Five things: Now that it's official

Ryan Lambert
April 04 2012 08:04AM

1. The first of two hard questions

Whither Brent Sutter?

Sutter has been the Flames bench boss for just about three full seasons by this point and one suspects that it's time to start asking hard questions about his viability in the job for a fourth. Now, I'm not one of those "fire Sutter!!!" guys, per se. I think he was dealt three increasingly bad hands with these poor rosters and hasn't had a particularly large amount of help from the team's leadership, which seems content to have the occasional closed-door meeting and otherwise go-hard-to-the-net and we-know-we-have-the-answers away the increasingly valid concerns of the press.

Sutter is, I think, a pretty good coach, but one that ultimately must face the axe for this season and, less apparently, seasons past. Again, I don't think it should happen, but I think I'd bet a large amount of money that it will. Firing Sutter serves two positive purposes for the organization, in my view:

1) Most obviously, it's the showy "shakeup the organization needs to right the ship" even if there are few coaches who could have done significantly better than Sutter has in the past three years. People in general, and probably ownership specifically, want to see some blood splashed around after this season, and understandably so. Sutter, gruff, short and increasingly frustrated, makes a pretty easy sacrificial lamb.

2) Feaster gets to bring in His Guy, whoever that is, and then the organization can claim to be of one mind on whatever direction in which it happens to shamble off over the next season or three.

Meanwhile, Sutter will go on to successfully coach wherever he ends up successfully coaching, and everyone's happy. 

2. And now the second, much harder one

Whither Jarome Iginla?

(This is one that likely leaves no one happy.)

There is no question in my mind that this was arguably the worst season of Jarome Iginla's career since he became Jarome Iginla in bolded and underlined letters. And given that he'll be 35 on July 1 — the easiest birthday in hockey to remember after Wayne Gretzky's, but only because the, ahem, Great One and I share a birthday — it's time to start asking very serious questions about his future with the team.

We all see now that Jay Feaster's assertion that the Face of the Franchise and Best Player to Ever Wear a Flames Jersey was untouchable (this during the now-infamous, to me anyway, Going For It interview session) was misguided, and ultimately a symbol of everything bad about this doomed season: obstinate stubbornness, betting on the wrong horses and generally being disappointments chief among them.

I was shocked, actually, to see the number of people in the comments last week when I raised the question about Iginla and Kiprusoff's futures with the team who thought one or both should be gone this offseason. I was more shocked to see that the many were vociferous in their willingness to ship out Iginla for whatever package he may fetch at the draft. 

A sticky situation. On the one hand he's Jarome Iginla, for all that means to the city and the organization, particularly in terms of monetary value. And surely, for every internet commenter who wants him gone, logically enough, there will likely be 10 or even 100 ready to personally-and-by-hand tear down the Saddledome brick by brick the second he's traded for who-knows-what-and-whom.

The obvious risk is that Iginla plays out this contract, and perhaps his career, as a $7 million second-line forward getting first-line minutes because of who he is, and I'm not sure who that benefits besides the hearts of fans who should have already had those organs damaged by the organization more or less wasting the entirety of one of the great careers of the last 15 years.

It's hard to see him rebounding next year. It's hard to see him playing somewhere else.

Things, it seems, are hard all over.

3. Sucks to be Olli Jokinen
Olli Jokinen can't win for losing.

If I had told you in September Jokinen would be pushing Jarome Iginla for the team lead in points at the end of the season, top 60 for the first time since he left Florida and generally have a really good year for a guy making his money, you'd have been ecstatic with all of it.

But as the Flames collapsed this season, Jokinen, whose name had been more or less omnipresent on the scoresheet for much of the first two-thirds of the campaign, sank back into being more or less that the general perception of Olli Jokinen is. Or at least, that's what a few people would have you believe.

In the last little while, I've been fairly surprised to see people making him a scapegoat, as though this mess is in any way his fault. The headline in the Herald, for a story I didn't even bother to read, went something like "for this disappearing act, he doesn't deserve to come back."

What a load of shit.

Jokinen coming back likely isn't conducive to much in the way of winning, just because nothing is, but let's not act as though any of the collapse has anything to do with him. Disappearing act? He had 10 points in March, which isn't great or anything for 17 games, but it's not bad either, especially at his price point. I guess the argument is that Jokinen didn't have any points in that five-game losing streak that brought the season to an end for all intents and purposes, and that's fair enough. Know who else didn't? Jarome Iginla.

I'm all for pillorying everyone who deserves it over this season, Jokinen ain't one of 'em.

4. What might be most disappointing

Team is directionless and we really learned absolutely nothing about anything.

All we knew about it in October was: It was going to finish somewhere between eighth and 11th and it was old and getting older. It didn't have a lot of young talent (Sven Baertschi excluded). There were too many holes and question marks that needed addressing but likely could not be addressed, handcuffed as the team was by its egregious cap constraights.

And now, almost 82 games later: It looks like it's going to finish in 10th place at best and it's now officially an older team. It still doesn't have a lot of young talent (Sven Baertschi excluded). There are still a lot of holes and question marks, and it's unclear how Feaster is going to address them.

Do they blow it up? Who knows. Do they stick with it? Seems more likely but not particularly advisable. How many guys get shipped out? How many come in? How does all that happen? So many questions. Hopefully — hopefully! — we actually get some answers this time around. I hate to be right about everything in situations like this, but my tendency toward told-ya-soism compels me to write that I very much told ya so, and I'm annoyed by that fact. If I, and lots of other people, can see this, why can't anyone in a position of power?

5. There is good news however...

This regrettable deathmarch of a season is just days from its end, and there's probably going to be a lot of people getting beheaded over it. Whether they're the right heads, I guess, remains to be seen.

 

686dfac3780611cb7acad6ce5166c6c1
Yer ol' buddy Lambert is handsome and great and everyone loves him. Also you can visit his regular blog at The Two-Line Pass or follow him on Twitter. Lucky you!
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#1 Bean-counting cowboy
April 04 2012, 08:34AM
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On Olli - I agree you can't blame the entire collapse on him as some have. However I also don't think he's as good as his numbers this season suggest. If you look at his body of work & average it out - he hasn't been that good for Calgary.

Many suggested early on that his play this season warrants another contract - I was just about hopping on that bandwagon, but when you think that his deviation from the mean happened to transpire in a contract year & that he will only be older next year & the next & so on... plus add in that he has hardly sniffed the playoffs in his playing career, I am completely against a re-sign.

We should have asked him to waive his NTC at the deadline.

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#2 Graham
April 04 2012, 08:34AM
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1 - Sutter - gone, good guy, worked extremely hard, but stubbornly failed to adapt his 'system' to something more suited to the Flames actual talent / ability / style of play.

2 - Iggy - likely stays as a $7 million 'second line' talent. Ownership wants him to retire in a Flames jersey. Could see him move as a rental to a cup contender next trade deadline, then resign with Flames as a UFA the following year. Retires a Flame.

3 - Olli - stays, biggest fear that Feaster will overpay. Poor free agency talent pool at 'c', Olli may be one of the better guys on the list.

4 - no quick answers from management. We have to go through another Ken King, long drawn out, 'top down' organizational review. Flames will miss out on the opportunity of signing several top coaches due to 'top down review' and organizations lack of decision making.

5 - don't count on it, status quo reigns supreme in Kings world. We may have to suffer through one more year befire anything really changes.

