Flames 5 Early Season Surprises

Kent Wilson
January 29 2013 08:44AM

 


 

Four Games isn't enough for anyone to be engaging in any sort of meaningful analysis unfortunately. Let's put it this way, in the past I had counted 10-game samples where Matthew Lombardi led the team in possession rate. I always had a soft spot for Lombo, but he was never the best forward on this team at any point during his tenure here.

As noted previously, weird stuff is going to happen in small bursts, especially early in the seaason. With that caveat noted, here's some of the surprises that have emerged from the Flames first 10 days of 2013.

1.) Lee Stempniak, Superstar!

He leads the team in points, plus/minus, powerplay goals and is second in shots on net to Jarome Iginla. And it's not just the superficial numbers that are good for Stempniak. Of regular Calgary forwards, he currently has the best corsi rate as well

Stempniak teamed up with Backlund much of the time last year and together they managed similarly good possession rates, so the corsi thing is nothing new. Still. beyond the numbers, Stempniak has passed the eye test as well - he looks like a man who hit the ground running coming out of the lock-out and has become a go-to player under Hartley. Previously a third line option, Stempniak has averaged more than 18 minutes of ice for the Flames new bench boss despite the team's notable depth on the wings.

It's unlikely Stempniak will continue to be a point-per-game player indefinitely given his career to date, but he's certainly looking like a nice value signing at $2.5M per year.

2.) Brodie Overtakes Butler

TJ Brodie established himself as a capable 3rd pairing option last season and after taking against, obvious step forward in the AHL with the Heat scratching him in the Flames season opener seemed like an odd choice. The Flames lost and the kid got a chance the next game where he showcased the mobility and pin-point accurate headman passes that marked his performances in Abbotsford all year.

Since then he has moved up the rotation and landed onto the second pairing with Dennis Wideman.

What's more surprising is his promotion has come at the expesne of Chris Butler, who spent almost all of last season facing the heavies with Jay Bouwmeester.

Now, there was always a sense that Bouwmeester was carrying Butler to a significant degree, in part because of the younger guy's limited experience with toug minutes and in part because Butler visibly struggled to keep up some nights.

That said, it's still unexpected to see him lose his spot in the lineup entriely, particularly to a sophomore. It's a situation that might not persist long-term, although Brodie hasn't stumbled at all in his new role so far.

3.) Flames Powerful PP

Last year the Flames man advantage was actually pretty effective, finishing 13th overall with a 17.7% success rate. The team was only middling in terms of actually getting shots on net and in fact was one of the worst clubs in the league in terms of shots/60 minutes of play through the first few months.

Calgary has scored on 29.4% of their PP's so far this year (4th overall), but even more impressive is the fact they're currently third in the league with an average of 64.6 shots/hour at 5on4. In contrast, they were at just 48.6 last season.

Maybe it's just a nice run over 4 games or maybe the new coaching staff and roster additions really have improved Calgary's man advantage to a significant degree. We'll only know for sure at the end of the year.

4.) Fast Starting Jarome

If I was asked to bet on anything coming out of the work stoppage I would have put my money on Jarome Iginla having a slow start to the season. He didn't play during the lock-out and will be 36 years old come July. It was a pefect recipe for the captain to spend the first 10+ games finding his legs. Add in Alex Tanguay trying to figure out how to play center at the NHL level again and you had a recipe for a problematic first line.

Instead, Iginla has played like a man who shed a few years in the off-season. Some persistently poor habits that had creeped into his game the last few years (skating into coverage in the shallow end of the offensive zone, giving the puck away in the neutral zone, etc.) have been refreshingly absent from his game so far this season. He's never going to be a paragon of defensive acumen, but Iginla has seemed quicker and more involved all over the ice than I remember him under Sutter.

What's more, he's consistently dangerous in the offensive zone again as demonstrated by his 19 shots on goal (4.5/game). Iginla's shot rate has consistently fallen since 2008-09 0 last year his 251 in 82 games (3.01) were the fewest he'd managed since 2000-01. 

The points haven't really been there for Iginla so far (3 assists in 4 games) but they will if he continues to play like this.

 5.) The Oilers Still Suck

Haha, just kidding. That's not a surprise.

39d8109299a9795cb3b41a4e9b49d501
Former Nations Overlord. Current FN contributor and curmudgeon For questions, complaints, criticisms, etc contact Kent @ kent.wilson@gmail. Follow him on Twitter here.
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#51 T&A4Flames
January 29 2013, 03:06PM
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Vintage Flame wrote:

Looking into the the issue with Ramo and waivers, came across this.

