Trade Iginla and Other Thoughts

Kent Wilson
December 01 2011 10:04AM

 

 

 

I asked the questions in the Flamesnation quarter pole roundtablem but I didn't get to share my own thoughts on Flames and the season at hand. Now is as good a time as any.

End of an Era

On perhaps the most pressing debate in Flames circles today, plant me firmly in the "trade Iginla" camp. I'll build my argument around a comment made by Jeff Lebowski in the recent Stoking the Fire (mostly because it's a convenient starting point, not to pick on Jeff in particular) -

Trading Iggy and/or Kipper is the stupidest notion. You need Kessel type return to impact this franchise and no team will give that compensation. You can not get adequate return for what Iggy and Kipper mean to the integrity of this team.

It's not 2004 anymore folks. Iginla and Kipper are two players in their mid-thirties with a handful of years left on their contracts who are drifting inevitably from their peaks - peaks that are quite obviously in the past. They aren't going to be in Calgary forever and they aren't pieces you build around anymore. The Iginla/Kipper epoch of the Flames history is pretty much in it's denouement.

Calgary has finished 10th in the west two years in a row and are set to do so again this season. I'm not going to advocate the club trade Iginla for anything, but this notion that he and Kipper are integral to the success of this team is nonsense (what success?). The Flames current quest isn't to retain the doddering stars of yesteryear. It is to find new stars.

Try this exercise: project what the Flames will look like in the summer of 2013 (that's the summer after next). Jarome will be 36 and a free agent. Kipper will be 37 with one year left on his deal. Tanguay will be 35.

A transition is coming one way or the other. The team can either try to leverage depreciating assets like Iginla and Kipper for a return or they can keep them around and let them drift away for nothing, Markus Naslund/Matts Sundin style.

- Of course, I'm talking ideally and from a position comfortably outside the org. In reality, all the noise coming from the management office indicates the Flames have no interest in trading Jarome and that he's here to stay. I think this stance comes from a couple of directions:

1.) PR - No one in the upper offices wants to be the guy who chose to trade one of the best players to ever don the Flames jersey. Moving folk heroes is tricky business - both the return and the optics need to be just right. As such, it looks to me like the club is setting it up so Iginla essentially has to be the guy to make the decision - then none of the suits can be made to look like the bad guy.

2.) Marketing - Iginla remains the most marketable face on the Flames roster and his absence would create a giant sucking vacuum on the roster in terms of selling the club. The decision makers may be reluctant to actively shop Jarome until they can find another player to take his place as "face of the franchise".

A New Hope?

Speaking of which, Sven Baertschi may become that guy if he continues to tear through junior. He currently boasts the best point-per-game pace in the entire CHL (2.37/game); a pace that would see him finish with 156 points in 66 games. Last year he scored 85 in 66 for context.

I've been tracking Baertschi's point totals across game states and the kid has 24 even strength points, 20 on the PP and one SH. He started the year out mostly cashing in with the man advatage, but has been killing it at five-on-five recently (10 ES points in four games).

It's worth noting that the Winterhawks are a very high scoring team which is obviously helping Baertschi post his numbers. It's also unlikely he'll continue on such a torrid scoring rate: last year no WHL player managed more than 116 points for instance. However, if he can post more than one ES point-per-game and finishes with more than 100 points this year, those are two big arrows pointing in the right direction for him.

Of note: I believe the last time a Flames pick scored 100+ points in junior was Cory Stillman (6th overall) all the way back in 1990-91. Matt Lombardi pulled a 130-point season out in his final year of junior, but that's far more common for 20-year olds and is therefore less notable. Jarrett Stoll is the only other guy who kind of qualifies: he managed 106 in his 18-year old season for the Kootenay Ice. THe Flames failed to sign him though and he re-entered the draft in 2002 where he was drafted by Edmonton. Calgary returned the favor by picking Lombo, who had been an Oilers pick two years earlier as well.

Misc...

- Where ever you fall on the trade Iginla debate, I think we can all agree that Rene Bourque needs to be moved. It pains me to admit that because I was a tireless Rene Bourque booster prior to his re-signing, but the dude has absolutely fallen off a cliff since he inked his long-term deal and he's trending in the wrong direction. Last year, he played with Jokinen in a semi-shut down role so his near team worst possession and scoring chance differentials were somewhat justified and it was worth waiting to see if he would bounce back this season.

No such luck. In fact, he's a few miles worse. He still lags behind just about everyone on the club in terms of driving the play by both chances and possession, except this year his assignment is a lot easier with Glencross/Jokinen/Iginla/Tanguay seeing the lion's share of tough match-ups. That has left Bourque mostly to bat clean-up and he's completely struck out: worst relative corsi amongst regulars, awul scoring chance ratio, middling competition and the easiest zone start situation (54%) this side of PL3. Getting beat up by other teams top-lines is one thing - utterly failing to take advantage of easy minutes is another.