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#3 Subversive
April 04 2012, 09:15AM
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Even though the local media has it completely wrong regarding Olli, I'm glad, simply because the narrative will hopefully keep the Flames from overpaying to re-sign the Sex Panther.

I think what's most disconcerting about the whole situation is the fact that a ridiculous media narrative is likely to have more to do with what happens to a player than any actual analysis by the management team.

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#4 VK63
April 04 2012, 09:43AM
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I think the support for an Iginla trade must be tempered with the realization that most who want him out of here also have him massively over valued.

Sadly Mike Milbury is no longer a GM so the 3 franchise players coming back scenario is highly unlikely and also laughable.

Hes a largely worn out warhorse, and he aint worth much to anyone but the flames....... sadly.

AND

If king stays.... then the entire exercise shall continue to be putting lipstick on a pig. Its what he knows and apparently all he is capable of. Or in other terms....... thank god for oil patch money.

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#5 Scott
April 04 2012, 10:04AM
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Olli gave us all more than we expected this year, whether it was due to luck, or just fitting his role. Either way, having to listen to Mike Rogers and other media guys throw Olli under the bus in regards to the 5 game losing streak made me sick. Somehow it was only one guy who played really bad which threw off glenx, and iggy and tangs and gio and kipper. Olli must be a very strong voice in the lockerroom if his play alone, affects everyone elses play on the ice.

Give me a break. This team collapsed just like they did last year. Partially due to luck running out and partially due to running out of steam at the end of long push.

I hope they bring olli back, but for no more than the $3 mil he earned this year.

EDIT: The media in this town need to stand up to the team and challenge the management and coaches, instead of blaming the players for every little problem.

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#6 Robert Vollman
April 04 2012, 10:18AM
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I hate to say "get rid of X" because these are real people and I sure wouldn't like it if someone told me I should lose my job.

That being said, it's really hard to put together a pro-Sutter argument right now. Hartsburg will probably get his shot next year.

As for Jokinen, a 2-year $5.5M deal would be great, but knowing the Flames he'll probably get something more Tanguayesque: 5 year $15M (or more). Which would suck.

Player value is highest up to age 26-27, when they're improving. Beyond that you generally have to pay full dollar for them, and some of them even start to decline.

It might be wiser to let Jokinen go and give that same contract to a 24-year-old who isn't quite as good, hoping he grows into it (and beyond).

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#7 Kevin R
April 04 2012, 10:35AM
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1-Sutter- I agree with Graham. Good coach, does have structure but didnt adapt to the personality and abilities of his veteran core. You would think after 2 years of failure he would have realized his model didnt work. But thats the Sutter trait, stubborn, determined & relentless.

2-Iggy- We missed the boat last year & especially the year before to max out his value. This summer, I agree, his value is minimal due to fitting a 7.0mill contract on a 2nd line scoring forward. Best time sell will be next trade deadline, his value will spike up more than the many posters who think some of us over value him. He'll do his 30 goals next year & start to play dominantly like usual come mid Dec thru to Feb. He will be the hottest rental player next year & we dont need just a Milbury to roll the dice on his prorated cap hit at that time. That he doesnt neccessaroily need to relocate his family for the final 45 days of the season & playoff run. Then, who knows what he does as a UFA, but at least Calgary doesnt pull a Dallas style Brad Richards.

3-Olli- Yeah tough to paint this guy for our problems. He would be a great veteran piece of amajor youth movement. He should be a 3rd line centre & capable of moving up to 2nd line when needs arise. Therefore if you sign him. it has to be according to projected role on team & paid accordingly. Absolutely not paying for his good value 60+ points this season when we got hosed for his 5.5mill eggs he laid before. Did he give any of that money back?? I say a glencross type deal, max & I mean max 3 year deal @ a cap hit of 2.5mill(4.0mill,2.0mil & 1.5nill) with no NT or NM in the last year.

4-5-Management/King/Feaster- I know & I share the sentiment of cleaning house starting at the top but face reality, Feaster & King are going no where. Depending on how they deal with this mess & they will get the chance to deal with it, next year the top cleansing will have more credibility. Lets pray what Graham so well described the Management style does not happen this June/July.

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#8 jeremywilhelm
April 04 2012, 10:59AM
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Keenans interview today is both intriguing and disturbing. The Flames organization is quickly entering the realm of the Oilers ans Islanders for clowm show.

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#9 schevvy
April 04 2012, 11:08AM
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Well, with another disappointing season wrapping up I suggest we get behind a bandwagon. LET'S ALL TRY AND VOTE TO GET MATTY FRANCHISE ON THE COVER OF NHL 13!!!!

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#10 everton fc
April 04 2012, 11:29AM
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jeremywilhelm wrote:

Keenans interview today is both intriguing and disturbing. The Flames organization is quickly entering the realm of the Oilers ans Islanders for clowm show.

And this is the fault of the President and GMs, including Feaster. They put the players on the payroll.

Graham is pretty close to my sentiments.

"1 - Sutter - gone, good guy, worked extremely hard, but stubbornly failed to adapt his 'system' to something more suited to the Flames actual talent / ability / style of play."

Agree. I'll throw out the names I always throw out - fresh faces from the AHL. Jon Cooper in Norfolk. John Hynes in Wilkes-Barre. Even Todd Nelson in Oklahoma City (he may end up the next Oilers bench boss, though). And then there's Dallas Eakins, whose very good with young players... If we are moving into a "youth movement"... a young coach who gets player buy-in is what we need. Eakins may be ont to look at. Hynes has had great success w/the US team's development.

2 - Iggy - likely stays as a $7 million 'second line' talent. Ownership wants him to retire in a Flames jersey. Could see him move as a rental to a cup contender next trade deadline, then resign with Flames as a UFA the following year. Retires a Flame.

Iggy should be the RW on our 2nd line. If you could get Statsny, a 1st line of Baertschi/Statsny/Iginla would be a good one. I don't think the return for Iggy will be all that good. And he did score 30 goals on a team that doesn't score much.

3 - Olli - stays, biggest fear that Feaster will overpay. Poor free agency talent pool at 'c', Olli may be one of the better guys on the list.

Olli should be the 3rd line centre. We'd have a good 3rd line w/Glencross/Olli/Stempniak. As part of a rational rebuild. You sign him for 2 years max, hometown discount, or let him walk. Gaustad's available, and fits a 3rd line role, not to mention he can win faceoffs. Brodziak would also be a good 3rd line centre, if they go w/Backlund in the #2 slot (or perhaps they give Horak a full season as #3 centre, with Stempniak on one wing, and let Jokinen walk. Cammy could centre the 2nd line, Glencross on the LW, a free agent on the RW. Just soem thoughts)

4 - no quick answers from management. We have to go through another Ken King, long drawn out, 'top down' organizational review. Flames will miss out on the opportunity of signing several top coaches due to 'top down review' and organizations lack of decision making.

King is going nowhere. We all know this. I still hope we go for a new GM/coaching combo. I do not trust Feaster - look at the Tanguay deal. Look at the offer to Richards. Look how we got fleeced (in my opinion) in the Regher deal. Look at the Babckuk signing. The PL3 signing. Why people trust him because he drafted Baertschi... ??? Most teams would have taken Sven in that same spot. for two straight seasons, with this team on the cusp of the playoffs, Feaster did nothing. He believed in this group. Or so it seems. And if his hands are tied that much by King... then why do we need him and Weisbrod, who seems to have a lot of clout in this organization. Why not shoot for the stars? Nill. Fenton. Boterril. Hextall. And so on. Why not go for it, show the fans you really mean business, the status quo doesn't work anymore, and so on. Perhaps King is a classic choleric who needs to have total control, neutering anyone who could change the direction of this franchise??