Return waivers
Players who play ice hockey outside of North America during a regular season and who are not on loan from a NHL club must also be placed on waivers if they are signed to play in the NHL. If the player is picked up by another NHL club on waivers, the player must be placed on waivers again before a further trade or loan can take place.

Not sure what the deal is under the new CBA, but this kinda entails that Ramo would ahve to clear waivers before signing with the Flames.

Sort of disturbing if this is true. I hope I'm missing something here

Uh yea, if I'm reading that right.... that... sucks!!!

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#52 SeanCharles
January 29 2013, 03:12PM
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@Vintage Flame

Since Ramo has only played 48 NHL games I don't beleive he has to pass through waivers.. just guessing here but, as stated I dont think the Flames trade for him if he had to pass through waivers..Another possibility is he would have to pass through waivers mid-season, but not in the offseason...?

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#53 SmellOfVictory
January 29 2013, 03:34PM
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Vintage Flame wrote:

Looking into the the issue with Ramo and waivers, came across this.

Return waivers
Players who play ice hockey outside of North America during a regular season and who are not on loan from a NHL club must also be placed on waivers if they are signed to play in the NHL. If the player is picked up by another NHL club on waivers, the player must be placed on waivers again before a further trade or loan can take place.

Not sure what the deal is under the new CBA, but this kinda entails that Ramo would ahve to clear waivers before signing with the Flames.

Sort of disturbing if this is true. I hope I'm missing something here

It's a little sketchy, because I believe that piece of CBA is meant primarily for undrafted free agents (correct me if I'm wrong). He may be subject to waivers regardless, though.

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#54 seve927
January 29 2013, 03:37PM
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"Players who play in another league at the start of the NHL season have to go through waivers when signed by an NHL team."

This from thehockeywriters.com. That would suggest he would have to go through waivers if they wanted to sign him this year, but not at the start of next.

The rules may have changed anyway - like there's no reentry waivers anymore. This seems more like reentry to me, maybe it's gone too.

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#55 Baalzamon
January 29 2013, 04:08PM
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ChinookArch wrote:

No offense, but that would be a terrible move.

I know a lot of fans were not happy with Butler last year. Replacing a popular Robin Reghr would have been tough enough, if he didn't struggle in role on the top pairing. As bad as he appeared at times, imagine the carnage if Sarich or god-forbid Babchuk was put in as the Flames #2 defensemen.

I liked Sarich 4 years ago, but the game has passed him by. Babchuk on the other hand is likely the worst defensemen with a current NHL contract in hand.

OF COURSE it would be a terrible move. I'm one of the biggest Butler defenders out there, and conversely I'm pretty much completely derisive of Babchuk. If you read my comment carefully, I never once suggested that the Flames SHOULD do that. I suggested that it looks like they were GOING to do it.

I also suggested that it might be Smith and not Butler on the trade block.

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#56 ChinookArch
January 29 2013, 04:20PM
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This is actually pretty interesting list:

1. Stempniak is a very streaky player, but I have to say this year he really seems have taken his game to a new level. Hope his play continues, even after his numbers regress.

2. I'm becoming repetitive here, but if Cory Sarich didn't get signed to a $2M contract for this year and next (with a traditional Flames NTC) by the GM, I believe Hartley would be free to play Butler instead of Sarich. Welcome to Flames politics.

3. The PP is probably the Flames best team asset right now. While they have 2 decent units now that are producing. I actually believe they could improve with guys like Hudler and Cervenka placed in the mix regularly.

4. I really like what Iginla has done so far. Maybe he's maximizing his options. If he's great, he may get offers by a contender to help the win a cup. If that doesn't come to fruition, he can sign a big time, long term contract and retire a Flame. You know that he has to be thinking of his next contract.

5. The Oilers really do suck! While I enjoyed the game on Saturday, I wish the Edmontonians would have brought their "A" game.

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#57 FireOnIce
January 29 2013, 04:34PM
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@T&A4Flames

I don't know why you're all so surprised the Flames would put themselves in this predicament. Have they done many things in the past few years that make sense? Even in the past year?

Re-signing Sarich after his cry fest (for 2 years!) and re-signing Babchuk after his being awful at hockey should've been signs that this management team doesn't know what it's doing.

Trade for the rights to Kerri Ramo, who they may lose to waivers like Nabokov? Completely unsurprising. Feaster probably got hoodwinked by Montreal, whose management team probably had to keep from bursting into laughter the whole time.