Whatever the teams plans - be it rebuild, re-tool, status quo...Bourque needs to go. He's a detriment on the ice and his contract is going to be exposed as an albatross very soon.

- As far as I can tell, the Flames are probably slightly better than their record indicates so far but have taken a step backwards from where they were last year. I think they are likely to claw their from the depths of the western conference basement, but not much farther. Last year they could have made the post-season as an 8th seed and it wouldn't have been grossly out of line with their real talent level. Unless something drastically changes this season, though, 10th fits the Calgary Flames like a glove.

- Around the NHL, the most surprising coach firing for me so far is Randy Carlyle. The Ducks definitely suck, but I'm not sure there's anything more he could have done about the situation. The problem this year so far is Cory Perry is not running hot and Jonas Hiller is not constantly bailing the club out with a sky-high SV%. The roster is puddle deep and Carlyle was one of the more active bench managers in the league. It will be interesting to see what Boudreau does in his place, since his use of Washington's assets seemed far more middle-of-the-road.

39d8109299a9795cb3b41a4e9b49d501
Former Nations Overlord. Current FN contributor and curmudgeon For questions, complaints, criticisms, etc contact Kent @ kent.wilson@gmail. Follow him on Twitter here.
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#1 jess
December 01 2011, 10:14AM
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At this point, if the club doesn't enter a "rebuild" mode, I find it somewhat unreasonable to move Iginla. Kipper - easier to swallow by far. In fact with Schneider becoming available (possibly) soon, it may be worth it to shrug off Kipper's contract. I'd be happy to ride a Mike Smith type goaltender until the latter period of a rebuild. That all being said, Iginla or a serious prospect+ or a couple first rounders, and the Flames should be taking a good serious hard look at it.

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#2 icedawg_42
December 01 2011, 10:18AM
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Just HAAADD to go there eh Kent? I just dont know about the whole "trade Iginla" sentiment. The return would likely piss just about everyone off, and though I would hate to see a 'secondary scorer' make 7 million, he's still the best we've got. I still hold that he could be part of a rebuild, at half his salary.

On Baertschi, did you read that prospectus on him?

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1196

I tend to agree with a lot of what's said there - there's a lot to like there, but expectations stemming from domination in junior have to be tempered. I hope he pans out to be a first line guy, I could see him becoming an Eberle type based on what I've seen from him..but thats still a very small sample size. On Bork - I couldnt agree more, I think he's always had somewhat of a "who gives a f*ck" attitude on the ice, but I think that's also been compounded with a subconscious fear of injury, in short I think he's playing scared. I think a lot of people here are overvaluing the kids coming up. Suffice to say we don't have the "kid" line in our system. We really DO need to hunt for a future franchise guy, whether its fishing for a top 5 pick or trying to land the big fish UFA (Parise please)..

I also hope they land quite far from 10th in the West.

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#3 snappingpacco
December 01 2011, 10:21AM
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Great read as usual, I was really surprised tht the ducks fired there bench boss, he has constantly proven he can get the job done with below average players not named Geztlaf ///Perry /Ryan. Those three players along with hiller lead the team to a good season last year and I wouldn't mind getting rid of sutter and getting Carlyle. Maybe tht way we could also try to pick up Ryan for maybe a bourque +prospect and pick or maybe possibly even trade iggy to acquire Ryan. He ccould be the next building block and help with a rebuild

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#4 icedawg_42
December 01 2011, 10:24AM
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@snappingpacco

Do you think the Ducks were making a choice between Carlyle and Ryan? Do you think Ryan stays now?

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#5 RossCreekNation
December 01 2011, 10:36AM
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Ducks had to make that call. Had Boudreau not been available, I'm not sure Carlyle gets fired yet, but that team needed a change.

I don't get this notion that "you can't fire good coaches". Coaches have shelf lives. They just do. When hockey isn't fun (see Carlyle's Ducks or Sutters' Flames), you NEED to bring a new voice in to 'freshen' things up. The same can be said vice versa (see Flames that Darryl took over - they NEEDED that guy, now they NEED to get away from that type).

Anyways, I called Boudreau to Ducks 46 hrs ago... so I'm obviously a genius.

Bang on RE: Iginla, Kipper & Bourque, Kent. Time to move on.

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#6 Justin Azevedo
December 01 2011, 10:36AM
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I notice you did not call these "random"

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#7 Rain Dogs
December 01 2011, 10:37AM
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I think it's always important to have your eye on a core group.... not "THE core".

Who WAS our core? Iggy, Kipper (is about all that's left)

Who IS our core (the ones who will (may) be there when we return to being contenders in 4-6 years earliest)

Gio, Jbo, GlenX, RBQ, Backlund, Comeau and the youngsters. Your '82 and later birth years.

If you don't like the '82 or later core...that's fine! (I don't like parts), but thinking that Kipper and Iggy (irrespective of how good/bad they are) are part of a competitive core is delusional.

We still have a pretty good core, but we've got to stop reliving the past achievements of "THE core"

If you can trade Kipper or Iggy and improve our competitive core... do it, if not.... probably not.