5 - don't count on it, status quo reigns supreme in Kings world. We may have to suffer through one more year befire anything really changes.

See #4 above.

@Robert V

"It might be wiser to let Jokinen go and give that same contract to a 24-year-old who isn't quite as good, hoping he grows into it (and beyond)."

Like Derick Brassard?

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#11 the-wolf
April 04 2012, 11:31AM
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VK63 wrote:

I think the support for an Iginla trade must be tempered with the realization that most who want him out of here also have him massively over valued.

Sadly Mike Milbury is no longer a GM so the 3 franchise players coming back scenario is highly unlikely and also laughable.

Hes a largely worn out warhorse, and he aint worth much to anyone but the flames....... sadly.

AND

If king stays.... then the entire exercise shall continue to be putting lipstick on a pig. Its what he knows and apparently all he is capable of. Or in other terms....... thank god for oil patch money.

Here's my issue with that - what is Iginla worth to the Flames? Outside of jersey sales? He's a one-dimensional 2nd line 30 goal scorer. Who is 35 for next season. So, does that really help this team? the 2nd oldest teamin the league that can't even make the playoffs? Different story if we were the Red Wings, but when you put those 2 things together where's the value in keeping him?

I've advocated trading Iginla for over 4 years. "Trade him while he's still got some prime years left and we can get a massive, quality package back!" As far as I know, I came up with the damn Sundin/Toronto West comparison. And I was right. Nostalgia and jersey sales reign supreme over trying to wina Cup.

Back then, people stated that other teams would have to give up so much that the trade would be impossible. Now, he's not worth anything. Strange.

From a pure hockey asset standpoint, keeping Iginla gives the team very little. Not even seeing what's out there is just plain ignorant and stupid.

It's all a question of what the organization and fans want. A team that tries to scratch into 8th every year, just making the playoffs being its version of the Cup based on the idiotic assumption that 'anything can happen?'

Or a team that makes the playoffs every year with certainty and has a legit shot at winning some rounds every year?

Yes, a rebuild takes time and is painful. B-O-O-H-O-O. The current state of the team is more painful as there is no future, there is no hope. Had the rebuild begun 4 years ago we'd be reaping the payoff now.

So move Iginla for the best deal out there and if nothing else we finish worse and get a higher draft pick. Sounds trite, but I have zero appetite to watch version 6.0 next season.

Feaster had last year's trade deadline, last year's draft and this year's trade deadline. 3 shots at going in a new direction and 3 wasted opportunities in order to follow the same old path of mediocrity.

As for Joker, I agree with Bean-counting Cowboy.

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#12 Tach
April 04 2012, 11:42AM
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@Robert Vollman

"5 year $15M (or more). Which would suck."

Why do you give them ideas like this!? I threw up in my mouth a little just reading it.

On the rest of Lambert's stuff I only have comment on Sutter and Iginla.

1. Sutter-Agree. He had a roster that was probably in the band for the 7-8 spot for three years and went 0 for 3 getting them there. That is probably enough to justify not renewing. I just hope that whatever coach FeaKing hires it is with some eye on what the potential roster will do and how it will fit with the coach's system. I don't think that was part of the original Sutter hiring at all.

2. I still think there may be value in keeping Iginla in excess of his $7 million contract, especially if you consider how that might play into getting a discount on his later future years. Don't underestimate how hard it is to get a 30 goal scorer, even as PP specialist and second comp muncher.

The irony is that as he approaches the end of his contract, his trade value keeps going up. He is probably more valuable on the trade market now, than he was last off-season and probably will have good rental value (Paul Gaustad got a 1st rounder, what could Iginla fetch?) at the deadline, as was pointed out by Kevin R. above.

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#13 the-wolf
April 04 2012, 11:44AM
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"Perhaps King is a classic choleric who needs to have total control, neutering anyone who could change the direction of this franchise??"

The fact that he needs to be President of every sports team in the city makes that evident.

In reality though, he's just Edwards axe-man. Better ways to make money than a sports fracnhsie, so if you're going to buy one than one would think winning would be the one and only goal. This team spends to the max only so that it can compete enough to fill seats and that is all.

Eventually though, 2004 is going to be as distant a memory as 1989.

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#14 everton fc
April 04 2012, 11:59AM
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@wolf

"Feaster had last year's trade deadline, last year's draft and this year's trade deadline. 3 shots at going in a new direction and 3 wasted opportunities in order to follow the same old path of mediocrity."

Agreed. Which is why Feaster should be gone.

But he won't. I already know this. So I don't get my hopes up too high here.

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#15 Robert Vollman
April 04 2012, 12:21PM
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@everton fc

24-year-old Brassard's cap hit is a little higher (2-years $6.4M), and saying that he is "not quite as good" as Jokinen would be very charitable.

But basically yes, this is a very stretched-out version of the right idea.

@Tach

Tangs got 5-years $17.5M at age 31. Kipper got 6-years $35M at age 32. Jokinen in 33, prepare yourself for a long-term contract above $3.0M per.

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#16 shutout
April 04 2012, 12:25PM
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1. I dont see how the Flames go forward with Brent Sutter. I think that he is a very smart coach, but he is also a person with strong beliefs in how the game needs to be players and a personality that wont quit. I actually see him coaching the Oilers in the 2013-14 season after they dumpt Rennney next year. The Flame will need to not renew Sutter because they will need a fall guy for missing the playoffs for the last three years. Not a "scapegoat" but a fall guy. The team is not talented enough to make the playoffs, regardless of the coach, but there were decisions that Sutter made that you know were based on ego and having to prove he was right.

2. While I advocate moving on from Iginla and looking for trade options, I dont think that the issue is as yes or no as many pundits or fans seem to want to make it. I think that the minimum you look at for Iginla is a 2012 first round draft pick and one of a teams top three prospects. I might take a second round pick and two prospects in the 3-7 range from a team as well. I am not sure that you could get much more, but I do think that this is achievable, especially looking at the package that was reported for Nash. I dont trade Iginla if the return is not right, and does not have a chance to be impactful for the franchise.

3. Olli can come back for two more years at a maximum of $3M with a modified NMC for the first 18 months. Anything more than this is going to be a terrible contract. Funny thing is that around Christmas I would have went to him and offered him a three year $3-4M deal if he would have waived his NTC this year. Jokinen is an okay NHL centerman that will help fill a void on the Flames for a couple of years until they can see if their prospects are as advertised. Plus he really helps Glencross with his game.

4. The direction of the Flames is not going to change. They wont bring back Sutter and they will use the number of injuries as reasons for missing the playoffs this year. They will stick their head in the sand and probably over pay some of our players that should be set adrift. Their game plan will be to throw obscene gobs of money at the top end free agents in hopes that one of them is greedy beyond being smart or that trips by accident and signs their name when they did not mean to. The mantra from the top will be how the team played amazing for two January's and February's in a row and that they just need better skills in the shootout which will happen with Baertschi and Kolanos joining the team next year.

The Feaster quote for January 2013 will be "... fool me twice shame on you, fool me a third time and shame on ..."

