick last year in the post season, in the 6th and final game of the Wheat Kings first round playoff loss to Medicine Hat

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#25 jeremywilhelm
November 02 2011, 07:52AM
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I'm wondering if Ferland is helping drive possesion or is a passenger on the Mark Stone point machine.

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#26 icedawg_42
November 02 2011, 07:55AM
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jeremywilhelm wrote:

I'm wondering if Ferland is helping drive possesion or is a passenger on the Mark Stone point machine.

Ferland is definitely a pain in the butt on the ice, and can put some points up - but he's defnintely no Getzlaf at the junior level.

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#27 Bean-counting cowboy
November 02 2011, 08:21AM
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Olli - post - Jokinen. I said to myself at the beginning of the year, "if Olli scores this year on half the posts he hit last year, he'd be a 30+ goal scorer"

Unbelievable.

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#28 Flipnip
November 02 2011, 08:26AM
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The Flames has been a team that is playing only 40 minutes per night instead of a full 60. I think it is an attitude that for some reason has plagued this team since the lockout. We used to be the hardest working team in the NHL and other teams hated playing us. Now, we are a robotic like team with a poor forecheck and even worse backcheck. This team lacks heart and needs a major shake up sadly. Rhino on the Fan is bang on wondering where the passion is on this team as it isn't just talent. This team reminds me of so many past Leaf failure teams.

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#29 WTF
November 02 2011, 09:51AM
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Did I enter Oilersnation 2008-2011 by mistake?

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#30 xis10ce
November 02 2011, 09:56AM
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We are in a situation as mentioned before where we can compete (to some extent) with the middle class and lower end of the league. We on the other hand get slaughtered by the Upper end as we saw last night and even during last years amazing come back. Read: worsening of our draft spot while still not making the playoffs, and even if we had made the playoffs we were probably out in the 1st round.

We have ASSESTS NOW that we could trade for strong picks but won't until we hit rock bottom, but by then those assests will be worth very little.

We could probably bite the bullet this season and turn the team around within 5yrs or less, but instead we will run the good Flames ship aground over the next few years and it'll take a decade to recover.

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#31 everton fc
November 02 2011, 09:58AM
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Sorry my last post didn't format right. But I stand by it. As a committed fan.

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#32 Rain Dogs
November 02 2011, 10:00AM
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@everton fc

I think Kent's point is (and it's a valid one):

Good teams are built with great players.

We could go old (like the Wings), we could go young (like the Oil), we could go budget (like the Preds), we could go through trading the elite (like the Flyers)

you still need great players.

Blowing it up and going youth doesn't ensure any of those youth are going to become great players. And for whatever reason, we seem willing to trade away talent faster better than we get talent in return. And when Turris (likely) shows up.... just put a bullet in my fandom.

You need talent, and we don't have much talent. Some nights we have "heart" and "work-ethic" and some nights we get our heads kicked in. I sure as heck wouldn't be paying to watch this joke live... TV is bad enough.'85 through today, there have been good teams and bad teams...but this team over the last two-three years has been one of the most frustrating to watch suck.

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#33 Kevin R
November 02 2011, 10:44AM
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OMG, was at that one, got no TV time because by the time we scored the goal I was already at the Casino. Whats the 3 word phrase for "soiled the sheets that I sleep in"?

Anyone that didnt see this one coming need to realize this team just doesnt have the type of players that are going to lead to success in the NHL. We have no transition game, no creativity on the power play, hell these millionaire players cant even execute simply breakout passes & plays, let alone throw the puck around with the precision the Canucks do on all their lines.

I dont believe we push the nuke buttons just yet guys but I think Feasters evaluation of this team should pretty well be complete. But dont expect him to roll it out for us just yet. The players are still riding that great hope of the 2nd half of last year. The change is coming & I know everyone wants it to happen now, but that would be unwise. On another note, Vancouver have had poor Kippers number for awhile. Kipper was just feeling pretty dang good about his game, why didnt Brent play the Tower last night & save Kipper for Detroit, who he plays great against.Kipper should have played the 1st game against St Louis as well. Brent has gotta quit fighting it & do some of the simple things to start getting small successes for this team. If the Tower had gotten smoked, we still had a Kipper psyche going for us into Detroit. Now, uh oh, the tonic boys are flying into motor city to see if we can help them out as well.

