Moss at Center?
Kent Wilson
August 26 2011 01:07PM
In all the discussions of potential line combinations this summer, the one that is mostly overlooked is the possibility of David Moss shifting from the right side to the middle of the ice. Flames fans will remember last year that Moss moved up the depth chart and skated a few games between Iginla and Tanguay before being felled by a knee injury in practice for the rest of the year.
I personally never seriously considered the possibility since Moss has been a winger for 99% of his career and the Flames have too many centers already. However, according to our own RossCreek on twitter, Jay Feaster admitted today that Brent Sutter prefers Moss at the center position.
The potential is an intriguing one. Moss had a big season last year with one of the highest ES scoring rates and corsi rates on the club. His personal scoring chance ratio in the games I counted was 56.4% at five-on-five as well. On top of all that, his btief stint as the top line center was mostly a success: Iginla's scoring chance ratio increased to 54.8% from 53.6 with Moss on his line while Tanguay's jumped from 53.4% to 64.1. The sample size was small (about 40 chances total) but there's some evidence the trio wasn't sunk by Moss' addition.
On the other hand, moving Moss over creates all sorts of problems elsewhere down the roster. It bumps the Flames number of NHL centers to six: Moss, Jokinen, Langkow, Stajan, Backlund and Morrison. Even if Morrison is down for the first part of the year and Stajan starts on the fourth line, there are still four centers jostling for three positions in the line-up. Moss at center means one of Backlund, Jokinen or Langkow moving to the wing.
Jokinen and Backlund are the most natural choices there given Langkow's the strongest two-way pivot on the club. I've been agitating for Jokinen to move to the wing for years, so if Sutter is serious about converting Moss permanently, that may be the way to go.
Coaches say all sorts of things in theoff-season that don't translate when the puck drops, so it's entirely possible Brent will change his mind at the first sign of trouble. That said, it's something interesting to consider at the end of August.
I love the idea of Moss as the top line center. I think he would be a good net front presence for the Flames. If they could somehow mold Moss into a guy that can park in front of the net and tip pucks then he would bring something to the team we haven't seen since Joe Nieuwendyk.
That being said Kent, what were Moss' numbers like in the face off circle?
@Vintage Flame
Fairly awful - 43%. I don't know if that's something he could be taught to improve or not though.
@Kent Wilson
The downside to that situation then is if Moss isn't strong on the dot, then the line is behind before the play starts. To my recollection, Iggy isn't exactly a great draw-man himself?
@Vintage Flame
Actually, Iginla is a great draw man.
The effects of face-offs are fairly muted. If you're withing 5% of .50 either way, it's not a big deal.
Gee whiz. With both Moss and Backlund you guys are going to have two first line centres.
~Better start planning that parade.~
I'm with you, Vintage. I threw this out last season. I think he's worth more parked in front of the net than his faceoff %. and I think that could improve... Why couldn't it??
If Moss is slotted inside Tanguay and Iginla... Where does Backlund go??
To me, at his age, Morrison's a winger. Better for him, too, at wing, with his age and recovery from the knee injury. Perhaps Morrison takes Moss's spot on the wing, with Glencross and Jokinen?
If anyone's moving to the wing... It's certainly Backlund or Stajan. Not Langkow. Not Jokinen. At least I don't see it being Jokinen. Perhaps Stajan is moved? That would certainly solve some of the log-jam, except - does Backlund centre Kostopoulos and Jackman? Seems unlikely.
Personally... even though I do like Moss centering Tanguay and Iginla... It's risky messing with the Glencross/Jokinen/Moss line. That line was great, many games....
@rubbertrout
Three if you also count Matt Stajan and four if you include Olli Jokinen!
Forgot about those guys. You might as well pencil in a Western Conference Finals appearance at the very least.
Stajan to LW, Jokinen to RW. BOOM!
All respect to Moss, but if he is our best chance to centre the number one line when we have Langkow, Stajan, Jokinen, Backlund, and Morrison all in line for the job, then I think we are in trouble.
The entire point of having a versatile forward that can play any position is to put him where you need. Not to convert other players into other positions in order to make room.
Now if they could convert Tanguay to centre I would be all ears. Unfortunately that seems like something that looks better on paper then in practice.