5. Good news is that there should be a market for teams that might getting into a bidding war in terms of looking at Kiprusoff. I find it hard to believe that Washington, Toronto, and Tampa Bay would not be willing to give up a top prospect for the chance of getting Kiprusoff. All three of those teams would be in or really close to the playoffs with better goaltending and they wont want a rival getting Kiprusoff instead of them.

Entice $$$ Ramo to come over already this summer and let him and Irving move forward with the franchise.

Hope that other teams are amazed by Doughty and Karlsson and let Radek Faksa slip down to us. And then we draft Tim Bozon with a second late first round or early second round pick that we work to acquire.

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#17 Kurt
April 04 2012, 12:33PM
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the-wolf wrote:

Here's my issue with that - what is Iginla worth to the Flames? Outside of jersey sales? He's a one-dimensional 2nd line 30 goal scorer. Who is 35 for next season. So, does that really help this team? the 2nd oldest teamin the league that can't even make the playoffs? Different story if we were the Red Wings, but when you put those 2 things together where's the value in keeping him?

I've advocated trading Iginla for over 4 years. "Trade him while he's still got some prime years left and we can get a massive, quality package back!" As far as I know, I came up with the damn Sundin/Toronto West comparison. And I was right. Nostalgia and jersey sales reign supreme over trying to wina Cup.

Back then, people stated that other teams would have to give up so much that the trade would be impossible. Now, he's not worth anything. Strange.

From a pure hockey asset standpoint, keeping Iginla gives the team very little. Not even seeing what's out there is just plain ignorant and stupid.

It's all a question of what the organization and fans want. A team that tries to scratch into 8th every year, just making the playoffs being its version of the Cup based on the idiotic assumption that 'anything can happen?'

Or a team that makes the playoffs every year with certainty and has a legit shot at winning some rounds every year?

Yes, a rebuild takes time and is painful. B-O-O-H-O-O. The current state of the team is more painful as there is no future, there is no hope. Had the rebuild begun 4 years ago we'd be reaping the payoff now.

So move Iginla for the best deal out there and if nothing else we finish worse and get a higher draft pick. Sounds trite, but I have zero appetite to watch version 6.0 next season.

Feaster had last year's trade deadline, last year's draft and this year's trade deadline. 3 shots at going in a new direction and 3 wasted opportunities in order to follow the same old path of mediocrity.

As for Joker, I agree with Bean-counting Cowboy.

"Yes, a rebuild takes time and is painful. B-O-O-H-O-O. The current state of the team is more painful as there is no future, there is no hope. Had the rebuild begun 4 years ago we'd be reaping the payoff now."

^^ WHAT HE SAID

I wonder if Feaster will have the guts to take back his comments about never doing a rebuild.... If not we are doomed to middling mediocrity and scratching/clawing for 8th perpetually.... At best.

The last 3 years sucked the big one, and we have NOTHING to show for it. Iggy is worth less, and besides Baertschi who is still unproven we have nothing to show for our failures. At least if we would have faced the music a few years back we'd have hope for the future.

Blow it up now. I'd say nobody should be untouchable and we should trade anyone who can breath for draft picks. Otherwise we are just the Western Conference Maple Laughs.

I dread the day when my Oiler buddies shove it my face, and bring up the fact that neither team made the playoffs in recent history but they are now an emerging superpower and we are drifting into pure suck still. I fear its coming next year, and there isn't much we can do about it now. Fans keep saying "we are becoming the Oilers..." But we aren't. I WISH we were the Oilers, and had exciting 20 year old kids who will be superstars for 10 more years. Instead we spend our time debating if they sign Iggy to a sunset contract, and offer Oli a contract extension so he can maybe get another 60pt season!! Like 60pts is something to get exciting about.

I'm tired of this gong show.

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#18 RexLibris
April 04 2012, 01:04PM
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@the-wolf

My friends and I here in Edmonton raised the Sundin/Leafs comparison a few years back in relation to Iginla and the Flames but I didn't want to bring it up here.

As for the rebuild being painful, yes it is. But which is worse, a few years of pain towards moving in a direction, or the perennial situation that Flames fans endure now?

As for the validity of a rebuild, the Flames have two choices, as I see it. One, rebuild like the Leafs, Montreal, Columbus, Buffalo and others that tried to purchase their core players in a fit of free agency or draft them. In order to draft them the Flames need to make room on the roster and that means trading away marketable assets that aren't of any use on the club. That means aging goaltenders and floating wingers who don't provide any defensive awareness for others to follow.

One thing I would keep an eye on though, if Feaster tries to say that the Flames have held people accountable and made drastic changes to the roster and the only bodies shipped out are the free agents that they simply chose not to, or were unable to, resign.

You know, intellectual honesty and all.

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#19 Bean-counting cowboy
April 04 2012, 01:22PM
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Next trade deadline - trade Iginla & Stajan for Jordan Staal & a (late) 1st rounder and (or) depth winger. If Stajan doesn't get it done, replace Stajan with Backlund.

Pit. is swamped up the middle with great centerman. They get a legit 3rd line center in Stajan/Backlund & veteran leadership to go beside Crosby. Iggy gets his cup.

Staal gets the playing time he deserves & can center Calgary's top line with Glenny & Baertschi.

Tangs & Cammy can be more sheltered on the 2nd line, centered by either Backlund or Stajan.

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#20 jeremywilhelm
April 04 2012, 01:42PM
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Pittsburghs wingers and centers are all better than anything thr Flames have. They are not a viable trade target.

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#21 Kurt
April 04 2012, 02:29PM
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Bean-counting cowboy wrote:

Next trade deadline - trade Iginla & Stajan for Jordan Staal & a (late) 1st rounder and (or) depth winger. If Stajan doesn't get it done, replace Stajan with Backlund.

Pit. is swamped up the middle with great centerman. They get a legit 3rd line center in Stajan/Backlund & veteran leadership to go beside Crosby. Iggy gets his cup.

Staal gets the playing time he deserves & can center Calgary's top line with Glenny & Baertschi.

Tangs & Cammy can be more sheltered on the 2nd line, centered by either Backlund or Stajan.

See this comment points out the exact problem...

First off, fans think Iggy is worth a lot. He isn't. I read the Nash comparison somewhere in a comment above. Thats a complete joke, since Nash is almost a decade younger and in a different stratosphere than Iggy at this stage of their careers. Someone else suggested a first rounder AND 2 or 3 prospects? Good luck... Staal is a complete pipedream.

Secondly, the bigger issue is that we are dreaming of crazy trade scenarios where we could one day have Glencross on the 1st line. Sorry, but Staal, Glencross, Baerthschi isn't a number one line on a real team. Maybe on a scratch and claw for 8th team. And we are still hoping Baertschi makes the jump smoothly and becomes a star which is a real big longshot still.

So if our unrealistic dream trades land us a mediocre, middling 1st line, imagine what reality will get us.

Others have pointed out the great hope of free agency. The chances of any UFAs coming here must be less than zero. In this market UFAs get pretty even money on the open market, and choose based on a team that is going to be enjoyable to play on. The Oilers tried to pay Hossa $100 million or whatever and he took less to play in Detroit. Why would any UFA come here? To play with Glencross on the 1st line? I love the guy but you gotta be kidding me if you think GlenX is a 1st line forward.

Back to my previous points. There is no realistic option to get elite players on this team except to draft them. Trade everyone today, the sooner we start the pain the better.

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#22 kittensandcookies
April 04 2012, 02:32PM
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In regards to Olli, if the article in question is this one:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/hockey/calgary-flames/Jokinen+disappearing+warrants+ticket+town/6395404/story.html

I don't see where Johnson solely blames Olli for the team's problems.