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#34 jeremywilhelm
November 02 2011, 10:44AM
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I give Regehr 20 games until he tweaks his knee and is horribly exposed by the quick forwards of the east. Losing Regehr isn't our issue.

The issue is this team is built like a patchwork clock, it cant keep time and breaks down regularly. They are trying to patch the Flames glaring issues with players not suited for the roles.

Jokinen in a shutdown role. This is a role for a good faceoff guy who is solid in his own end. This is not what Jokinen is good at, and now that he has been forced to change, he looks lost in the offensive zone.

Butler forced into a top 2 role. Wtf. The guy is not terrible, but he young and playing 20+ mins a night in a difference conference on a team with forwards who are lost in their own zone. Thats a nice recipe for success.

Many other gripes but i should really be focusing on class

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#35 xis10ce
November 02 2011, 10:51AM
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@icedawg_42

Ok, now I gotta admit, that is funny

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#36 Kevin R
November 02 2011, 11:27AM
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@Shredder

We're kinda like the new version of Two & ahalf Men. Something is missing & kinda sucks.

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#37 icedawg_42
November 02 2011, 11:39AM
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Kevin R wrote:

We're kinda like the new version of Two & ahalf Men. Something is missing & kinda sucks.

Hahahaha!

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#38 Subversive
November 02 2011, 11:39AM
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jeremywilhelm wrote:

Never underestimate the amount of vitriol built up in the fan base in the last 3 years. The Flames have a pretty knowledgeable group of fans and the fact that the management and coaches of this team think we are idiots with the amount of koolaid they were passing out this summer, makes us even more bitchy and ill tempered.

This.

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#39 Subversive
November 02 2011, 11:48AM
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To everyone who is saying the Flames should just waive this player and that player, put them in the minors if necessary, etc, I have just this to say. Ownership's appetite for eating salaries in the minors is clearly gone. The Regher and Langkow trades prove this. It's clear that there will be no more hiding large salaries in the minors, so let's all just move on from that fantasy.

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#40 Al
November 02 2011, 11:57AM
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The flames as they are now are going nowhere fast - better to start the rebuild while there is still some value to trade away.

Iginla needs a cup before he retires, and that ain't happenin in calgary folks.

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#41 Derzie
November 02 2011, 12:19PM
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This road trip will be road kill. Kool Aid aside, Calgary is the 2nd worst team in the west. The talk of x points out of a playoff spot is moot. The loser point has seen to that. Climbing is a monumental task. Heard a stat today from Maher that the playoff slate on American Thanksgiving is 85%+ accurate as to how the season will finish. I am firmly in the 'this team can't win the way it is' camp. No more Kool Aid for me. The hated Canucks batted us around like a toy last night night and they are not even firing on all cylinders yet. It's over boys (sigh).

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#42 the-wolf
November 02 2011, 12:22PM
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Al wrote:

The flames as they are now are going nowhere fast - better to start the rebuild while there is still some value to trade away.

Iginla needs a cup before he retires, and that ain't happenin in calgary folks.

Why does everyone think he deserves one?

Is it the slow starts, the indifferent play, the strecthes of games he takes off, the country club atmosphere he's established in the room, his total disregard for anything that happens in his own zone, being a coach killer, refusal to play systems or his inability to lead by example?

Nothing will change until he goes.

Iginla = OVERRATED!!!

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#43 Luc
November 02 2011, 12:24PM
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everton fc wrote:

I'll say it again... The Flames need to mimic the Oilers.

1. A first line of youngsters (Sven/Reinhart/Backlund/Ferland/Horak/whomever)

2. Tanguay/Backlund/Iginla - 2nd Line

3. Glencross/Jokinen/Moss - Keep in tact

4. Keep Jackman. Perhaps play him w/Stempniak and a centre other than Stajan/Morrison. Say Nemisz, who'd I bring up now, to replace Stajan. If Moss isn't re-signed, Stempniak (younger) fills that RW role on the 3rd line. Tanguay/Backlund/Iginla is a good second line. Or, you can get a proven #2 centre for this line.