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#8 negrilcowboy
December 01 2011, 10:50AM
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trade anyone or everyone, and can butter. the rebuild needs to begin now. replace kk and the lot as well.poor drafting, no player development and no committment to winning has resulted in todays pathetic club. 2 drafted players in a lineup the other evening, gawd thats a joke.

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#9 Scott
December 01 2011, 10:52AM
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In regards to Bourque, I think you have to get rid of him, if only to free up his salary with the rest of the salary dump next year, and because this team loves to run at the 50 player maximum, giving no leeway. I don't think it matters what the return is. I'd rather have the roster spot open for a younger guy to not play on the 4th line.

As for Iggy and Kipper, if they want to stay, you have to let them stay. All the goodwill built up in having these players play here will be wasted if there is a botched trade (most likely outcome with King pulling the trigger).

If things are handled properly, and we get a Parise for the top line next year, the transition for iggy to go from top line next year, to 2nd line the year after is in place. And we can eat the extra salary for that year, becuase he is a UFA after that.

As for Kipper, if this team doesn't have a suitable replacement (Irving?) for next year, I think we need to take a run at schnieder, or Lindback, or Enroth to plan for the future. I don't know when Lindback or Enroth are FA's, but they should be on the radar.

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#10 the-wolf
December 01 2011, 10:55AM
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Well put Kent, the Iginla era was what it was and is now over, time to move on and trading Iginla helps do that.

I can see KK telling the owners, "but if we move Iginla, that's our #1 best-selling jersey gone and that creates X $/year." Which, it appears, is all this ownership really cares about anyways. Just average enough to sell hope and fill seats to sell jerseys and beer.

As far as Iginla and the team each trying to have the other side make the first move in reagrds to a move - how old are these guys? Go sit down together and come to a decision already. This idiotic game of chicken they're playing right now is unprofessional, childish, small-minded and detrimental to the team now and in the future.

Time for this club to sell 'team' and not 'icon.'

Man, I can't believe I had Baertschi rated at about 20 now. Impossible to say how he does in the NHL, but right now he's looking like a steal.

Not sure Carlyle would be the way to go for a coaching change. I think he's a great coach, but he largely has the same approach, values, attitude and demeanour as Sutter. It would be the same message in a new package.

@Ross Creek - you are a genius for calling that.

My ideal scenario: Iginla gets moved to the Caps and part of the return involves the Avs pick.

Flames then finish bottom 5 as well. 2 lotto picks in the deepest draft since 2003.

Here's the reality: moving Iginla means a 3 year rebuild. Keeping him and driving the club off the cliff in 1.5 years means the club is forced into an Edmonton-style 6 year rebuild.

Take your pick.

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#11 icedawg_42
December 01 2011, 11:02AM
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@the-wolf

I totally agree with you on Carlyle being a bad fit for Calgary right now.

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#12 RKD
December 01 2011, 11:02AM
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Awesome photo of Iggy and Kipper together.

I guess as a hardcore Flames fan it pains me that both may not win a Stanley Cup as Flames.

I kept thinking that these two would be able to will themselves back to another Stanley Cup final and win. However, four first round exits and two non-playoff appearances are the reality.

If you are going to trade Iggy,try to get a really good return. Nothing of a Phaneuf-Stajan debacle?

You would also get a good return for Kipper as well. However, are Karlsson and Irving ready for prime-time duty?

At least let Iggy score #500 with Calgary and Kipper get win no. 300 before they get moved, if at all. Maybe end of January or February.

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#13 Rain Dogs
December 01 2011, 11:08AM
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@Scott

All three of those goalies are Restricted free agents, so that'll be tough.

Schneider for sure would probably like to get out of Vancouver, but they also aren't keeping him on the bench, but he's going to be pricey next year.

What could we trade for those guys? Nothing. Vancouver, especially, wouldn't likely deal Schneider to Calgary.

If we traded Kipper (which is likely an option), we'd need to bring a goalie back IMHO... and that, combined with his salary, really limits trade partners.

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#14 Back in the Winter of '89
December 01 2011, 11:27AM
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I hated to see Nieuwendyk go in '95 but that trade, unlike so many in Flames history, worked out pretty well. And as much as I love the guy who can play for the same franchise, especially a future HHOF member like Iggy, but I think the Flames franchise is in desperate need of a future face.

Iginla will always be the face of the Flames resurgence and the franchise owes a lot to the guy, but I think we can all agree that Iginla deserves a shot to play for a cup and the Flames' have a black hole for a future, so lets start defining that future by getting something in return.

Its not often I agree with Grant Pollock (http://www.outlawsportstv.com/calgary-flames/jarome-igonela/) but I think he is right in that the Flames may be a year or two late to have gotten a suitable return for a franchise player.

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#15 RossCreekNation
December 01 2011, 11:32AM
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@Rain Dogs

I've had your same "82-and-younger-core" in mind over the last month as well... which is why I've said the only UFA I MIGHT re-sign is Stempniak. They can sign other team's UFA's that are older, but none of their own (although I wouldn't sign anyone over 32).