And since Olli is now a UFA, yeah, I think he can go somewhere else now.

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#23 shutout
April 04 2012, 02:35PM
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@ Kurt

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#24 shutout
April 04 2012, 02:42PM
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@ Kurt

You are correct that the biggest problem with the fanbase is what they believe the value for Iginla is on the open market.

You will either get the pessemists that believe you might get a first round pick for him and wont advocate trading him because his value over the next five years will be more than that prospect.

On the other hand you have fans who believe that Iginla can fetch Jordan Staal or a handfull of picks and prospects.

Truth is that while he is not Rick Nash, he will provide a team with almost as much production and skill as Nash would. You wont get the Rangers offer for Nash for Iginla, but I would be willing to look at the deal if it involved 2-3 pieces of the deal instead of the five that they offered Columbus.

I first round pick and a top tiered prospect will probably be a realistic deal for the Flames if they look at Iginla. Give a team a list of three prospects that you want from them and they get to stike off one of them and you should get a pretty good piece going forward. I stress that it will only be a prospect that you would get. Young players already in the NHL provide much less risk and in some cases will be outscoring Iginla within the next three years.

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#25 the-wolf
April 04 2012, 02:45PM
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Kurt wrote:

See this comment points out the exact problem...

First off, fans think Iggy is worth a lot. He isn't. I read the Nash comparison somewhere in a comment above. Thats a complete joke, since Nash is almost a decade younger and in a different stratosphere than Iggy at this stage of their careers. Someone else suggested a first rounder AND 2 or 3 prospects? Good luck... Staal is a complete pipedream.

Secondly, the bigger issue is that we are dreaming of crazy trade scenarios where we could one day have Glencross on the 1st line. Sorry, but Staal, Glencross, Baerthschi isn't a number one line on a real team. Maybe on a scratch and claw for 8th team. And we are still hoping Baertschi makes the jump smoothly and becomes a star which is a real big longshot still.

So if our unrealistic dream trades land us a mediocre, middling 1st line, imagine what reality will get us.

Others have pointed out the great hope of free agency. The chances of any UFAs coming here must be less than zero. In this market UFAs get pretty even money on the open market, and choose based on a team that is going to be enjoyable to play on. The Oilers tried to pay Hossa $100 million or whatever and he took less to play in Detroit. Why would any UFA come here? To play with Glencross on the 1st line? I love the guy but you gotta be kidding me if you think GlenX is a 1st line forward.

Back to my previous points. There is no realistic option to get elite players on this team except to draft them. Trade everyone today, the sooner we start the pain the better.

Given what other teams have paid out in the past I think Iginla is worth a 1st and a B level prospect. Better than nothing though.

After all, GMs will look and say "he's a 30 goal scorer on a bad team and he's been to the finals and won Olympic gold. He will put us over the top and we will prevent other teams from getting him."

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#26 negrilcowboy
April 04 2012, 02:47PM
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Bean-counting cowboy wrote:

Next trade deadline - trade Iginla & Stajan for Jordan Staal & a (late) 1st rounder and (or) depth winger. If Stajan doesn't get it done, replace Stajan with Backlund.

Pit. is swamped up the middle with great centerman. They get a legit 3rd line center in Stajan/Backlund & veteran leadership to go beside Crosby. Iggy gets his cup.

Staal gets the playing time he deserves & can center Calgary's top line with Glenny & Baertschi.

Tangs & Cammy can be more sheltered on the 2nd line, centered by either Backlund or Stajan.

its going to take a package greater than iggy and stajan to get shero to even answer the phone. iggy and gio, iggy and jboo. gio and iggy. jordan stahl is a key component to the pens. iggy for kennedy,asham,vitale,jefferies, and a few others may be more viable. call dale tallon and see if iggie brings any interest.

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#27 shutout
April 04 2012, 02:55PM
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The 2012-13 Calgary Flames organizational strategic operating plan:

Do not renew Sutter, use him as a source of the problems.

Blame injuries, the media has already talked about them and the fans acknowledge this problem.

Praise the play in the months of January and February. By pointing to how well the team played during these months you will conjure up favourable memories for Flames fans.

Bemoan the fact that if they were only .500 in the extra time they would be in the playoffs. This will nicely dovetail from discussions about injuries and Sutter. Fantisize to the media (fanbase) about how Backlund is an amazing shootout talent that just needed to be healthy.

Throw big gobs of money at the high end free agents and proclaim that we came in 2nd place when they sign elsewhere. Like Richards last year, if we offer Suter and Parise $10M a year for ten years they will have to listen to our presentation and talk with Jarome over the phone while he waterskis. While we are not competative in making the playoffs the money will get them to consider the option. We dont really want to pay that much out, but its important to make the fans believe that we are trying to do everything possible to be competative.

Continue to talk about all you have to do is make it to 8th place in order to have a chance and about how it is the first year out of the salary cap prison so there needs to be some patience. Discuss at length the number of free agents that came off the books this summer. Make sure that fans know its really only the first year in the King-Feaster program for the organization.

Discuss Baertschi at length and bring him up at every opportunity. Discuss how his skill will help shootouts, how he was a big part of the February success. Important to continue to bring up his three goals in five games and remind fans that while it computes to a 48 goal season that he will only be a rookie next year and that we need to temper our expectations.

Discuss how Horak was a great trade and how you think that there is a chance we could have 3-4 rookies playing for the team next year which would be more than even Edmonton might get into its starting lineup next year.

Praise Murray Edwards for having lots of money, and for being such a generous owner. Remind the fans that they are lucky to have an owner like this compared to a team in Phoenix.

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#28 jr_christ
April 04 2012, 03:08PM
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Feaster should focus on if he wants that double patty in his cheeseburger or the triple patty.

Nothing is going to change for the flames this up coming year.

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#29 Kevin R
April 04 2012, 03:20PM
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Kurt wrote:

See this comment points out the exact problem...

First off, fans think Iggy is worth a lot. He isn't. I read the Nash comparison somewhere in a comment above. Thats a complete joke, since Nash is almost a decade younger and in a different stratosphere than Iggy at this stage of their careers. Someone else suggested a first rounder AND 2 or 3 prospects? Good luck... Staal is a complete pipedream.

Secondly, the bigger issue is that we are dreaming of crazy trade scenarios where we could one day have Glencross on the 1st line. Sorry, but Staal, Glencross, Baerthschi isn't a number one line on a real team. Maybe on a scratch and claw for 8th team. And we are still hoping Baertschi makes the jump smoothly and becomes a star which is a real big longshot still.

So if our unrealistic dream trades land us a mediocre, middling 1st line, imagine what reality will get us.

Others have pointed out the great hope of free agency. The chances of any UFAs coming here must be less than zero. In this market UFAs get pretty even money on the open market, and choose based on a team that is going to be enjoyable to play on. The Oilers tried to pay Hossa $100 million or whatever and he took less to play in Detroit. Why would any UFA come here? To play with Glencross on the 1st line? I love the guy but you gotta be kidding me if you think GlenX is a 1st line forward.

Back to my previous points. There is no realistic option to get elite players on this team except to draft them. Trade everyone today, the sooner we start the pain the better.