@Sincity1976
Langkow is the best option when it comes down to it, but Sutter has eschewed the "all eggs in one basket" plan since he arrived. With him out of the mix for 1st line center, it's pretty much wide open.
Really waht this means is that we will see line juggling for the first part of the season until Sutter finds the mix he is looking for. I think its more likely that Backlund finds the top line since the MGJ line has a proven body of work.
BTW, rubbertrout, isn't there something more fun to do than troll a flames blog? Its Edmonton, i'm sure there is a bum fight or two happening right now that you can probably bet on.
I would like these lines (iknow it will change and is only Aug...) Tanguay - Moss - Iginla Bourque - Backlund - Jokinen Glen X - Langkow - TK Bouma - Morrison - Jackman
Yah that is right no Stajan or Hagman...
@Emir
@Rubbertrout
A bum fight would be a good deal more entertaining then the AHL team they're trying ice in Edmonton.
Interesting take on Moss going to center, but I like him better on the wing. Plus, it's hard to imagine him at center, given the logjam there and the option to use Morrison, if needed. Also, Sincity makes a great point:
"The entire point of having a versatile forward that can play any position is to put him where you need. Not to convert other players into other positions in order to make room."
I just listened to the interview where Jay made that comment. At around 12:34 Aug 26 on: http://www.630ched.com/Other/audiovault.html
He made the comment that Brent likes Moss at centre, but followed that up with how TK-Moss-Jackman were great at producing in a fourth line role. He commented that Langkow should slot in on the third line. He also made a comment that Backlund was on the top line out of necessity but is coming into camp in shape to show he can slot into a top 2 centre role.
He was very high on Morrison and claimed that you can track them falling out of the playoff race to when he got injured. I am getting the sense they see him on the top line unfortunately.
He was also very high on Glencross and said that Glencross doesn't know how good he is.
Based on the interview I would pencil the line-up to: Tanguay-Morrison-Iginla / Glencross-Jokinen-Bourque / Backlund-Langkow-Hagman / TK-Moss-Jackman / XX PLL or Ivanan-Stajan with Stajan and Backlund working to move up. Of course it is a pre-camp interview with the GM.
Very comprehensive interview. Worth a listen.
Dude, you think this is trolling? I've been commenting here from the beginning.
Todd is a troll. I think what I do is good natured ribbing. If this is trolling your skin is waaaay too thin.
Vintage said yesterday that Backlund should be the number one centre. Today it's Moss. Neither are anything to write home about. If he really thinks both are number ones this team has issues
"They're" not "their". Thanks for coming out though.
@rubbertrout
No problem RubberBoot,
It's just good natured fun, but you may want to be careful about who your calling thin skinned. Maybe you should go on over to the Oilers site and continue Fisting each other.
Bye bye now.
@rubbertrout
Rubbertrout you are looser.
Your team up north will never amount to anything except a training for the other NHL teams. Just like the Islanders are in the East. Your kidding youself if you think those guys are going to want to stay there once they become more seasoned.
Moss did show some value last year however I am anxious to see if he can follow it up this year.
i like the postion the Flames are in this year the team is healthy and no significant changes to deal with this year. The flames will be a pleasant suprize this; prediction 5th place in the west.
Easy now, rubbertrout's a good fella & put up with me over at ON when there were 3 readers here. He's no troll, and if I'm not mistaken, he actually resides in Ctown. If we can't go visit the other Nation sites and have a little fun with eachother, then what's the point.
@ChinookArch
"You're" not "your".
Also take a look at what I said and what you said. I'm managing to take shots without resorting to saying things like "bum fights" and "fisting". Stay classy bro.
@ Islanders of the North
"Loser" not "looser". There is an edit button for a reason.
@RossCreekNation
Thanks for the backup my friend! As I've said many times you are a good guy (for a Flames fan that is). As RCN points out I'm an Oiler fan living in a hostile land but I have more than a passing interest in the Flames because I have season tickets. Vintage Flame and I have also had a few back and forths but it's all in good fun and we can manage to do so without resorting to trolling and name calling.
Haha. I found your comments to be hilarious, Rubber Trout. Nothing wrong with good-natured fun. Some guys need to chill-out on this site. It's August and grown men are getting all worked-up over what mediocre center or winger from last year is going to be penciled in as our first line center. And when someone points out this very fact with some satirical quips, they're up in arms and resort to bashing an entire city.