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#58 Willi P
January 29 2013, 05:24PM
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FireOnIce wrote:

I don't know why you're all so surprised the Flames would put themselves in this predicament. Have they done many things in the past few years that make sense? Even in the past year?

Re-signing Sarich after his cry fest (for 2 years!) and re-signing Babchuk after his being awful at hockey should've been signs that this management team doesn't know what it's doing.

Trade for the rights to Kerri Ramo, who they may lose to waivers like Nabokov? Completely unsurprising. Feaster probably got hoodwinked by Montreal, whose management team probably had to keep from bursting into laughter the whole time.

As you stated, the Flames traded for Karri Rämö's rights. I am quite sure this means he does not have to clear waivers to sign. Why would Feaster bother if that was the case? Let's not forget, he is a Lawyer (and an NHL GM). He probably understood the rules before making the deal.

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#59 Robhouli
January 29 2013, 06:45PM
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Nobody had the rights to Nabakov( San Jose didn't re-sign him), so when he started in the KHL and then negotiated a contract with an NHL team he fell into the category of having to clear waivers. Because the Flames own the rights to Ramos, he can negotiate and play here without clearing waivers. However he would not be allowed to play in the AHL this year, he would have to clear waivers to send him down.

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#60 Baalzamon
January 29 2013, 07:44PM
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It's all a moot point, really, since there's virtually no chance Ramo crosses the pond this season. Even if the Flames are considering it (which, in all honesty, is possible) Avangard will almost certainly go deep in the playoffs this year.

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#61 Willi P
January 29 2013, 08:04PM
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Baalzamon wrote:

It's all a moot point, really, since there's virtually no chance Ramo crosses the pond this season. Even if the Flames are considering it (which, in all honesty, is possible) Avangard will almost certainly go deep in the playoffs this year.

Baalzamon, I wasn't thinking about this year. Do you know (or anybody else), do these rights expire?

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#62 Willi P
January 29 2013, 08:32PM
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To answer my own question, it appears that the Flames own his rights until the 2014 offseason (Flames own his rights until he turns 28). If he doesn't play this year, looks like he will have to be signed next year or they lose his rights at the end of the season. Given his performance in the KHL, I would sign him to a 1-2 year deal next year (if he doesn't end up here this year) and play him many more games than the normal backup plays historically (depending on performance after "X" amount of games).

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#63 RKD
January 29 2013, 10:53PM
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As Flames fans we can only hope it's been a coaching issue.

Hartley preaches possession and uptempo style. The players brought aboard with Hudler, Cevernka, and Baertschi all possess that skill.

Stemp has been really strong, good for him I think he was really frustrated by the injury last season and wants to prove again he can be a go to guy.

Not surprised Brodie has taken the next step, Butler had a lot of brutal moments last season. He was as soft if not softer than Jay-Bo. Other teams forwards would just skate around him and score and he barely flinched!

Still a long way to go, beating the Oilers is nice but the real measuring stick will come against a powerhouse like Chicago.

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#64 Vintage Flame
January 29 2013, 11:44PM
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@SmellOfVictory

It appears sketchy to me as well. That's why I said it depends on the new CBA.

Under the previous rules for waivers, a goalie was exempt from waivers if he had played less than 80 games in the NHL or was within 6 years of his ELC, which ever came first, which Ramo would clearly fall under.

However, if a goalie played more than 11 games in the first year of his ELC then that 6 year period was reduced to four years, then regardless of how many games he played, that goalie would be waiver eligible.

Ramo played 24 games in first season, so his exempt period would be reduced to four years, which would make him waiver eligible.

Like I said that was under the old CBA and I think there is also merit to that he would Not have to go through waivers if the Flame waited to sign him in the off-season... but I'm no CBA expert so don't quote me on that.

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#65 Vintage Flame
January 29 2013, 11:48PM
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@Willi P

As you stated, the Flames traded for Karri Rämö's rights. I am quite sure this means he does not have to clear waivers to sign. Why would Feaster bother if that was the case? Let's not forget, he is a Lawyer (and an NHL GM). He probably understood the rules before making the deal.

Yea.. I have to agree with this. The waiver alternative seems like just too much of a gaffe, that the Flames wouldn't be aware that that was the situation.

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#66 Phil
January 29 2013, 11:50PM
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Kent..... You should try this.... This is what I get when I click on your name while reading Ryan Pikes comments.

The page you were looking for doesn't exist.

You may have mistyped the address or the page may have moved.

