Five things: Let's just address some stuff

Ryan Lambert
August 16 2012 08:41AM

1. The latest Bouwmeester rumors

Okay so now the rumor kicking around about Jay Bouwmeester — if he's traded, and he will be, maybe, but probably he will, except not unless the team is bowled over by an offer, which it won't be, because his salary is too high, but teams are desperate so they might trade for him, if Calgary is willing, which it's unclear if they are — is that his most likely destination is Detroit (unless it isn.. forget it). And the potential return from the Red Wings?

Rumors out of Detroit, citing rumors out of Calgary, which seem to have been entirely made up, is that the Flames would be willing to swap out Bouwmeester for Valtteri Filppula (the long-coveted top-six forward that will surely propel Calgary to wherever the hell it is people in the front office think it can go, or whatever), Jonathan Ericsson, and a prospect.

The only thing anyone on Earth should be allowed to think about that supposed trade which will never happen is: "I hope that prospect is Seth Jones."

The ludicrous aspects of this proposal are several: First, Filppula is 28 years old, and guys in their late 20s isn't exactly what Calgary needs these days. Further, he's an unrestricted free agent after next season, and who knows how much of that season anyone even gets to play. He was a minus-7.5 in corsi relative last season (23rd on the Wings) despite starting nearly 54 percent of his shifts in the attacking zone (and finishing fewer than half there). That's after playing much of the season with Henrik Zetterberg, whose relative corsi was 6.1. Now granted, he scored 66 points last season, but that's with a shooting percentage of 16. Among Wings, only Hudler's was higher. And by the way, moving a player who scored 66 points as a 28-year-old but had only broken 40 once in his career prior to that would be the very definition of Detroit selling high.

How about Ericsson, then? Another player who was negative in relative corsi, but only just at minus-0.1. He wasn't exactly saddled with world-beating partners (Jakub Kindl and Mike Commodore were his most common), but y'know, generally isn't very good. Calgary would be taking a huge step back in terms of defensive quality and oh by the way they were terrible defensively last season. This is simply not a good fit unless there's something in the pipeline.

But there couldn't be something else on the pipeline, at least, nothing momentous. That's because while Calgary would technically be shedding salary, it wouldn't be a whole lot. Bouwmeester is at $6.68 million, Ericsson and Filppula combined cost $6.25 million. That's an awful big downgrade in defensive quality for a minimal upgrade in offense, and gives you the team an additional $0.43 million in additional cap space. That's not even enough to sign someone to a league-minimum deal.

So yeah, that prospect better be really good.

2. Is there really any sort of goaltending controversy?

Read something by Steinberg yesterday about how the Flames have five goalies on AHL-or-NHL deals and only four spots. Barry Brust and Danny Taylor in Abbotsford, and Miikka Kiprusoff, Leland Irving and Henrik Karlsson in Calgary.

Who, oh who, do we choose to not be with the team any more?

The case for Irving: He's still a former first-round pick who has had good professional seasons in North America and for better or worse seems to be the franchise's heir apparent to Kiprusoff's job barring a return to these shores by Karri Ramo after this coming season (which admittedly could happen). He's cheaper than Karlsson.

The case against Irving: He lost his starting job in the AHL last year, and didn't post great stats in his seven brief appearances with the big club. He looked like a total nerd on his draft day.

The case for Karlsson: He's signed to a one-way deal paying him more than $862,000, which is a lot of money to stash away somewhere.

The case against Karlsson: He pretty much sucks.

So there you have it.

3. Buying cap space seems like an okay idea

Wow cool the NHLPA's proposal allows teams to trade cap space so that it gives bigger-market clubs the chance to spend more money if they want while also benefiting the smaller teams who won't be paying out the money anyway?

Oh wait this only lets you do that if you're in severe financial distress, and it can only be for a maximum of $4 million one way or the other. That's too bad.

IN THEORY, trading cap space works for everyone. Avaricious owners who believe in winning at all costs get to pay more to players, and those who prefer to stay on the cheap side for whatever reason get to bolster their teams. But in actual practice, this plan seems like a dud to me, and that sucks. Wouldn't it be great to see more trades? Imagine the anticipation of "The Flyers just got $3 million in cap space from Phoenix! Who are they gonna go after?"

4. Let's dial it back everyone

I admit to getting a little too excited about the players' association's proposal Tuesday. Finally, something about which we could be positive after a month of pretty much just waiting on a lockout.

But then Gary Bettman came out today and pretty much squashed that saying lots of stuff about different views on the world and how the NFL and NBA's collective bargaining agreements were the benchmarks here. Disheartening is what it was, and I have learned my lesson.

From now on, until this CBA is signed, I'm not going to get too mad at the owners, and I'm not going to get too excited about the PA's various offers and counter-offers and counter-counter-offers. None of it is in any way helpful.