Move Bourque. Stajan - waive, see if anyone picks him up via re-entry and take the hit. Hagman is playing decent-enough to move. PL3 - obsolete. Players like Jackman and Desbiens fill any need for a "peace officer". And they have decent wheels and hands...

Keep Morrison in the organization, as a future Executive. Not as a #1 centre. He's a #1 centre on an expansion team.

4 lines that can score at a moderate clip. No real first line, but a rotation of four lines that are slightly better than the lines they match up against. And again - no goons. What do we have to lose?

Defence

Move JBo. Butler and Hannan are your 5-6 pairing. Hannan is a 2-3-4 d-man on an expansion team. Butler is a 4 man on an expansion team. Smith is a #6 d-man on an expansion team. Babchuk is another player who'd fit in perfectly on an expansion team. Move JBO for a 3-4...

I'd say at this point, even move Kipper, for a young 1-2 d-man, if possible (Zac Bogosian?) Hope to God Brodie can be a 3-4. I have my doubts...

King/Feaster/Brent/coaching staff - gone. Maybe keep Lowry. Maybe. The rest - gone. Get a good, young coach. Someone mentioned Boughner a few threads back. I like this idea. Look at what Sacco's doing in Colorado. Gulutzan (so far) in Dallas. Kevin Dineen is not doing a bad job with the Panthers, who don't have much. Even Paul Maclean has the Sens one game over .500. The Sens! (A product of the Red Wings coaching system...) Why can't we figure this out?? King and Feaster are not hockey men. Move on already.... Is Karlsson a #2 goalie? A #1?? Probably a good season to move Kipper and let Irving and Karlsson play themselves into, or out of, the organization. Let a new executive and new coaching staff put a new face - a new stamp, if you will - on the whole organization.

As for getting a lottery pick... Do you really have confidence the Flames organization as it stands today, will pick the right player, and be able to develop said player? Where's the proof??

almost everything u said here if off base in my opinion. Kent already took care of the young forward talent line idea.

i am definately all for moving the likes of bourque, stajan, hagman, babchuk, all the guys we want gone. however! im not silly enough to expect 3rd round picks and a roster player either. we have to keep it in focus. we know these players are bad. SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE and the more they dont play the more they ahve less value. because if we were to be honest and feaster got rid of hagman for a 6th... LOTS of regular contributors on this site would lose their minds thinking feaster is an idiot and got fleeced blah blah blah.

this team now is SUTTERS mess. feaster hasent even had 2 months into a season and everyone wants him fired. what was he to do??? our assests were untradble in the offseason if we wanted to be anywhere close to competitve and NO ONE was taking our garbage. we had to deal reggie and lanks ( who btw was a giant question mark ) to move this team even remotely forward.

I see a hold pattern for most of the season and then the sell off at the trade deadline to be the most logical plan for the club. if calgary wouldnt rip him apart i beleive feaster should be moving our "aging stars" to contenders for futures and younger players, remaining however, level headed in expectations of the return.

we need to change the direction of this team. YES i agree 100%. but making dumba$$ moves like firing the coaching staff and everyone that has a position in the flames org, have to be tempered. sutter cant control effort. i want to see what he does when he has players THAT ACTUALLY ARE PLAYING A ROLE THEY EXCEL AT. and see what he does. an example is Jokinen. he is doing his best and i beleive he is doing a decent job. but not a natural. morrison shouldnt be on this team. and we should be moving big money sooner rather then later and re-directing the PLAYERS focus.

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#44 Bean-counting cowboy
November 02 2011, 12:27PM
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Case in point - I nearly had one of those "swear at the TV" moments Kent mentioned in one of his articles when I saw (I think it was) Bieksa walk in from the point when a Vancouver player was behind the net with the puck.