Kurt I cant agree with your assessment of the Iggy scenario. Gaustad is a 3rd line solid UFA & he got a 1st rounder at the trade deadline. I truly think Iggy will get us a late 1st rounder, a top 3 almost NHL ready prospect & if Feaster can get a bidding war may even score a conditional 2nd or 3rd rounder. That is not an unrealistic return for a top rental player for a cup run ready team at the trade deadline. If you cant get that return, then shutout is bang on & you dont trade him & try to convince him to take a home town discount for an extension. I am also not an advocate of just total dynamite and giving away players like Gio, GlenX & JBO for bags of pucks & sticks so we can suck that much worse. For those who want to just jettison JBO, what if he finally over achieves to expectation next year & we get a way better package at the trade deadline.

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#30 rickithebear
April 04 2012, 03:23PM
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Oilersfan: lives in Hanna listens to 960 and watches all flames games on Sportsnet.

- talked alot this year about moving iginla. Your return will not justify the loss of a guaranteed 30-30 player. who will drop to 5M in next contract and 3-4M in the 35+ years.

your forward set is has a good base. if you look at the 2 year average. (goals-Assists)

tanguay(20-40)-XXX(a)-Iginla(35-38)

Glencross(27-23)-Jokinen(23-37)-XXX

Cammalerri(30-20)-Stajan???-XXX

Based on NhLE from Desjardins these players should come in next year and produce Baertschi 25G-30A-55Pt 65pt by age 22. Rheinhart 15G-20A-35PT 45PT by age 22 Ferlund 17G-17A-34Pt 45Pt by 22 Backlund 12G-18A

It is said you need 1 30G scorer with a total of (6 20 Goal scorers or 10 10 goal scorers to be playoff competitive)

I see 3 potential 30G scorers and a total of 6 20 goal scorers.

if you target anyone. it should be Juri hudler(20-30) who is a strong even palyer. A player with the speed to drive the zone to ctreate space for iginla and tanguay.

you role out: Tanguay-Hudler-Iginla Glencross-Jokinen-Baertschi Cammalerri-Stajan-XXX Jackman-Jones-XXX

Butler-Giordano XXX-Bouwmeester Smith-Brodie Babchuck

Kiprisoff Irving

likely 9M in Cap Space.

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#31 Kurt
April 04 2012, 03:23PM
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the-wolf wrote:

Given what other teams have paid out in the past I think Iginla is worth a 1st and a B level prospect. Better than nothing though.

After all, GMs will look and say "he's a 30 goal scorer on a bad team and he's been to the finals and won Olympic gold. He will put us over the top and we will prevent other teams from getting him."

I agree. 1st rounder and B prospect. A 1st rounder helps you in 2-5 years depending on how high you can snag, but I'd doubt it would be top 10.

A "B prospect" is someone who may or may not turn out to be a middling player. Maybe a 3rd liner, or at best a 2nd liner, and likely not for another 3-4 years, a few in the minors.

Back to my main point. How will we get elite talent on this team before the year 2020 besides drafting?

I would like to trade Iggy for a 1st rounder, trade Kipper for a 1st rounder (he could probably get you an A- prospect kicked in as well). I'd trade JBo, Gio and anyone else who can fetch 1st or 2nd rounders.

Still none of these picks will be lotto or top 5 so its unlikely they produce any organizational changing draft picks. But maybe it'll lay the groundwork for some youth depth, trigger a complete tank job that could get us the next Stamkos, and by 2016 we'll be back in action.

If anyone can give me a scenario where we can replace Iggy with a 20year old version of himself besides a really high draft pick I'm all ears.

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#32 RexLibris
April 04 2012, 03:32PM
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@Kurt

Yep. Agreed.

Other players may have warranted a 1st round pick and what appears to be an overpay based on their production. But the GMs were paying that much because it was the trade deadline, the player brought more than simply their statistics with them, and they are cheap and young.

Trade value doesn't work on a set and unchanging sliding scale where if x nets return b then y will necessarily return a greater value in d. It is in the eye of the buyer and the trade package of a first round pick and a top-flight prospect was Iginla's value last season or the year before. I know that some fans here have said that if Dustin Penner can be worth a 1st and 3rd and a decent prospect then Iginla MUST be worth more. Sorry to say but that isn't the case. It's just that the timing and the people involved were right.

In fact, last season with the rumours of Brayden Schenn for Iginla may have been his highwater mark on the open market.

I'm saying this as an outside observer whose proximity to the Flames has allowed me to watch a reasonable sample size of Iginla's work.

As I have said in a previous post, the idea that Iginla will necessarily beget the next great hope for Calgary is an anachronism and needs to be discarded. If traded he will return a pick and the Flames will need to discover their next great player on their own rather than have another organization go to the trouble of drafting and developing him.

This is why months ago, perhaps even more than a year ago, I advocated that the biggest area of priority for the Flames should be to improve their amateur scouting department. They are one season removed from a catastrophic collapse, in part because I can seen them easily being rebuffed yet again by the marquee free agents this summer, and the rebuild will be upon them whether Murray, Feaster and King like it or not.

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#33 Kurt
April 04 2012, 03:50PM
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RexLibris wrote:

Yep. Agreed.

Other players may have warranted a 1st round pick and what appears to be an overpay based on their production. But the GMs were paying that much because it was the trade deadline, the player brought more than simply their statistics with them, and they are cheap and young.

Trade value doesn't work on a set and unchanging sliding scale where if x nets return b then y will necessarily return a greater value in d. It is in the eye of the buyer and the trade package of a first round pick and a top-flight prospect was Iginla's value last season or the year before. I know that some fans here have said that if Dustin Penner can be worth a 1st and 3rd and a decent prospect then Iginla MUST be worth more. Sorry to say but that isn't the case. It's just that the timing and the people involved were right.

In fact, last season with the rumours of Brayden Schenn for Iginla may have been his highwater mark on the open market.

I'm saying this as an outside observer whose proximity to the Flames has allowed me to watch a reasonable sample size of Iginla's work.

As I have said in a previous post, the idea that Iginla will necessarily beget the next great hope for Calgary is an anachronism and needs to be discarded. If traded he will return a pick and the Flames will need to discover their next great player on their own rather than have another organization go to the trouble of drafting and developing him.

This is why months ago, perhaps even more than a year ago, I advocated that the biggest area of priority for the Flames should be to improve their amateur scouting department. They are one season removed from a catastrophic collapse, in part because I can seen them easily being rebuffed yet again by the marquee free agents this summer, and the rebuild will be upon them whether Murray, Feaster and King like it or not.

^^ WHAT HE SAID!

How come it takes an Oilers fan to see the light. The main point I've been saying all along is this:

"As I have said in a previous post, the idea that Iginla will necessarily beget the next great hope for Calgary is an anachronism and needs to be discarded. If traded he will return a pick and the Flames will need to discover their next great player on their own rather than have another organization go to the trouble of drafting and developing him."

Iggy is setting into the sunset. How will we replace him? I have buddies in Edmonton who have gone through torture for 3-4 years to get their top guys. I doubt they would trade 1 single of them for our entire team especially after living through the reality of how hard and how much it sucks to 'earn' a lotto pick.

But many of us dream of a world where we let other teams suck, draft, develop and then we trade Iggy for those guys and skip the whole draft/develop stage.

I digress.... my blood pressure is getting too high posting here today.

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#34 Tach
April 04 2012, 03:53PM
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Robert Vollman wrote:

@everton fc

24-year-old Brassard's cap hit is a little higher (2-years $6.4M), and saying that he is "not quite as good" as Jokinen would be very charitable.