None of this, however, should detract from the fact that the Oilers are nothing more than whiny, snot-nosed, toddlers;)
MEDIOCRE!! MOSS IS A BEAST
"Looooooooser"
Get my drift......
Your such a genius!
If Sutter likes Moss at center, that means he would dismantle the Glen X - Joker - Mosser line if Mosser goes to the first line.
Sutter could swap Joker and Moss. The Glen X-Joker-Mosser line had a lot of chemistry last season.
More players playing different positions means lines having to jell and hoping things work out.
"What's so special about this game, anyway? It's just another chapter in the pointless rivalry between Springfield and Shelbyville. They built a mini mall, so we built a bigger mini mall. They made the world's largest pizza, so we burnt down their City Hall."
Edmonton is stink town with prospects, Calgary is hickville with a bare cupboard. Sucks for the both of us and our rivalry is kind of pitiful now. I respect any Oilers fan who can talk the talk and still take a good ribbing - no need to bring up the Whyte Ave bum fights.
Anyhoo, this whole Moss to center thing is a bit ridiculous. We have enough centers. What do we do with the ones we have if Moss gets moved? Stajan to wing? Stajan in goal? Stajan giving the boys towels and orange slices between periods?
@RossCreekNation
@ Rubbertrout
Alright, fine I got carried away and added my 2 cents to the bum fight comment. That said, can we keep the drive by's to a minimum, it disrupts the conversation. I personally like it when non-Flames fan chime in with there (oops I mean their) thoughts and views. We can all stand to hear a different opinion, and no one benefits from tunnel vision anyway.
@ChinookArch
Now if I can just get you to admit the mighty Oil are better we can move forward.
@BCFLAME
This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. I'm happy to talk trash like this.
@Islanders of the North
Regarding comment 24, you're halfway there. Just look at comment 22 at what I directed towards ChinookArch and you'll be all the way home.
RossCreek sent me something last night on twitter that is perfect for this situation. Should the two squads ever meet in May, all bets are off and I'll expect "bum fights" type comments. Of course the Oil will have traded away all their prospects and players for magic beans by then and the Flames will be geriatric. Here's hoping though.
@rubbertrout
Haha.. You're getting it pretty good right now eh?
Guys.. I'll put my moderater hat on for a bit.. Let's try and keep away from personal attacks okay. Stuff like "loser" or even "looser" is fine. But let's know when to draw the line.
Rubbertrout is far from a troll.. As he said we have had a few go rounds too.. But he does frequent here. Personally I think he is looking fro acceptance from our group but is shy. ;)
@Rubbertrout.. Fyi buddy. He did write "they're" not "their".. And no it was supposed to be "your" not "you're".
I love grammar cops.... Keep it fun people. No go to YOUR corners and come out swinging!
If this happened, I would like it. Line combinations like this?
Tanguay - Moss - Iginla
Glencross - Langkow - Bourque
Hagman - Backlund - Jokinen
Meyer?/Someone - Stajan - Jackman (is he back?)
I like the first 2 lines a lot in that scenario, 3rd line would have to be managed *very* carefully, and 4th line would likely do very well against other 4th lines.
NO. BACKLUND GOES ON THE FIRST LINE. BAWWWWWWWWW
@Subversive
Where do you slot Morrison?
@Subversive
Not too bad. Forgot Morrison and Kostopolous though.
Also, word is Ivanans is feeling better. Good news in human terms...bad news for the Flames. I mean, you can demote him to the AHL pretty easily, but even then I'd prefer he not take ice time away from anyone down there. Particularly since P3L will already be doing that.
I would hesitate to break up Glencross-Jokinen and Moss because that line played extremely well when they were put together. I think they have to give Backlund the shot to become a #1C. If all works out, these will hopefully be the forward lines:
Tanguay-Backlund-Iginla
Bourque-Langkow-Morrison/Stajan
Glencross-Jokinen-Moss
Kostopoulos-Stajan/Morrison-Jackman
If Morrison isn't ready to start the year I think they slot in Hagman possibly with Bourque and Langkow. Adding Moss at center would add to the logjam at center that the Flames already have. Thoughts on these lines?