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#67 the-wolf
January 30 2013, 06:41AM
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kittensandcookies wrote:

You're the one that asserts that "sheltering" prospects makes them "better", whatever "better" means.

You're a funny guy. You bitch and whine about how much the team sucks year after year (which, hey, it's true - they suck), and when someone finally shows up that has some potential, you want to play the losers over him. Good job.

And maybe you've totally forgotten about Iginla's history, but he played junior, came up for some Flames playoff games, and never went back down. He was obviously ruined.

How about you listen to what the Hat said? He made some good points.

I never said "shelter," you really like to twist people's words.

I do think he'd benefit from finishing the year in Abby, top minutes, pp, pk, all that stuff.

I've also said he's capable of playing in the NHL and if he's playing top 6, then fine.

If he's not playing top 6 though, I think it's better for his development to be in the AHL.

Part of Detroit's success in drafting lies in their development and letting players 'over-ripen' as they put it. I believe development is just as key as drafting is. You can contrast that with any number of teams who have rushed and ruined prospects.

Calgary has had several players with great junior pedigress, lots of hype, pegged as scorers and the team wouldn't live with their mistakes on the top 2 lines, but wouldn't let them stay down and dominate a lower league until they had the confidence to walk straight into the NHL. Those players were either turned into checkers or found their scoring touch after being traded.

Now, I'm not saying Baertschi would be ruined if left on the 4th line (though I don't get how that helps an offensive player develop his game), just that there's no harm in him staying down.

Not everyone is Iginla, btw. Iginla is a 500 goal scorer and a probale HOF'er and one of the only prospects in the last 17+ years the Flames let play in the top 6 and lived with his mistakes.

I've stated I want to build the team around Baertschi, Backlund and Brodie. But Baertschi on the 4th line is stupid and a waste of development.

Backlund, btw, is a good example. He totally would've benifited from another year in the AHL developing his offensive game. And, he was close to being ruined here by being buried on the bottom 6 all the time. Thank goodness for the lockout. Playing in Sweden is what's given him his swagger back and thankfuklly Hartley is playing him top 6. He still has a lot to prove, but early results are promising, but if there was no lockout and he was 3rd line again, where would his career end up?

I'm waiting for the Flames to miss again this year, Iginla ask to be moved and hopefully see some sort of rebuild that doesn't revolve around 30-ish year old castoffs from other teams.

Does that clear things up?

I love your passsion.

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#68 Vowswithin
January 30 2013, 07:06AM
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Vintage Flame wrote:
As you stated, the Flames traded for Karri Rämö's rights. I am quite sure this means he does not have to clear waivers to sign. Why would Feaster bother if that was the case? Let's not forget, he is a Lawyer (and an NHL GM). He probably understood the rules before making the deal.

Yea.. I have to agree with this. The waiver alternative seems like just too much of a gaffe, that the Flames wouldn't be aware that that was the situation.

CBA rule 13.23 states: In the event a professional or former professional Player plays in a league outside North America after the start of the NHL Regular Season, other than on Loan from his Club, he may thereafter play in the NHL during that Playing Season (including Playoffs)only if he has first either cleared or been obtained via Waivers."

However, one of the player-friendly changes negotiated in the new CBA was a relaxing of rule 13.23 in certain situations. According to the Summary of Terms (Page 19, Article 13, section 1) of the new NHL-NHLPA agreement is the following amendment: "All Players on a Club’s Reserve List and Restricted Free Agent List will be exempt from application of CBA 13.23 Waivers in the case of a mid-season signing."

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#69 don'ttradeourcore
January 30 2013, 07:59AM
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@McRib

I agree, this team is coming together and I love the depth Hudler and Cervenka bring. We are four lines deep now and somebody will have to explain to me how we won't make a serious run at the cup. Don't wory about the icetime for Sven , the time to win is now. Bouwmeester looks like he's in line for the norris and I would take Backlund over RNH any day. If Feaster can get Igqy and Kipper on extensions this team is set for a long time. I am stoked. Sure, we only have one win, but get ready to watch this team roll!

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#70 the-wolf
January 30 2013, 08:02AM
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don'ttradeourcore wrote:

I agree, this team is coming together and I love the depth Hudler and Cervenka bring. We are four lines deep now and somebody will have to explain to me how we won't make a serious run at the cup. Don't wory about the icetime for Sven , the time to win is now. Bouwmeester looks like he's in line for the norris and I would take Backlund over RNH any day. If Feaster can get Igqy and Kipper on extensions this team is set for a long time. I am stoked. Sure, we only have one win, but get ready to watch this team roll!