5. Begin again

Wow Steve Begin! Whoa! A tryout with the Flames? Christ, he might make the team.

This Flames side isn't exactly the team it was when million-year-old Theo Fleury gave it another go (largely for old times' sake and to sell preseason tickets), and a guy coming off an entire season missed due to hip surgery making the latest iteration would be, well, not surprising at this point, I guess.

Steve Begin. Honestly.

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Yer ol' buddy Lambert is handsome and great and everyone loves him. Also you can visit his regular blog at The Two-Line Pass or follow him on Twitter. Lucky you!
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#1 Baalzamon
August 16 2012, 09:05AM
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#1: totally 100% agree.

#2: "he pretty much sucks" lol. Poor Karlsson.

#3: it was so weird when I saw that "cap space trade" thing. I wasn't aware of the restrictions, mostly because I don't pay a whole heckuva lot of attention to the CBA debate.

#4: see above.

#5: yeah Begin. To be fair, he can play center, (used to) be good at faceoffs, and adds that "grit" that people have been hankering for for some reason. The question is whether he can play hockey or not.

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#2 Bean-counting cowboy
August 16 2012, 09:05AM
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I've been thinking about these JBo rumours for some time now trying to make sense of it. It doesn't make sense, so here's a new thought. What if JBo ASKED to be traded?

The guy hasn't made the playoffs ever, saw his offensive production decline substantially while here and has been completely bashed by a majority of the fanbase.

Maybe Feaster is keeping that aspect secret as to not reflect poorly on the franchise. These are the prime years of JBo's career & perhaps he wants a chance to prove he is worth his pudding on a contending team.

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#3 Michael
August 16 2012, 09:08AM
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I definately in the 'if he's traded, and he will be, maybe, but probably he will, except not unless the team is bowled over by an offer, which it won't be, because his salary is too high' camp...

I doubt you could have traded JBO this time last year if you tried... I guess a Kotalik type trade might have worked... its nice to see that JBo has some market value this year, which at least gives Feaster options...

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#4 Michael
August 16 2012, 09:09AM
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I guess the cap space idea could be used as a form of revenue sharing...

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#5 Colin.S
August 16 2012, 09:48AM
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I couldn't freaking agree with you more on point 1, I pointed out all those points in the open weekend thread and people still kept posting 1 for 1 swaps of Bouwmeester for Filppula, WHAT A TERRIBLE TRADE AND THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD FEEL TERRIBLE FOR SUGGESTING IT!

I have no problem with trading cap space, as the Calgary Flames have shown, spend to the cap all you want it won't win you a championship. Now maybe Vancouver on the hand could put that extra 4 million to good use.

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#6 xis10ce
August 16 2012, 09:56AM
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Everyone loves to hate JayBo for his large contract, but to be entirely honest, I can think of maybe 5-10 players in the league I'd rather have on my 1st dline than him.

Is he overpaid for offensive production that dried up since his change of scenery from the South-Easy Division? Yes. Does he still shut down the best of the league on a regular basis for 30mins a game? Also yes.

As the salary cap keep growing, so diminishes the "bad cap hit" his contract is relative. So get over it, it's not like he's signed to a Luongo length deal, it's 2 more years of a bit of an overpay for probably a top 10 defender in the league.

At his calibre of play defensively pickings are slim in the league, so STFU about his lack of offence and accept that he's a stewalt stone wall on def, and hope his offence gets revitalized under the new coach given he'll no longer be stiffled under the oppresive Sutter Juggernaut.

EDIT: Not pooping on your point Ryan, but just saying people need to simmer their boiling over pot of JayBo hate. Trading him for mediocure junk don't help us none.

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#7 FireOnIce
August 16 2012, 10:05AM
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Steve Freakin' Begin. People should be up in arms over this move, especially if he gets a real contract. Feaster has espoused a meritocracy and claims to want to let the rookies and prospects play if they earn a spot. This is essentially taking a spot from a rookie, just for the sake of "grit" or "locker-room presence".

Begin played one game on his PTO last season for Vancouver and woke up the next day needing hip surgery. One game. This does not sound like a player the Flames need. In fact, it reeks of desperation, and it sounds exactly like what Calgary did with Brendan Morrison. No thanks.

Oh, did I mention that Begin just turned 34? Yeah. No, no, I think we can do without.

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#8 T&A4Flames
August 16 2012, 10:14AM
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If Begin makes this team out of camp, I would be VERY interested to see what Feaster does with his FWD's. The way I see it, we already have quite the backlog if Baertschi & Bouma make the team; Bouma certainly should be in the bottom 6.

Where would Begin fit? I would think 4th line. If so, does Bouma become a 3rd liner? If so, how do you fit in GlenX, Cammi, Tangs & Baertschi if he makes it?