Have to laugh at the Oiler Flame bantering, diaper boys versus grey balls:) Seems to me, what each team lacks the other has, seems to be perfect trading partners here. Seeing Daryl already poured urine on this right of passage from the beginning of time of no trades between the two of them, well pandora is out of the box. Seeing JBO & Bourque are Alberta boys, I would see no issues in them accepting a trade to Edmonpuke(sorry Edmonton :)) I can actually see some pretty interesting trade scenarios that could help both clubs. Too bad about that Alberta rivalry thing eh? Moss to centre doesnt make sense coming out of the gate. I only see that scenario out of neccessity via injury or lacklustre play. I also notice all our "forward depth" has unneccessary over paid players(Hagman/Stajan) sticking out like sore thumbs. Man, the longer this goes the more I wish Daryl just took White & a 2012 1st rounder out of Toronto.
Oh boy . . . we can hope or pray that there Is a market for a heavyweight early in the season. The flames are going to need to catch a break, as far as trades go this season. Injuries on other teams could force a trade for a veteran. If Bourque, Hagman or Stajan has a strong start, the team may be able to free up space as well. Well, we could hope anyway.
Since we're throwing out random lines - it is August afterall, what else is there to do - here's my kick at the cat with Moss at C.
Tanguay-Moss-Iginla
Glencross-Langkow-Bourque
Stajan-Backlund-Jokinen
Kostopolous-Morrison-Jackman
Jokinen played some RW earlier in his career in FLA before Keenan flip-flopped him & Viktor Kozlov RW/C.
Stajan played some W (I believe on both sides) in TO.
Frankly, I think we're stuck with Stajan for the foreseeable future & with the depth in numbers at C, I think he is the easy choice to convert to the W (regardless of whether or not Moss moves to the middle). Stajan has shown capabilities as a playmaker in the past, so I'd like to see him play with Bourque and/or Jokinen, perhaps even Glencross.
Keeping Hagman's $ of the books in the first half of the season could prove important if the club is in position to make a run & add a player come Feb.
And if Moss is kept on the W...
Tanguay-Backlund-Iginla
Glencross-Jokinen-Moss
Stajan-Langkow-Bourque
Kostopolous-Morrison-Jackman
Langkow & Backlund would flip-flop from game-to-game, shift-to-shift depending on performance/situation.
And I know I wrote it as Joker line 2, Langkow line 3, but I see it more as a 2A, 2B scenario.
Agree with your lines. Odd one out is Hagman, surely Feaster can get a 3rd round for him. Just a no fit & it should be Bouma & P3L shifting in from the press box for injuries & shakeup times.
I like this better than mine. I think Backlund between Iggy and Tanguay is likely a mistake, they need either Moss or Langkow to drive the puck up ice. Also, I refuse to include Invanis (or however the hell you spell it) in any of my plans for the Flames, I'm banking on him spending the year in the minors, or getting Kypreos'd early on.
Yeah I know your not a troll rubbertrout. Seen you on here alot actually, just the choice of words my part were not fitting. However I did want to stir the pot because it can be pretty funny when done right.
42 days till regular season home opener!
OK, I was checking the Regular Season Schedule & I see we play the Oilers 8 times & the Canucks 4 times. What's wrong with that picture?
Other than the fact that it's a guaranteed 16 pts... What's the problem?
@Vintage Flame
Hahaha nice one vintage! I believe it's supposed to be 6 times against Riot-ville and 6 times against Deadmonton.
http://flames.nhl.com/club/schedule.htm
Here is the link to the official regular season schedule
Should read: "Thanks for the backup my friend! As I've said many times, for a Flames fan, you are a good guy. As RCN points out, I'm an Oiler fan living in a hostile land, but I have more than a passing interest in the Flames because I have season tickets. Vintage Flame and I have also had a few back-and-forths, but it's all in good fun, and we can manage to do so without resorting to trolling and name calling."
That's better.
When B Sutter first arrived he juggled the lines around like crazy. The results were poor. The lines last year in the second half were somewhat stable and very effective. Great starting point for this year. Why mess around for the sake of messing around? The reason that Moss, Jackman, Morrison, Backlund, Jokinen moved forward last year was they were on the right lines. Jay's interview being high on Morrison is absolutely correct. He made the top line better and he should be on it unless he falters. Moss did just fine where he was and against the competition he faced. A team can't be consistent (which is the word of the day for winning teams) without line consistency so I'm all for leaving well enough alone, unless it breaks.