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#16 es123
December 01 2011, 11:32AM
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Take a look at the east and think about who could be making a playoff push that would need a goalie. FLA jumps out at me and could give us a decent return.

Tampa and NYI are the others I can see, but the move doesn't make sense for NYI this year (because they suck) and I think Yzerman is too smart to overpay.

Iggy is a different story and I could see a bidding war happening at the deadline for him. Maybe I'm dreaming though.

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#17 T&A4Flames
December 01 2011, 11:32AM
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RKD wrote:

Awesome photo of Iggy and Kipper together.

I guess as a hardcore Flames fan it pains me that both may not win a Stanley Cup as Flames.

I kept thinking that these two would be able to will themselves back to another Stanley Cup final and win. However, four first round exits and two non-playoff appearances are the reality.

If you are going to trade Iggy,try to get a really good return. Nothing of a Phaneuf-Stajan debacle?

You would also get a good return for Kipper as well. However, are Karlsson and Irving ready for prime-time duty?

At least let Iggy score #500 with Calgary and Kipper get win no. 300 before they get moved, if at all. Maybe end of January or February.

I agree, I'm not convinced that Irving or Karlsson are ready. I would really like to make a trade to aquire a young goalie and hopefully one pans out. I'm thinking an Iggy trade could/should include a Rask, Bernier, Schneider etc. With a greater return I would be ok with Bobrovsky or Neuvirth. Iggy+ to Wash. for Neuvirth, Alzner & COL 1st would be sweet.

Maybe NAS would give up Lindback for Bourque & Moss (or other). I still believe you need goaltending to win so getting a good young goalie for the future core would be a great start.

As for the Bobby Ryan stuff. Is it really over now that they replaced the coach? If they are having financial difficulties, maybe the whole trade idea came from knowing that they would have to eat Carlyle's 3 year contract. Shipping off Ryan would be a way to save some $$$ and balance the costs. If we can work a deal for Neuvirth & Alzner +, we could move Butler, Horak and maybe Bourque. I would even include our 2013 3rd for Ryan.

Our future would look pretty solid with the additions of a good young goalie (Neuvirth), Dman (Alzner)and FWD (Ryan).

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#18 RossCreekNation
December 01 2011, 11:34AM
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icedawg_42 wrote:

I totally agree with you on Carlyle being a bad fit for Calgary right now.

That makes 3 of us. Good coach, wrong team.

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#19 nolan moore
December 01 2011, 11:49AM
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Make that 4. Read Dave Shoalts article in todays Globe. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/changing-the-coach-takes-away-players-excuses/article2256448/

He makes the point of a coaching style and mentions the grizzled coach, "But a team really in need of a change from taskmaster to worker’s friend is the Calgary Flames. Head coach Brent Sutter is the leading proponent of the family creed that there is no fun in hockey." I think this really puts alot into proscpective. Look at what kind of coaches the Flames have had since 2002. D. Sutter - Mean SOB J. Playfair - taskmaster but too soft M. Keenan - wasnt given the name "Iron" Mike for no reason B. Sutter - See D. Sutter.

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#20 Derzie
December 01 2011, 11:56AM
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A few of the solutions offered up here are not realistic. To 'dump' or 'get rid of' means you need to have options to do that. Do you think anyone wants Bourque right now? Do you think Van is pining to unload Schneider? Tukka Rask anyone? Getting younger and faster with Randy Carlysle? At least put some reality in your suggestions. Calgary would not get the return they want for Iggy. The hockey ops may do OK unloading Iggy but the business of the Calgary Flames would suffer greatly. The people who don't post or read these blogs are the masses and they want stars. Until you have a replacement star in the making, you need to wait. That said, Kipper and Iggy should not leave with the team in a crap state. Get it rising and let them be part of the handing of the torch. It's ok to lose for a while. We're getting a bit used to it right now.

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#21 Sincity1976
December 01 2011, 12:07PM
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The Flames 2-4 lines looks very good going into the future. A second line of Baertschi-Backlund-Nemisz will be decent. A third line of Glencross-Reinhart-Comeau should be an effective two-way line. We also have players like Ferland, Arnold, Gaudreau, and Granlund that could step up as well if any of those players don't turn out.

The Flames D is marginal but decent depending on what you think of Bouwmeester, Giordano, Butler, and Brodie. Wotherspoon, Leach, and Ramage may prove to be decent NHLer. The Flames should have the cap space to bring on a top 4 D if required.

The Flames Goaltending is a question mark but hopefully Karlsson or Irving proves to be starting material. We also have Ortio and Brossoit in the system, though a few years away from playing. But you can usually find an NHL starter if you have the cap space, and we should.

But that leaves us without a top line. As Kent says Iginla and Tanguay are already past their prime and are already getting beat up by other teams top lines. And we have been looking for a 1C for years now.