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#9 Reidja
August 16 2012, 10:15AM
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Come on Lambert. Trying to disagree with one of these five things is like trying to find the newest thing in acoustic guitars. Personally, I would love the Flames to get younger and worse at the same time. It's a win-win or lose-win or lose-lose, whatever you like. This offseason has disinspired me so much that I'm ready for a Feaster induced first overall draft pick. And the sooner the better. Should Filpula be part of my dequation? Nah. I would prefer more prospects then fewer.

On goaltending, everyone knows that bad goaltending should be the cornerstone of a bad team. Therefore I say we trade kipper and let Irving and some UFA fight a heated battle for the starter role. Woo.

I do not talk about the CBA.

Begin! His pre-season game may be the highlight of the season so let us not crap on this yet.

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#10 Kevin R
August 16 2012, 10:15AM
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1/ I agree, I think but maybe not agree but that is only on something that I do agree so I probably agree with you. The best return we get for JBO has got to be a 1st rounder, dont care where in the round & a very good prospect & a roster salary balancing player. We are just not going to score that top centre for him without adding something Feaster doesnt want & cant afford to throw in. Detroits 1st, Ericson(probably can play 4-5D on Calgary) & Nyquist or Tatar. If thats on the table, just friggin do it & put this to rest, maybe the only thing we talk about this winter.

2/Goalie controversy, umm no, unless we trade Kipper & then we do have a controversy, or more like a 9 1 1 emergency. But we all know that 9 1 1 call is going to have to be made, the question is when. It's no different than knowing you have to book that surgery to have your wisdom teeth removed. Gonna happen.

3/ Buying cap space is just another way of saying luxury tax. It is what it is, so if thats so great, just let the rich teams pay through the nose to spend their millions. Maybe just allow these guys who like to give ridiculous size contracts to fully buy them out without impacting the cap. Let em blow their brains out, go gee, Gomez wasnt worth that, ok lets pay him all his contract up front & it's off the cap & lets do over. I'm sure the players wouldnt complain, if they did then this thing is really screwed up.

4/ I'm tired of seeing this CBA bickering already. Gonna be a long winter. Gee, who should I feel bad for? Poor Sidney, God love him, is going to have to take a real haircut under the Owners 1st proposal & lose almost 23 million. Poor lad, he will only make 78 million on his next contract. OMG!! Then the owners plan is to only have to increase overinflated ticket prices by a pittance 3.0% each year. I might feel a little better if these guys took a friggin step back & admit that to the normal joe fan these $$$ are outrageous. The Season Ticket Holders should get some representation in these negotiations & demand a cut in the revenue sharing!!! Havent heard any of these clowns say, people have been losing their jobs & homes & lets be sure we drop ticket prices by 22% so our product is affordable.

5/ Begin! :-) :-) :-) Are you kidding me. This is our answer to having zero hockey players on our team with the ability to win faceoffs? Well if Begin makes the team & wins faceoffs, great that advanced stat will be something Management can declare positive & we are close to making the playoffs with, but our GAA will go up dramatically because after he wins the faceoff, we'll get scored on because of how we will be in a short handed situation of 2 guys helping him back to the bench.

Sorry guys, just the mood I'm in. Maybe we need a blog about what things you can do during the winter during a hockey lockout.

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#11 T&A4Flames
August 16 2012, 10:17AM
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FireOnIce wrote:

Steve Freakin' Begin. People should be up in arms over this move, especially if he gets a real contract. Feaster has espoused a meritocracy and claims to want to let the rookies and prospects play if they earn a spot. This is essentially taking a spot from a rookie, just for the sake of "grit" or "locker-room presence".

Begin played one game on his PTO last season for Vancouver and woke up the next day needing hip surgery. One game. This does not sound like a player the Flames need. In fact, it reeks of desperation, and it sounds exactly like what Calgary did with Brendan Morrison. No thanks.

Oh, did I mention that Begin just turned 34? Yeah. No, no, I think we can do without.

I think it just creates competition in camp. I wouldn't worry about the meritocracy, I believe it will stay in tact, whoever earns the position in camp will be there. Whether that is Begin, Bouma or whoever, they still have to earn it.

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#12 the-wolf
August 16 2012, 10:35AM
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Bean-counting cowboy wrote:

I've been thinking about these JBo rumours for some time now trying to make sense of it. It doesn't make sense, so here's a new thought. What if JBo ASKED to be traded?

The guy hasn't made the playoffs ever, saw his offensive production decline substantially while here and has been completely bashed by a majority of the fanbase.

Maybe Feaster is keeping that aspect secret as to not reflect poorly on the franchise. These are the prime years of JBo's career & perhaps he wants a chance to prove he is worth his pudding on a contending team.

hmmm.....that's an interesting thought. Same problems though.