There were 4 Flame players standing there in a box, not one of them moving their feet. I could see Bieksa coming from a mile away and thought to myself "they're going to let him walk right in there", - they all just stared at the guy with the puck, frozen, as if not knowing where they should go. Sure enough, Bieksa walked in, the puckholder fed it to him & he got a shot on goal in tight to Kipper. Keep that friggin guy to the OUTSIDE! Bieksa wasn't even barrelling in. He was coasting from the red line. UGGH.

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#45 Kevin R
November 02 2011, 12:41PM
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the-wolf wrote:

Why does everyone think he deserves one?

Is it the slow starts, the indifferent play, the strecthes of games he takes off, the country club atmosphere he's established in the room, his total disregard for anything that happens in his own zone, being a coach killer, refusal to play systems or his inability to lead by example?

Nothing will change until he goes.

Iginla = OVERRATED!!!

Dude keep your eye on the prize. If Penner can get the equivalent of 2 first rounders and a conditional 2nd for freaki8ng Penner at the trade deadline, I think Bourque can fetch the same. & just think what a guy like Jerome could bring. We want a shorter retool or rebuild or youth movement or call it whatever you want. We need overpayments. Please no panic trades right now, pllleeeaaase!!!!!

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#46 Willie Plett
November 02 2011, 12:50PM
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It's done boys. What really stuck it to the Oilers was denial. Get the injured players back, one slick trade and an off season FA signing and we are ready for another run at the cup. Three years of sucking till reality set in and only then a rebuild started. Flames are on the same road, getting tired and old with no heart left.

Blow it up this season and and plan to suck for two years and trade for lots of picks.

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#47 xis10ce
November 02 2011, 01:00PM
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@Kevin R

well said Kevin, when I talk rebuild I mean start thinking of it in Feb. The market will be hot and some teams will be sweating for that X factor to push them from 6th to cup contender.

We REALLY need to move forward from that position of strength, not just to jostle around a player here or there in Nov/Dec to 'find' that missing piece holding us back from glory. No amount of Tom Kosto's are going to fix the Flames.

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#48 the forgotten man
November 02 2011, 01:09PM
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the-wolf wrote:

Listening to the Fan this morning and they must've criticized 10 different players by name and blasted the 'leadership.' All except Iginla, once again let off the hook and given a free pass.

Time to face reality, the Iginla era is dead. The Flames have gotten past the 1st round once since he's been here and he's become content in his position as King. He's not going to do at 34 what he couldn't do in his 20's so now's the time to get something for him while we still can.

This team has been selling 'hope' for too long now and the fans are finally starting to revolt, realizing what a farce it's all been. You can't tread water forever. How long would a rebuild take? How long have we been treading water for? 22 years? A rebuild is inevitable so lets just get it done while we still have some marketable assets. And learn from the Young Guns era and go 'all in' this time.

And as much as Sutter is not a great coach, how many times are we going to change that position and hope for different results? No coach in the world could come in here and make this team a contender.

Much like the 2004 run, last year's run in the second half is merely a mirage. We have some nice young pieces now, so lets add to them.

Oh, and for all those who think Horak should be in the NHL, last night was a compelling reason why he shouldn't be; because I don't want the country club atmosphere in Calgary rubbing off on him. Keep him away from those losers before he gets sucked in to that culture too.

New president, new GM, new head scout, new coach, new leadership, new captain, new players, new system, new style, new direction, new everything. Burn it to the ground.

What is this leadership word you speak of?

~Jarome (G&CC) Iginla

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#49 Kent Wilson
November 02 2011, 01:30PM
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@the-wolf

I was thinking of that "owe it to them" remark myself today. It struck me as ludicrous then and moreso now.

Of course, at the time I also wrote about why talking about emergent "chemistry" as if it were predictive of future success is nonsense:

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2011/02/23/the-rorschach-alchemy-and-chemistry/

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#50 the-wolf
November 02 2011, 02:10PM
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Agreed, at the time I was all for striking while the iron was hot and trading from a position of strength. I think the team may have gotten away with no moves then and in some ways a guy like Tanguay might be worth more now that he's signed. But I'm not convinced Iginla can have another 43 goal season.

Depending on who you want to trade that is, I'm obviously in the start from scratch or close to it camp. Gio and Glencross might be the only 2 I'd spare.

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