I think you need to trade players like Tanguay, Bourque, Kipper, and Iggy to attempt to address the top positions.

I like players like Baertschi and Backlund. But lets face it, Baertschi-Backlund-Iginla isn't going to look too hot against Hall-Hopkins-Eberle during the 2014 battle of Alberta.

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#22 Graham
December 01 2011, 12:08PM
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For the past number of years, management has made a decision not to enter into a rebuilding mode, which means they made a decision not to trade players like Iggy and Kipper for 'future' assets.

Simply put, Iggy and Kipper are rapidly declining assets, and their current value is a fraction of what could have been obtained two or three years ago.

Managements failure to understand the hockey world has cost us double, 1/ a Kessler type return for the asset, 2/ because we stayed in the middle of the pack (by keeping them) top 3 or top five draft picks.

Assume, you traded Iggy two years ago for two high end prospects / first round picks, and by moving Iggy the team finished bottom 5........ we could have had 2 top five picks plus the return on Iggy...

Dismal asset management

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#23 Jayamania
December 01 2011, 12:17PM
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@Scott

Why do so many people actually think that Parise is a lock to sign in Calgary next summer? There's no chance, none, notta, zip, nil.

I'm pretty sure Parise follows the NHL. With the current position the Flames are in, why would he want to sign with a team that is about to enter a full rebuild?

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#24 icedawg_42
December 01 2011, 12:20PM
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Jayamania wrote:

Why do so many people actually think that Parise is a lock to sign in Calgary next summer? There's no chance, none, notta, zip, nil.

I'm pretty sure Parise follows the NHL. With the current position the Flames are in, why would he want to sign with a team that is about to enter a full rebuild?

I don't think anyone really considers Parise any kind of lock. Frankly I think the notion is quite far fetched - doesn't mean I can't hope for it.

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#25 SmellOfVictory
December 01 2011, 12:51PM
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With Carlyle available, why not try him on the Flames? It'd be nice to have a coach who actually matches lines for once.

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#26 Sincity1976
December 01 2011, 12:55PM
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Clearly not realistic.

However, if the Flames did manage to trade Tanguay/Bourque/Kipper/Babchuk for assets (picks) and then traded those assets plus Iggy to Philly for Schenn and Brobovsky at the deadline (plus a player or two to make the salary work).

Go for the lottery and get Yakupov in the draft. Back the money truck up for Parise.

A quick buy-out of Stajan, demote Karlsson, resign a few RFAs and throw an NHL contract at Holland and all of a sudden you have:

Parise-Schenn-Yakupov; Baertschi-Backlund-Nemisz; Glencross-Reinhart-Comeau; Byron-Horak-Holland

Bouwmeester-Giordano; Butler-Brodie; Smith-Carson

Bobrovsky; Irving

Plus you have 20-million or so in cap space to upgrade your D. Mobile team with four lines capable of offense without sacrificing strong 2-way play. It will be a powerhouse in a season or two.

Will that scenario happen? Of course not. But the Flames need to make aggressive moves this deadline and next off season.

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#27 icedawg_42
December 01 2011, 01:03PM
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I think the Flames are going to need to get aggressive very soon here, you're not going to be able to replace all 12 UFA's in the offseason, and you run the risk of having to re sign some of them. Lets get it going already.

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#28 Jeff Lebowski
December 01 2011, 01:09PM
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Hey Kent, With regard to Iggy and Kipper: My point was they have extreme value to this team but as you note they are older and have fewer productive years in front of them. Teams recognize your point so they won't give the type of return Burke was able to give to acquire Kessel (proven scorer, very young).

Iggy scored 40 goals last year. He is the central cog to Calgary's offense. Kipper has been the saving grace this year. They mean everything to Calgary. Not 2004, today. Granted Iggy is in a slump. So are a lot of good players. The prevailing sentiment of the trade Iggy camp is, this is no slump, he's washed up. His best days are behind him. I don't think this is true. Not on this team. On this team he plays top minutes. He has Crosby's role. Difference maker.

Look around at teams, would Iggy have that role on those teams? What would they give in return? Which type of team would want him? A team with a top 5 draft pick? What do you expect in return? An established young top player? Any first round pick? Look at any teams draft class, how many out of an entire class make it to NHL? There is no certainty. Keeping in mind how Iggy produced last year, how many players in the history of the league score like Iggy has? You're gonna automatically replace that in next years draft? What is the historical return for trades involving players in similar situation to Iggy ie productive player around 35? Look at post 2005 so salary cap and influence of younger players for cheap in league is factored in.

I think the real return on the market would be so underwhelming. That return would have very little chance of making an impact of equal quality to what we have with both of Iggy/Kipper.

If you look at the trade that brought Iggy here: Nieuwendyk left but Fleury was still here (probably some other good players too). The organization is not ready for that today (young players to step up). Calgary would lose all integrity. It would be a nightmare.

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#29 RossCreekNation
December 01 2011, 01:24PM
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I'm sorry, but why are people penciling in guys like Reinhart & Holland for next season. That's quite a bit of a stretch.