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#13 DangleSnipeCelly
August 16 2012, 10:47AM
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I agree with @KevinR... I was going to suggest the same thing.

Remove Filppula from the deal and add in Detroit's 1st RD pick. Now we're saving some real cap room and adding another prospect. Me likey.

I'm hoping after some deadline unloads to be heading into the 2013 draft with three first rounders. Then we can package two and move up (unless of course we're already picking 1st overall) and still have another later on....

This excites me.... Steve Begin, not so much. Although no harm in having him around for camp. He's a warrior.

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#14 schevvy
August 16 2012, 10:55AM
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STEVE BEEEEGIN!!! hahaha. Not to worry though, it's just an invite. Hell, the Canucks gave one to Anders freakin Eriksson and Owen Nolan last year hahahahaha

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#15 Bean-counting cowboy
August 16 2012, 11:00AM
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the-wolf wrote:

hmmm.....that's an interesting thought. Same problems though.

Could explain a lot of the counter-intuitiveness - ie. remaining competitive, signing UFAs, yet trade your best defender.

Plus if he came out & said JBO has asked for a trade (see Scott Howson), the value plummets (see Rick Nash trade).

Maybe there's a handshake agreement that neither party will leak the fact that he has asked for the trade - at least for now.

This is all pure speculation obviously.

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#16 RKD
August 16 2012, 11:51AM
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While Detroit is the most likely destination, it's not a guarantee. Kenny Holland is seriously looking to pry away Keith Yandle from the Phoenix Coyotes. Yandle's cap hit is 5.25 million for the next 4 years and he's only 25 years old. He's put up better offensive numbers than Jay-Bo the past few seasons and has 27 playoff games under his belt.

Philadelphia is also in dire need, now with Lilja injured and out until November. St. Louis is also looking at adding a LH defender to play on the other side of Ptetrangelo. A deal with St. Louis was immminent at the draft, but for some reason the deal fell apart at the last moment.

Ian Cole is rumoured as a name that the Blues would be willing to part with.

Either Feaster's asking price maybe too steep and/or Holland still has reservations. Given the CBA and impending lockout Calgary may just keep Jay-Bo.

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#17 negrilcowboy
August 16 2012, 12:02PM
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it may turn out to be a long lockout/strike/dispute. steve begin, i think i would rather give menachen begin a tryout. jboo aint going nowheres.

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#18 Vintage Flame
August 16 2012, 12:11PM
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Bean-counting cowboy wrote:

I've been thinking about these JBo rumours for some time now trying to make sense of it. It doesn't make sense, so here's a new thought. What if JBo ASKED to be traded?

The guy hasn't made the playoffs ever, saw his offensive production decline substantially while here and has been completely bashed by a majority of the fanbase.

Maybe Feaster is keeping that aspect secret as to not reflect poorly on the franchise. These are the prime years of JBo's career & perhaps he wants a chance to prove he is worth his pudding on a contending team.

Hadn't thought of that angle. Although I highly doubt it is the case, at the same time it certainly can't be dismissed.

If it is JayBo asking to be traded then the team is in more trouble than originally thought. I think it would also change my opinion as to whether or not he should be traded.

I am adamantly against trading Jay, but if is asking to get out, then I think it's a move that is better in the long run for both sides.

... I hope that's not the case, REALLY!

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#19 jeremywilhelm
August 16 2012, 12:12PM
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All the Bouwmeester talk is pointless. The Lockout is inevitable! Like your insignificant Rebellion!

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#20 FireOnIce
August 16 2012, 12:15PM
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@RKD

"A deal with St Louis was imminent at the draft, but for some reason the deal fell apart at the last moment"

A deal between St. Louis and who? Calgary? Detroit? I don't remember anything about St. Louis and Calgary at all.

A deal was also imminent with Columbus for Jeff Carter. A deal was also imminent with Ottawa for Jason Spezza. Until these things actually happen, they are just rumours that I consider to be mostly BS and wishful thinking from an insider or reporter. In other words... MALKIN TO THE KINGS!

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#21 RexLibris
August 16 2012, 12:20PM
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@VF

So to combine two trains of thought from comment threads. IF Bouwmeester had requested a trade, and IF trading him would mean that the team is essentially taking a step (inadvertent or not) towards rebuilding, then could fans eventually look back on this with some relief? It would mean that the long-debated and much-avoided task of rebuilding would have been thrust upon the franchise in spite of their best efforts to the contrary.

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#22 beloch
August 16 2012, 12:48PM
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I can't think of a reason for giving Begin a tryout other than to give him the eyeball for a possible non-player role in the future. Is he a silver-tongued devil like Conroy or something?