But basically yes, this is a very stretched-out version of the right idea.

@Tach

Tangs got 5-years $17.5M at age 31. Kipper got 6-years $35M at age 32. Jokinen in 33, prepare yourself for a long-term contract above $3.0M per.

I am going to refer to you from now on as Robert "Deathstar to Hope" Vollman.

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#35 the-wolf
April 04 2012, 04:00PM
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RexLibris wrote:

Yep. Agreed.

Other players may have warranted a 1st round pick and what appears to be an overpay based on their production. But the GMs were paying that much because it was the trade deadline, the player brought more than simply their statistics with them, and they are cheap and young.

Trade value doesn't work on a set and unchanging sliding scale where if x nets return b then y will necessarily return a greater value in d. It is in the eye of the buyer and the trade package of a first round pick and a top-flight prospect was Iginla's value last season or the year before. I know that some fans here have said that if Dustin Penner can be worth a 1st and 3rd and a decent prospect then Iginla MUST be worth more. Sorry to say but that isn't the case. It's just that the timing and the people involved were right.

In fact, last season with the rumours of Brayden Schenn for Iginla may have been his highwater mark on the open market.

I'm saying this as an outside observer whose proximity to the Flames has allowed me to watch a reasonable sample size of Iginla's work.

As I have said in a previous post, the idea that Iginla will necessarily beget the next great hope for Calgary is an anachronism and needs to be discarded. If traded he will return a pick and the Flames will need to discover their next great player on their own rather than have another organization go to the trouble of drafting and developing him.

This is why months ago, perhaps even more than a year ago, I advocated that the biggest area of priority for the Flames should be to improve their amateur scouting department. They are one season removed from a catastrophic collapse, in part because I can seen them easily being rebuffed yet again by the marquee free agents this summer, and the rebuild will be upon them whether Murray, Feaster and King like it or not.

Exactly why I wanted to move him for the last 4 years. I've stated many times, trades are just as much about timing as anything. To use your example of Schenn, LA was deep at center and needed a vet winger who could score. They were desperate, as well, to 'take the next step.'

43 goal scorer who is 33 years old and in great shape vs. 30ish goal scorer going on 35. You can obviously pick that apart, but perception is everything.

B prospects, with the right scouting, can turn out very well. Moving Iginla and Kipper would greatly help with a rebuild. Not moving them helps absolutely nothing.

Will it be the be-all and end-all? No, but I'm not sure anyone has ever said it would.

Yes, the teeam will also have to suck for a bit and draft its next superstars. Again, boo-hoo, suck it up and do it now because two 35 year olds as the pillars of a team is stupid.

However, Shutout is bang-on, that's exactly what the team will do and say.

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#36 the-wolf
April 04 2012, 04:07PM
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By 'B' level prospect I don't mean middling btw, just below elite 'A' level sure-bet guys. ie. We're not getting Huberdeau.

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#37 FireOnIce
April 04 2012, 04:43PM
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I would just like to point out that David freaking Clarkson scored as many goals as Iginla this season. And has more PIM. And somehow, the Devils went from almost last to making the playoffs.

Also, how in the hell are the Avalanche still in this? If they make the playoffs, I'm protesting outside the Pepsi Center.

At this point with the Flames, they had better do something. Staying the course hasn't worked. If it means bringing up kids to fill in spots and losing on a nightly basis, so be it. Give them experience.

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#38 really?
April 04 2012, 04:47PM
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@Kurt

excellent work. maybe, after some time, we can stop reading postings about how iggy, kipper et all will just be flipped for star players in their prime. eventually, i would hope, reality will set in.

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#39 Bean-counting cowboy
April 04 2012, 05:03PM
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My Iginla trade scenario with Pittsburg perhaps a little optimistic, however as I pointed out, this was a deadline trade scenario, not off-season.

I figure if Gaustad nets a 1st, then is Iggy & Backlund to get you Staal & (presumably very late) 1st pick that far out to lunch?, especially if Staal begins to feel his ice time is diminished with Sid & Malkin in the lineup.

Backlund can be decent 3rd line center on that team & getting Iggy could push them over the top. A powerplay with Iggy, Malkin, Crosby, Neal & Letang would be deadly. Plus Iggy showed some chemistry with Crosby at the Olympics.

Teams will be willing to pay a bit more at the deadline. If Pittsburg knew Philly, or Boston was looking at Iggy - is it that far of a stretch?

Staal is good enough to be a leader in ice-time on other NHL teams (see Flames). You don't think he's ever wondered how many points he could put up somewhere else with more ice time?

Perhaps I'm just fantasizing - but to me Pittsburg is trading from a position of strength (center ice-position) - plus, If Backlund starts to produce more next year, he may not be seen by Shero as that large of a downgrade from Staal as he is at this point in time, given the minutes that's needed at that position. There's certainly some upside there.

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#40 Kurt
April 04 2012, 05:12PM
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Bean-counting cowboy wrote:

My Iginla trade scenario with Pittsburg perhaps a little optimistic, however as I pointed out, this was a deadline trade scenario, not off-season.

I figure if Gaustad nets a 1st, then is Iggy & Backlund to get you Staal & (presumably very late) 1st pick that far out to lunch?, especially if Staal begins to feel his ice time is diminished with Sid & Malkin in the lineup.

Backlund can be decent 3rd line center on that team & getting Iggy could push them over the top. A powerplay with Iggy, Malkin, Crosby, Neal & Letang would be deadly. Plus Iggy showed some chemistry with Crosby at the Olympics.

Teams will be willing to pay a bit more at the deadline. If Pittsburg knew Philly, or Boston was looking at Iggy - is it that far of a stretch?

Staal is good enough to be a leader in ice-time on other NHL teams (see Flames). You don't think he's ever wondered how many points he could put up somewhere else with more ice time?

Perhaps I'm just fantasizing - but to me Pittsburg is trading from a position of strength (center ice-position) - plus, If Backlund starts to produce more next year, he may not be seen by Shero as that large of a downgrade from Staal as he is at this point in time, given the minutes that's needed at that position. There's certainly some upside there.

The problem with your logic is the reality of deadline trades. It could work if Pitts was out of it. But I doubt that'll be the case. Deadline deals virtually always involve teams that are looking to add a piece for the playoffs by way of draft picks & prospects. Teams want to add to their team for a playoff run by leveraging the future (prospects & picks). Roster players just don't move both ways at the deadline.

I can't recall any deadline deals where a team traded a roster player away never mind one of Staal's caliber.

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#41 RexLibris
April 04 2012, 05:29PM
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Tach wrote:

I am going to refer to you from now on as Robert "Deathstar to Hope" Vollman.

Man, I wish I had that kind of nickname.

I hope Robert officially adopts it.

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#42 shutout
April 05 2012, 09:38AM
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Rangers offer to Columbus for Rick Nash - Brandon Dubinsky, Tim Erixon, J.T. Miller, Christian Thomas and a 1st round pick.

I will agree that there is no chance that we can get something like this for Iginla. But say that the Rangers go out in the first round and Toronto out bids them for Nash. What could you reasonably expect to get for Iginla?

Right now I am saying the 1st round pick, Christian Thomas, and Michael St Croix. It would be better to try and get their 2013 first round pick, but this years will work as well.

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#43 RexLibris
April 05 2012, 10:07AM
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shutout wrote:

Rangers offer to Columbus for Rick Nash - Brandon Dubinsky, Tim Erixon, J.T. Miller, Christian Thomas and a 1st round pick.