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#30 T&A4Flames
December 01 2011, 01:28PM
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@Jeff Lebowski

"If you look at the trade that brought Iggy here: Nieuwendyk left but Fleury was still here (probably some other good players too). The organization is not ready for that today (young players to step up). Calgary would lose all integrity. It would be a nightmare."

We're going get there at some point anyway, it's all about how long we are in that situation. Getting a return on Iggy/Kipper can move us quicker through that pain.

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#31 Scott
December 01 2011, 01:35PM
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@Jayamania

I should apologize. I my to start a franchise player, like a Parise, or someone of that ilk. We have the cap space to sign a big name, younger guy, and if one is a UFA we should give it a run to see if we can't land one. If we can't then we can at least look on July 2 for a trade with a team that wants to shed salary. Maybe a Bobby Ryan becomes available at that time.

Philly has alot of picks in this upcoming draft. Anyone think we could do a deadline deal of Iggy to Philly for a 1st and schenn or Coutourier? Or if we are super lucky, we can give them anyother player on the roster and get Giroux in return?

Iggy and Tanguay for a 1st a Giroux?

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#32 Jeff Lebowski
December 01 2011, 01:48PM
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T&A4Flames wrote:

"If you look at the trade that brought Iggy here: Nieuwendyk left but Fleury was still here (probably some other good players too). The organization is not ready for that today (young players to step up). Calgary would lose all integrity. It would be a nightmare."

We're going get there at some point anyway, it's all about how long we are in that situation. Getting a return on Iggy/Kipper can move us quicker through that pain.

I don't believe that. The biggest problem that has affected Calgary since the lockout was the failure to adapt to the evolution of the game.

High end skill lost out to Brandon Prust in the draft philosophy.

Feaster has already changed that (and to be fair Darryl Sutter changed a little too: Backlund but far too late considering Pelech, Chucko etc).

Acquiring more talent can be done without trading Iggy/Kipper. Especially considering the upcoming salary freedom.

The question is what kind of return will you get from Iggy/Kipper. I say, not the kind this team needs to overcome their immediate and near term value.

Detroit has been able to draft exceptionally well while keeping their best assests. Calgary just needs to draft better players and acquire more skill via free agency.

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#33 Vintage Flame
December 01 2011, 01:52PM
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RossCreekNation wrote:

That makes 3 of us. Good coach, wrong team.

Make that 4!

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#34 Vintage Flame
December 01 2011, 02:08PM
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RossCreekNation wrote:

I'm sorry, but why are people penciling in guys like Reinhart & Holland for next season. That's quite a bit of a stretch.

You have better options to put in the lineup? ;)

Not so sure about Holland, but I think Reinhart is a pretty strong bet to be on the Flames next year.

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#35 Vintage Flame
December 01 2011, 02:14PM
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@Scott

Philly has alot of picks in this upcoming draft. Anyone think we could do a deadline deal of Iggy to Philly for a 1st and schenn or Coutourier? Or if we are super lucky, we can give them anyother player on the roster and get Giroux in return?

I think with the play of Crosby in Pittsburgh, Philly already feels behind the curve, and the 8-ball. They are definitely a team that should be in the market for Iginla. Schenn or Coutourier and a 1st is reasonable, but there is absolutely NO chance of the Flames getting Claude Giroux out of Philly. None whatsoever.

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#36 xis10ce
December 01 2011, 02:23PM
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@ Icedawg: I also sincerely hope we don't end up in 10th either, personally I'm still hoping for 13th or worse.

@ RossCreek: Coaches do have a shelf life, unless their names are Barry Trotz or Mike Babcock.

I couldn't agree more that it's time to shop these assets, failure to do so now will only result in more years of missed playoffs down the road, we are at a impass, failure to exit onto rebuild ave will result in a very long stretch on highway # suck. Hopefully while they are at it they rebuild the mgmt core too and start a whole new aged philophy with you know.... a GM that's actually a hockey guy and ins't the Presidents puppet.

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#37 Greg
December 01 2011, 02:24PM
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Last year would have been a better time to trade iggy when he was worth his cap hit. I don't know how many teams would be willing to take his $7M cap hit for next year with his current performance. I'd like to see Kipper moved as soon as a playoff bound team decides they need a goalie. It helps us move higher in the draft and gives a half-season to see what Irving and Karlson can do in an unmeaningful year anyway.

I'm definitely in the trade-iggy camp, but content to wait until next year when his contract becomes more tradable. If he really does want to stay here instead of take a cup run elsewhere though, he's earned it and I'm fine with that also.

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#38 RossCreekNation
December 01 2011, 02:25PM
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Jarome Iginla, David Moss & Henrik Karlsson to Nashville for Ryan Ellis, Colin Wilson, Patric Hornqvist, Anders Lindback & a 2nd.

Godd? Bad? Ugly?

Reasonable/unreasonable?