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#23 Bean-counting cowboy
August 16 2012, 12:58PM
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RexLibris wrote:

@VF

So to combine two trains of thought from comment threads. IF Bouwmeester had requested a trade, and IF trading him would mean that the team is essentially taking a step (inadvertent or not) towards rebuilding, then could fans eventually look back on this with some relief? It would mean that the long-debated and much-avoided task of rebuilding would have been thrust upon the franchise in spite of their best efforts to the contrary.

Unless ownership continues to ingnore the obvious, discounts it as a one-off & trades bouwmeester for filpula straight up to "remain competitive" - so basically the worst case scenario.

However if it did prompt the rebuild (traded for picks & prospects, Iggy sees the light, asks for a trade, etc.) I think we certainly would look back on it as a blessing.

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#24 Vintage Flame
August 16 2012, 12:59PM
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@RexLibris

IF Bouwmeester had requested a trade, and IF trading him would mean that the team is essentially taking a step (inadvertent or not) towards rebuilding, then could fans eventually look back on this with some relief?

I'm not sure what they would be relieved about though Rex. Trading JayBo might be a step towards a re-"insert term here", but it by no means a commitment. It's basically just a bad move.

The only way the Flames are going to show any commitment to that process would be to trade Iggy and/or Kipper. Trading Bouwmeester would be a fickle attempt to shed his contract and take the hit on defensiveness.

As Ryan points out, getting rid of his $6.8 M contract to take on 6.25 M, is negligible in a fiscal sense, and the real metric would be on the ice.

The only bright side to the move would be able to tell all the Bouwmeester haters, one big emphatic "I told you so!!".. but by then of course the damage will have already been done, right?

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#25 Kevin R
August 16 2012, 01:05PM
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RexLibris wrote:

@VF

So to combine two trains of thought from comment threads. IF Bouwmeester had requested a trade, and IF trading him would mean that the team is essentially taking a step (inadvertent or not) towards rebuilding, then could fans eventually look back on this with some relief? It would mean that the long-debated and much-avoided task of rebuilding would have been thrust upon the franchise in spite of their best efforts to the contrary.

I think thats the whole point of why no one can understand why the Flames have so openly have JBO on the market & rise of the conspiracy theory of him wanting out. He probably hates the microscope of a Canadian market & cant really come out & say so. Given the returns that are probably on the table, I agree, this is the lightning rod to start the rebuild fire. So lets just get that 1st rounder & a good prospect & a little salary dump back. Flames top 4 is actually not that bad with JBO in there, certainly better than what we were going in with last year. Say what you want, but Wideman is a huge upgrade over Hannan.

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#26 Baalzamon
August 16 2012, 01:07PM
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@RKD

if there is a St. Louis trade to be had, it would likely involve the best potential return. I would hope the return would be something like Alex Steen + Ian Cole + a pick. I'm not an advocate of a Bouwmeester trade, but it's hard to dislike a return that includes a decent D prospect and an excellent even strength player (who can also play center *wink*wink*)

however, I don't see why St. Louis would be interested in moving some of their paltry scoring depth for Bouwmeester. Though, they were mostly just unlucky last season.

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#27 RKD
August 16 2012, 01:11PM
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FireOnIce wrote:

"A deal with St Louis was imminent at the draft, but for some reason the deal fell apart at the last moment"

A deal between St. Louis and who? Calgary? Detroit? I don't remember anything about St. Louis and Calgary at all.

A deal was also imminent with Columbus for Jeff Carter. A deal was also imminent with Ottawa for Jason Spezza. Until these things actually happen, they are just rumours that I consider to be mostly BS and wishful thinking from an insider or reporter. In other words... MALKIN TO THE KINGS!

It was to be between St. Louis and Calgary, this deal was one no one except the parties involved knew about. Details about this impending trade were kept quiet until now. All we do know is Jay-Bo was almost bound for St. Louis, don't know what return the Blues were offering. Cole is one of the names we keep hearing.

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#28 RKD
August 16 2012, 01:13PM
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Baalzamon wrote:

@RKD

if there is a St. Louis trade to be had, it would likely involve the best potential return. I would hope the return would be something like Alex Steen + Ian Cole + a pick. I'm not an advocate of a Bouwmeester trade, but it's hard to dislike a return that includes a decent D prospect and an excellent even strength player (who can also play center *wink*wink*)

however, I don't see why St. Louis would be interested in moving some of their paltry scoring depth for Bouwmeester. Though, they were mostly just unlucky last season.

The Blues want a LH defenceman to play big minutes with Pietrangelo. Jay-Bo fits that mould to a tee.

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#29 PrairieStew
August 16 2012, 02:52PM
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I think the Jaybo speculation comes from people just wondering what Detroit and Philadelphia are going to do to address their needs. Since they are both seen to be contenders with a hole on defence - naturally talk turns to Jay who meets the criteria. That being a top pair guy with just 2 years left on his current deal, who may need a change of scenery.