I will agree that there is no chance that we can get something like this for Iginla. But say that the Rangers go out in the first round and Toronto out bids them for Nash. What could you reasonably expect to get for Iginla?

Right now I am saying the 1st round pick, Christian Thomas, and Michael St Croix. It would be better to try and get their 2013 first round pick, but this years will work as well.

That would seem like an overpay from my perspective. Not because Iginla hasn't achieved more than Nash, but precisely because Iginla HAS achieved more than Nash. The book of Iginla is closer to the epilogue than the prologue.

Sather's offer for Nash is in part based on the many years of contractual service he will be receiving as well as the potential still there. Iginla has been either holding steady or declining very incrementally these past few seasons and at 35-36 there is very little reason to believe that he is going to explode upwards.

Iginla was never Selanne and cannot be expected to mirror Selanne's continued pace into his 40s.

The biggest reason that I doubt Sather offers that to the Flames for Iginla is that there aren't many trades that Sather has ever lost when it comes to landing big names. I think Sather probably offers something like a first round pick this year and Derek Stepan.

In the pre-salary-cap era Sather would do the above deal in a second, because he would calculate that he'd just re-acquire Thomas and St. Croix after the Flames had developed them and could no longer afford them.

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#44 Robert Vollman
April 05 2012, 10:09AM
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RexLibris wrote:

Man, I wish I had that kind of nickname.

I hope Robert officially adopts it.

I'll admit it's catchier than Buzzkill (my nickname on Nashville radio).

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#45 the-wolf
April 05 2012, 10:56AM
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RexLibris wrote:

That would seem like an overpay from my perspective. Not because Iginla hasn't achieved more than Nash, but precisely because Iginla HAS achieved more than Nash. The book of Iginla is closer to the epilogue than the prologue.

Sather's offer for Nash is in part based on the many years of contractual service he will be receiving as well as the potential still there. Iginla has been either holding steady or declining very incrementally these past few seasons and at 35-36 there is very little reason to believe that he is going to explode upwards.

Iginla was never Selanne and cannot be expected to mirror Selanne's continued pace into his 40s.

The biggest reason that I doubt Sather offers that to the Flames for Iginla is that there aren't many trades that Sather has ever lost when it comes to landing big names. I think Sather probably offers something like a first round pick this year and Derek Stepan.

In the pre-salary-cap era Sather would do the above deal in a second, because he would calculate that he'd just re-acquire Thomas and St. Croix after the Flames had developed them and could no longer afford them.

Stepan and a 1st for Iginla?!

Sir, you have yourself a deal!

SOLD!!!

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#46 Kevin R
April 05 2012, 01:19PM
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RexLibris wrote:

That would seem like an overpay from my perspective. Not because Iginla hasn't achieved more than Nash, but precisely because Iginla HAS achieved more than Nash. The book of Iginla is closer to the epilogue than the prologue.

Sather's offer for Nash is in part based on the many years of contractual service he will be receiving as well as the potential still there. Iginla has been either holding steady or declining very incrementally these past few seasons and at 35-36 there is very little reason to believe that he is going to explode upwards.

Iginla was never Selanne and cannot be expected to mirror Selanne's continued pace into his 40s.

The biggest reason that I doubt Sather offers that to the Flames for Iginla is that there aren't many trades that Sather has ever lost when it comes to landing big names. I think Sather probably offers something like a first round pick this year and Derek Stepan.

In the pre-salary-cap era Sather would do the above deal in a second, because he would calculate that he'd just re-acquire Thomas and St. Croix after the Flames had developed them and could no longer afford them.

Rex, how can you say Iginla will never have the ability to play until his forties like Selanne. I would say Iggy has kept himself in as good of shape as Selanne ever has. Iggy has had less injuries during his career than Selanne. & how do you know he couldnt pot 30-40 goals a year playing secondary scoring & sharing power play time with the likes of Perry, Getzlaf & Ryan. Sir, I really dont understand how you can make that statement. And at age 41, what do you think Selannes trade value would have been if Anaheim had even considered putting him for auction at this trade deadline? Circumstances will dictate the return for Iggy & it would be pure folly to try & pigeon hole a value for players such as Selanne & Iggy. It all has to do with needs & circumstances of the dance partner in the deal.

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#47 the-wolf
April 05 2012, 03:31PM
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Kevin R wrote:

Rex, how can you say Iginla will never have the ability to play until his forties like Selanne. I would say Iggy has kept himself in as good of shape as Selanne ever has. Iggy has had less injuries during his career than Selanne. & how do you know he couldnt pot 30-40 goals a year playing secondary scoring & sharing power play time with the likes of Perry, Getzlaf & Ryan. Sir, I really dont understand how you can make that statement. And at age 41, what do you think Selannes trade value would have been if Anaheim had even considered putting him for auction at this trade deadline? Circumstances will dictate the return for Iggy & it would be pure folly to try & pigeon hole a value for players such as Selanne & Iggy. It all has to do with needs & circumstances of the dance partner in the deal.

I must say, you make a good point.

What would teams have paid for Selanne?

And guaranteed there's at least a few GMs out there who believe Iginla will play another 5 years. He's still the most fit player in camp every year. His skating hasn't slowed either.

Still maintain he's worth at least a solid mid-range 1st and a just below 'A' level prospect. Like I've stated we won't be getting a Huberdeau, but not some guy destined for the 3rd line either.

But, as you state, circumstances and bidding wars can push that up.

I just wonder if he's worth more this summer or a the deadline?

Mind you, like I said earlier, if Rex wanted to give me Stepan and a 1st I'd be pretty happy. Not that I wouldn't try and get more, but I'd settle for that.

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#48 Franko J
April 06 2012, 12:50AM
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I think with the Flames this season, this team is very fortunate to compete for 8 th in the Western Conference. The reality is:

1. The overall talent from players to prospects within the Flames Organization is average. Until the past two drafts, the skill set within the organization is full of 3rd/4th line forwards and 5th/6th defensive players. Outside of Sven Baertschi, the talent is not so awe-inspiring. At center, where is the skill?At the defense, where is the solid two-way defenseman? When it comes to drafting Calgary is more effective at drafting 3rd and 4th round picks. However, starting with this years draft Calgary has to be more efficient.

2. Honestly speaking, not since Badger Bob Johnson left Calgary has there been a better coach? I know Sutter had one magical post-season, and the players played beyond their talents. Since then I haven't heard too many comments about the players on this team playing beyond their talents or skills. It is more like the players have under achieved and the past three coaches, including Brent, have fallen flat to raise the players level of play beyond talent and skill. Especially the " core". While drafting and developing players, is the key to successful post-season bids, the Flames as an organization have not done a good enough job with coaches(ing). While the finger is pointed at the terrible drafts, outside of Playfair, has Calgary even taken the time and consideration developing coaches within the organization? Troy Ward is doing a really good job with the Heat. If Feaster and company are smart, they could have the potential of hiring a solid NHL coach.

3. CULTURE, CULTURE, CULTURE. The Flames have failed to make the playoffs this year again is that there is hidden stigma or underlying habit of self- gratification. This team has no identity. They are not "hard to play against" or "fast skating". The true consensus from around the league {media included} is they are slow, lazy, and old. Take away a few players and this team far too often through the course of the season play with little heart, drive, grit, and sacrifice. Again, it is up the management this off-season to move this team in a positive direction.

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