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#39 xis10ce
December 01 2011, 02:30PM
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I would be happy to 'settle' for Schenn, Couts and a 1st. Those guys will be future building blocks you can rely on.

As for your comments regarding PR Kent, didn't Holmgren say a few days before Carter and Richards got traded both of them were not going anywhere? Let's hope we are in the same scenario, no point in showing your cards at the poker table before you make a bet and get called.

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#40 icedawg_42
December 01 2011, 02:35PM
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Vintage Flame wrote:

You have better options to put in the lineup? ;)

Not so sure about Holland, but I think Reinhart is a pretty strong bet to be on the Flames next year.

Thats what I mean - we don't have ANY bluechip prospects still - Baertschi may well be very good, but he will never be a franchise guy.

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#41 Colin
December 01 2011, 02:46PM
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Probably the trade I like best so far would be:

Iginla + Karlsonn to the Flyers for Schenn, Vorachek(more money would need to come back, he fits the bill as I don't think the Flyers part with anyone else), Bobrovsky and a 1st rounder.

We get a potential #1 in Bob, with a backup in Irving, two good Forwards and a First rounder, probably a later one, but ours will probably be really high so its okay.

@RCN, that trade is good, but I'm not sold, I like Ellis but I don't, I don't mind small D men, but I still don't know if he can do it at an NHL level, if he could, I think Nashville would have him up right now cause they can use more offense.

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#42 BrianSheva
December 01 2011, 02:53PM
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I'd settle for trading Ken King to any willing takers for future considerations.

If there was any season where Flames' fans finally broke faith with Iginla, this would be it. You hear it on overtime, you hear it in sports bars and amongst office sports talk: Jarome Iginla needs to be moved. Does it make sense to trade him now? I don't think so - it would make more sense, in my mind, to move him closer to the trade deadline where teams who are looking to push for a cup run now will be willing to part with their prospects.

Off season changes to management HAS to happen. Is there any possible way we can lure Ken Holland or any other Detroit staff to lend their hockey expertise to our personnel?

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#43 Sincity1976
December 01 2011, 03:04PM
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@Colin

I don't think you get that much. Perhaps Iggy and Karlsson for Schenn and Bobrovosky. With peices for salary.

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#44 Colin
December 01 2011, 03:19PM
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Sincity1976 wrote:

I don't think you get that much. Perhaps Iggy and Karlsson for Schenn and Bobrovosky. With peices for salary.

I looked over the roster and I can't seem to find another guy other than Vorachek who would fit the bill to get some more dollars in the deal, can't really take anything from the defence, the other forwards are either guys they don't want to trade or wouldn't really help in the dollars department cause you havd to trade 2 or 3 of them and we are up at 50 contracts.

But Iggy is easily worth Schenn and a First, if Dusting ****ING Penner is worth the D prospect and a First, Jarome Iginla is worth Schenn and a first.

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#45 SmellOfVictory
December 01 2011, 03:26PM
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RossCreekNation wrote:

Jarome Iginla, David Moss & Henrik Karlsson to Nashville for Ryan Ellis, Colin Wilson, Patric Hornqvist, Anders Lindback & a 2nd.

Godd? Bad? Ugly?

Reasonable/unreasonable?

The main issue I see is that Nashville is far from a contender. The Flames may not get the best value from a contender, but I'd still really hate to see him traded to a team equally as bad as, or worse than, Calgary. The rumour mill has stated that Boston would be interested in him, and if that's the case then I'm all for it. They're not the strongest group of skaters, but they're above average on the whole, and Thomas is balls-out amazing. I could see them winning another cup.

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#46 Colin
December 01 2011, 03:33PM
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@SmellOfVictory

Boston? Boston traded away probably their best forward prospect last year to Toronto, what is left that we would want? I know they just drafted Hamilton, but would we want a Dman in return?

Thats the best place to send Iggy if we want to help him win the cup, but for helping the Flames, I don't see what we would get in return to help our offense out.

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#47 wawful
December 01 2011, 03:33PM
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Proponents of trading Iginla often (rightly) point out that Iginla came to Calgary only at the price of trading Joe Nieuwendyk. That trade was viewed very negatively at the time, but 20/20 hindsight has given it a decidedly rosy glow. However, what actually happened to the team after that trade? One first-round exit and then a seven year playoff drought. Was Al Coates a visionary genius who saw something special in Iginla? Probably not. Iginla was years away from being a viable NHL'er and Coates's hand was forced by Nieuwendyk's demand to be traded. Why did Nieuwendyk want to be traded? Well, the Flames had been gutted and were a shadow of their former selves. The infamous Gilmour trade of '91 saw to that. Why Calgary ever traded another player with Toronto after that is beyond my ken.

Yes, things are very different now with Iginla. Unlike Nieuwendyk, Iginla was never a part of a dynasty like the Flames of the 80's. Sure, that dynasty only won one cup, but that was only because of the Oilers at the zenith of the Gretzky days. Still, Nieuwendyk had a taste of being on an elite team and he clearly wanted more. Iginla has soldiered on with a supporting cast of mediocrities for his entire career and apparently he likes it. He wants to stay. Iginla has never asked to be traded. At least, as far as we know he hasn't...