Frankly if you got Fillpula, Ericsson and a prospect thats a pretty good return for a guy who you might not resign in 2 years. Then you can move Kipper to Toronto for Gardiner, Reimer and a prospect, then Iggy at the deadline.....

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#30 RexLibris
August 16 2012, 03:33PM
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It might also be worth pointing out that if Feaster were to "pull the pin" on a Bouwmeester trade a month before the end of the current CBA, with the landscape for the next still uncertain, it would probably be a bad move in the long term. Bouwmeester is overpaid right now, but if the receiving team were able to get him for cheaper because of a rollback...?

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#31 Austin L
August 16 2012, 03:39PM
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I like the thinking of replacing Filppula with a 1st. But I think Filppula has more value than Ericsson, so why not just trade JBo for Filppula and a 1st? The Red Wings won't be as good as they were last season because Howard is a very good goalie, but usually goalies numbers tend to fluctuate a bit, as well as the fact that Lidstrom isn't there. And Hudler ;). Then we could have a pick in the top 20. And we will probably end up picking anywhere from 8-14.

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#32 Colin
August 16 2012, 04:12PM
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@PrairieStew

That's a terrible return and you should be ashamed of yourself for not reading WHY it's a terrible return and should feel even worse for trying to justify it.

Yes Bouwmeester might be gone in two, but Filpulla will most likely be gone in one, either that or he demands a contract that is going to make Kotalik and Hagman look like not bad bets.

Bouwmeester has value to the Flames, Filpulla as a middling forward that is not NEAR good enough to play top 3 or maybe even top 6 is NOT what the flames need at all and doesn't fill ANY short or long term need.

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#33 Austin L
August 16 2012, 04:36PM
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Colin wrote:

That's a terrible return and you should be ashamed of yourself for not reading WHY it's a terrible return and should feel even worse for trying to justify it.

Yes Bouwmeester might be gone in two, but Filpulla will most likely be gone in one, either that or he demands a contract that is going to make Kotalik and Hagman look like not bad bets.

Bouwmeester has value to the Flames, Filpulla as a middling forward that is not NEAR good enough to play top 3 or maybe even top 6 is NOT what the flames need at all and doesn't fill ANY short or long term need.

The Flames could do a lot worse....... I think that return is better than what we got for Phaneuf.

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#34 PrairieStew
August 16 2012, 05:21PM
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@Colin

I disagree.

Fillpula was 15th in the league in ES points (12th in assists and tied for 45th in ES goals), this while getting only the 81st amount of ES ice time among forwards. He had more ES points than Claude Giroux. If you think that all attributable to Zetterberg, fine, but it can't be all of it - maybe some of it was Hudler!

He won 51.7% of his faceoffs which is more than anyone on last years Flames save Stajan (51.8).

Frankly if Fillpula is a 45-50 point guy he'd be among the top 5 point getters on last years ( and probably this years) Flames team, and you Ericsson and a top prospect as well it;s a good return.

Part of the reason I see it as a good deal too is that it addresses a need(scoring) with a strength you have (left D).

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#35 Colin
August 16 2012, 05:48PM
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@PrairieStew

Again ALL of those points were from a guy who was riding a career high SH% that is completely unsustainable(Huddlers even worse off), is 28 and has only ever got above 40 points once in his career. As well as 2nd highest team PDO (think luck), only Todd Bertuzzi was higher. The only way he gets close to what he produced in Detroit in Calgary is if he manges to stick a leprochon up his ass the entire season. He also managed to start most of his shifts in the Ozone, a hefty amount if I remember correctly, that won't be happening in Calgary, he's look at probably a 5-8% decrease in starts in the Ozone. If I remember an article from Canucks Army, those 5-8% Ozone starts can account for as much as 5 points or more.

And lots of people can hit 60 points in a season, fun story, Ales Kotalik once hit 60 points in a season.

So when you factor in his Ozone starts, SH%, PDO and line mate of Zetterberg you have a recipe for DISASTER. He is making 3M this year, he's only going to go up after his last season, are you comfortable paying him 4.5 or 5 million per season for a guy who's more than likely a really good third liner or maybe average 2nd liner? Calgary already has more than enough of those guys.

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#36 T&A4Flames
August 16 2012, 07:25PM
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Colin wrote:

Again ALL of those points were from a guy who was riding a career high SH% that is completely unsustainable(Huddlers even worse off), is 28 and has only ever got above 40 points once in his career. As well as 2nd highest team PDO (think luck), only Todd Bertuzzi was higher. The only way he gets close to what he produced in Detroit in Calgary is if he manges to stick a leprochon up his ass the entire season. He also managed to start most of his shifts in the Ozone, a hefty amount if I remember correctly, that won't be happening in Calgary, he's look at probably a 5-8% decrease in starts in the Ozone. If I remember an article from Canucks Army, those 5-8% Ozone starts can account for as much as 5 points or more.