Iginla has, publicly, never done anything but support a team that, quite frankly, has a snowball's chance in hell of winning a cup before he retires. He's a top competitor though, and on some level he must desperately want a real shot at Lord Stanley's Cup. What hockey player doesn't? The "I want to win the Cup as a Flame" routine might have been good a few years ago, but can he possibly still believe that tired old line? Let's say that there actually is some truth to the rumorus and Iginla actually did step into Feasters office and ask the man to trade him to a cup-contender.

What can we get for Iginla? A cup contender needs their marquee players. We're not going to get any form of currently elite player for Iginla. That's just not going to happen. The whole point of a cup-running team making a trade for Iginla is to make their current team better. The only way to get a currently elite player in return is to trade Iginla+ to a team that isn't making a cup run, and would Iggy wave his NTC for that? No, the only kind of trade that can possibly make sense is one for future potential. Rookies, prospects, and picks. This is a decidedly risky path however, especially for a team with Calgary's record at drafting and developing talent!

There is the notion of renting Iginla out. His contract is up after next season, and he could easily be traded this season or the next with the intention of returning in the Summer of 2013. A cup-contender could get a proven playoff producer without a long-term commitment and the Flames could get some prospects or picks, just for losing Iginla for as little time as between the trade-deadline of 2013 and the playoffs, or a season and change if such a rental is done this year instead. If those season's look like write-offs, why not cash in?

The only thing that is truly certain is that we, as fans, are going to hate any trade involving Iginla. If the trade goes *well* we're going to get players who will not produce short-term and run a risk of not producing even in the long-term. A rental probably will not bring quite the return that a trade with a more long-term commitment would either. Still, I do like the rental scenario, since if the Flames look like they're going to miss the playoffs in 2013 I'd love to see Iginla get one last crack at the cup. Who knows, perhaps what comes our way in such a trade will help the Flames make a cup run while Iginla is a veteran fourth liner winding up his career with the team he loves?

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#48 Jayamania
December 01 2011, 03:42PM
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xis10ce wrote:

I would be happy to 'settle' for Schenn, Couts and a 1st. Those guys will be future building blocks you can rely on.

As for your comments regarding PR Kent, didn't Holmgren say a few days before Carter and Richards got traded both of them were not going anywhere? Let's hope we are in the same scenario, no point in showing your cards at the poker table before you make a bet and get called.

Wow. That would be the trade of the century. No chance Philly would part with both Schenn and Couturier for Iginla. I'd guess they wouldn't part with either.

More realistic from Philly would be something like Matt Read, Matt Carle and a 1st. Maybe, maybe, maybe JVR and Carle and a 2nd.

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#49 SmellOfVictory
December 01 2011, 03:48PM
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Colin wrote:

Boston? Boston traded away probably their best forward prospect last year to Toronto, what is left that we would want? I know they just drafted Hamilton, but would we want a Dman in return?

Thats the best place to send Iggy if we want to help him win the cup, but for helping the Flames, I don't see what we would get in return to help our offense out.

If Boston would do Hamilton, I'd take that trade in a second. He's got ridiculous potential, he's huge, great offensively, reasonably fast, and allegedly is good defensively for his age.

At this point the Flames need a great defensive prospect as much as/more than a great offensive one. But even if Hamilton wasn't given up, you combine a couple of guys like Caron and Knight with a 1st round pick and you have a pretty solid return as well.

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#50 the-wolf
December 01 2011, 03:54PM
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@Jeff Lebowski

1) Where do you envision the team in 2 years with Iginla still here? Certainly won't be in the playoffs.

2) Is he worth now what he was 2 years ago? No, but plenty of GMs will offer something of value to get a guy who scored 43 goals last year to put them over the top. They'll think on their team, change of scenery, more offense, less pressure, etc. Quality, not quantity. Iginla is worth at least 1 top end prospect or high 1st rounder. At minimum.

3) You wouldn't have moved Iginla last year for Schenn? Really? The Avs 1st this year? No, there's no guarantees, but that's why you have a hockey ops dept. The Flames hockey ops dept. is a debate in and of itself, but it worked when we moved Fleury, Niewuendyk, Nilsson.

4) Would you prefer the Sundin scenario?

5) How do you get this talent you talk about replenishing? Pretending there's other ways than the draft is why the flames are where they are. All the finalists stars are drafted by them and so is basically half of their line-up. You get that one great asset and make it count.

6) Re: salary cap freedom - you still have to replace those roster positions. By the time you do that there's no longer $20 million sitting there for a spending spree and Calgary is no longer a UFA destination of choice and every year teams lock up their impedning UFA's earlier and earlier.

7) Get over it. The Iginla era is dead. It didn't work, won't work when he's 34 and by the time the prospects we do have start to really contribute he'll be 37/38.

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