And lots of people can hit 60 points in a season, fun story, Ales Kotalik once hit 60 points in a season.

So when you factor in his Ozone starts, SH%, PDO and line mate of Zetterberg you have a recipe for DISASTER. He is making 3M this year, he's only going to go up after his last season, are you comfortable paying him 4.5 or 5 million per season for a guy who's more than likely a really good third liner or maybe average 2nd liner? Calgary already has more than enough of those guys.

I've said it before. Make the trade. Flip Filppula with Cammi or Tangs, Byron or Nemo and if you have to add in Smith for Bobby Ryan. That seems like a hell of deal for ANA. They get the depth they were looking for including that 2nd line C. We get the future captain of this team. A guy who can play any FWD position and is 25 or less. We would probably also be able to get a 2nd and 5th in that deal as well to place the ones we are missing. Ericsson fill out our 2nd D pairing as a shut down guy + we get another prospect (or pick) out of it. Works for me!

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#37 PrairieStew
August 16 2012, 07:27PM
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@Colin

Career shooting percentage is 13.0. 16 is out of the norm a bit, but not crazy numbers like Glencross this past year. I was actually impressed with the ES assists more than anything.

He has played more each year and he just missed 40 points a couple of times due to missing a few games. 174 ES points in last 5 years, while averaging only 1034 minutes per year at ES. Thats 2.01 esp/60, 2.68 last season. By comparison Jokinen only 1.79 over the last 5 season and Iggy 2.38 (2.03 last year).

While last year may have been a career year for the guy - who is to say that if he played another 300 minutes he doesn't come close to repeating those numbers ? 28 is not that old, 30 or 31 and I'd be more cautious. In term of ice time look at Stajan 1550 minutes 5 years ago in Toronto and less than 800 last year, no wonder he has no production !

$4m in this environment is not much different than the $6 you are paying Bouwmeester for his no offence, no physical play brand of defending.

I'm just saying - it's not a potential disaster, I think a guy who has played in that environment in Detroit would be an asset.

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#38 mattyc
August 16 2012, 07:35PM
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Colin wrote:

Again ALL of those points were from a guy who was riding a career high SH% that is completely unsustainable(Huddlers even worse off), is 28 and has only ever got above 40 points once in his career. As well as 2nd highest team PDO (think luck), only Todd Bertuzzi was higher. The only way he gets close to what he produced in Detroit in Calgary is if he manges to stick a leprochon up his ass the entire season. He also managed to start most of his shifts in the Ozone, a hefty amount if I remember correctly, that won't be happening in Calgary, he's look at probably a 5-8% decrease in starts in the Ozone. If I remember an article from Canucks Army, those 5-8% Ozone starts can account for as much as 5 points or more.

And lots of people can hit 60 points in a season, fun story, Ales Kotalik once hit 60 points in a season.

So when you factor in his Ozone starts, SH%, PDO and line mate of Zetterberg you have a recipe for DISASTER. He is making 3M this year, he's only going to go up after his last season, are you comfortable paying him 4.5 or 5 million per season for a guy who's more than likely a really good third liner or maybe average 2nd liner? Calgary already has more than enough of those guys.

Colin,

I tend to agree with you, but it's not as if Filppula is a horrible player. Players tend to regress to their individual career means, not league means (it's true most players trend towards league average). Filppula has shot 13% in his career so while 16% is a little high, it's not as if we should be expecting 8% out of him next year.

It's the same story with PDO. PDO should regress to HIS average which could be close to 1000, but it's probably worth noting that his PDO has only been below the magic number (987) once (when he only played 55 games in 09-10).

Would I get rid of Bouwmeester to get Filppula? no, not a chance! But he's not Ales Kotalik.

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#39 44stampede
August 16 2012, 08:00PM
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Colin wrote:

Again ALL of those points were from a guy who was riding a career high SH% that is completely unsustainable(Huddlers even worse off), is 28 and has only ever got above 40 points once in his career. As well as 2nd highest team PDO (think luck), only Todd Bertuzzi was higher. The only way he gets close to what he produced in Detroit in Calgary is if he manges to stick a leprochon up his ass the entire season. He also managed to start most of his shifts in the Ozone, a hefty amount if I remember correctly, that won't be happening in Calgary, he's look at probably a 5-8% decrease in starts in the Ozone. If I remember an article from Canucks Army, those 5-8% Ozone starts can account for as much as 5 points or more.

And lots of people can hit 60 points in a season, fun story, Ales Kotalik once hit 60 points in a season.

So when you factor in his Ozone starts, SH%, PDO and line mate of Zetterberg you have a recipe for DISASTER. He is making 3M this year, he's only going to go up after his last season, are you comfortable paying him 4.5 or 5 million per season for a guy who's more than likely a really good third liner or maybe average 2nd liner? Calgary already has more than enough of those guys.

Exactly.

BTW this is a similar argument for Hudler. It's a bad bet to replicate a decent season without the same elite linemate(s) and considering that they haven't done it consistently. How rare is it where a player "figures it out" after 6 seasons and continues to produce at a high level? Especially with all the advanced numbers pointing in the wrong direction! It was one season of decent numbers. I would bet a lot on Fillpula regressing to the norm of his career.

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#40 PrairieStew
August 16 2012, 08:41PM
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@44stampede

And that "norm" is 35 ESP per season, which would have placed him 3rd on last years Flames behind Iggy and Jokinen in considerably fewer minutes, but if it is closer to the 54 ESP he had last year he would have been first ( as he was in Detroit)

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#41 Danger
August 16 2012, 08:54PM
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Well, in Philly, Holmgren just signed Wayne Simmonds to a long term contract so I assume that means he's about to be traded... could be part of a decent package for JBo, and they certainly need help on defence! Heck, maybe we can send them Sarich too, while we're at it.../sarcasm

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#42 44stampede
August 16 2012, 09:50PM
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PrairieStew wrote:

And that "norm" is 35 ESP per season, which would have placed him 3rd on last years Flames behind Iggy and Jokinen in considerably fewer minutes, but if it is closer to the 54 ESP he had last year he would have been first ( as he was in Detroit)

Playing with who??? We don't have half a Zetterberg on this team. It's like Hudler. I think he is a good enough player but has to be sheltered. The league is full of players with one good year (or a few), playing with good players, leave and go to another team where they are expected to be at the same level playing harder minutes for double-triple the salary (which the team they just came from knew they were not worth and probably could have matched).

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#43 schevvy
August 17 2012, 11:50AM
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Scott Hannan has signed a 1 year deal for 1M with the Preds. Honestly, I would have taken him at that money over Sarich's new deal, but oh well. Not really a loss. Good luck in Nashville Scott

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#44 Chris
August 17 2012, 01:00PM
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@Reidja

> I do not talk about the CBA.

That's OK for now. You'll have plenty of opportunity this fall.

I'm thinking that since most U.S. teams have their best market share after the NFL season ends, that it'll take 'till at least January before we get hockey back again. :(

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#45 Reidja
August 17 2012, 08:31PM
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@Chris

Ahem. No comment.

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#46 Colin
August 18 2012, 08:53AM
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PrairieStew wrote:

Career shooting percentage is 13.0. 16 is out of the norm a bit, but not crazy numbers like Glencross this past year. I was actually impressed with the ES assists more than anything.

He has played more each year and he just missed 40 points a couple of times due to missing a few games. 174 ES points in last 5 years, while averaging only 1034 minutes per year at ES. Thats 2.01 esp/60, 2.68 last season. By comparison Jokinen only 1.79 over the last 5 season and Iggy 2.38 (2.03 last year).

While last year may have been a career year for the guy - who is to say that if he played another 300 minutes he doesn't come close to repeating those numbers ? 28 is not that old, 30 or 31 and I'd be more cautious. In term of ice time look at Stajan 1550 minutes 5 years ago in Toronto and less than 800 last year, no wonder he has no production !

$4m in this environment is not much different than the $6 you are paying Bouwmeester for his no offence, no physical play brand of defending.

I'm just saying - it's not a potential disaster, I think a guy who has played in that environment in Detroit would be an asset.

His career shooting percentage of 13 is high because of two season close to 16% that are completely unsustainable. If you removed those two season and then averaged his SH% you get closer to 11%, which isn't that bad in and of itself, but still high compared to the rest of the league. Could we expect a season of somewhere of 11%-13%, most likely, but then do we give him a contrat extension of 5+ years at 4.5-5 million(or more) a season for that and hope for more of the same.

For example, look at Datsyuk's SH%, after his first 5 full season his SH% was hovering around 16.6%, it's now at 14.4% and other than a 16.8 season, his SH% for the last 6 years is actually trending closer to 12.5% or so. And that's for a forward like Datsyuk who is one of the top players in the league, best two way forward and one of the best possession players in the league as well.

A forward like Filppula who is NOT going to get zone starts like he did in Detroit, NOT going to be playing with one of the best players in the league like Zetterberg, NOT going to have one of the best defensive players of all time on the backend, is NOT going to repeat what he has done in Calgary what he's done in Detroit. When Filppula was not playing with Zetterberg his Corsi droped, when FN looked at Huddlers WOWY numbers, they were not bad when broken apart from Zetterberg, but when Filppula was without Huddler or Zetterberg, that guy was getting his Corsi handed to him. And with our already weak possession/corsi players here it is not going to get any better.

Filppula is the definition of a buy HIGH player.

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