Trying to figure out if this post is facetious or serious?

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#71 vowswithin
January 30 2013, 08:23AM
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the-wolf wrote:

Trying to figure out if this post is facetious or serious?

Edmonton Fan Troll?

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#72 Kurt
January 30 2013, 08:31AM
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the-wolf wrote:

Trying to figure out if this post is facetious or serious?

If its serious, this guy is delusional... I'm pretty sure he is joking.

The REALLY sad thing is that we are wondering if he is joking or not.

The line has blurred to the point where we aren't sure if a guy cheering for a cup run, saying that Backlund is better than Nugent Hopkins and that Sven's icetime is OK (because the time to win is now) is either joking or maybe a real fan. Tells me some people believe this guy, or at least parts of what he is saying...

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#73 Monaertchi Gaudnett
January 30 2013, 08:59AM
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"I, for one, welcome our new ant overlords."

We've had 1 win, which was also our 1 "complete" game, against a team that might make the playoffs if their goalie is lights-out all season long. After that 1 game everyone starts throwing around hyperbole like "Iggy is awesome again", and "JBo is awesome", and "Stajan isn't awful". Bunch of fanatics.

So it's no wonder people aren't sure if don'ttradeourcore is serious or not.

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#74 TheRealPoc
January 30 2013, 09:34AM
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"Now, there was always a sense that Bouwmeester was carrying Butler to a significant degree, in part because of the younger guy's limited experience with tough minutes and in part because Butler visibly struggled to keep up some nights."

Understatement of the year.

It's far too easy to give Butler a free pass for last year because of his QualComp and ZS. Yeah, he faced tough minutes all year, but that doesn't mean he'd improve drastically if you started finding him softer minutes. This is a perfect example of a guy who didn't pass the eye test at all last year - turnstiled far too easily, lost coverage in his own zone repeatedly, had difficulty switching off with his partner and barely threw a hit all season long...and that's just his play without the puck. The pace of the game might be more palatable for him against weaker lines, but if his basic skillset doesn't improve, it won't matter.

I'll take Derek Smith over Butler every day of the week, at just over half the cap hit to boot, thank you very much.

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#75 T&A4Flames
January 30 2013, 09:57AM
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Monaertchi Gaudnett wrote:

"I, for one, welcome our new ant overlords."

We've had 1 win, which was also our 1 "complete" game, against a team that might make the playoffs if their goalie is lights-out all season long. After that 1 game everyone starts throwing around hyperbole like "Iggy is awesome again", and "JBo is awesome", and "Stajan isn't awful". Bunch of fanatics.

So it's no wonder people aren't sure if don'ttradeourcore is serious or not.

Exactly. Like I said earlier, it's 1 win. Also, we should remember that they played their most complete game and looked very good, EDM looked not so good and at the end, we still only won by 1 goal

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#76 Kevin R
January 30 2013, 10:16AM
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TheRealPoc wrote:

"Now, there was always a sense that Bouwmeester was carrying Butler to a significant degree, in part because of the younger guy's limited experience with tough minutes and in part because Butler visibly struggled to keep up some nights."

Understatement of the year.

It's far too easy to give Butler a free pass for last year because of his QualComp and ZS. Yeah, he faced tough minutes all year, but that doesn't mean he'd improve drastically if you started finding him softer minutes. This is a perfect example of a guy who didn't pass the eye test at all last year - turnstiled far too easily, lost coverage in his own zone repeatedly, had difficulty switching off with his partner and barely threw a hit all season long...and that's just his play without the puck. The pace of the game might be more palatable for him against weaker lines, but if his basic skillset doesn't improve, it won't matter.

I'll take Derek Smith over Butler every day of the week, at just over half the cap hit to boot, thank you very much.

Wow. Last year was Butler's 1st full season in the NHL. With Buffalo he was up & down struggling to stick in their top 6. He gets traded & thrown in there & was doing a functional job in the 5-6 pairing when the injuries hit & he won the top rotation by default. When has Smith played top 4 tough minutes? Then I'm sick and tired of hearing how he brought JBO's game crashing down. Newsflash, JBO struggled for years before Butler came to town. I think another name has more to do with JBO's huge disappointment, his name is SUTTER.

Now that Brodie is clearly stepped up his game & playing well in the 3-4 rotation, Butler should be in that 5-6 rotation with Sarich. We should be showcasing him so that Feaster can get at least a 2nd rounder back for him if it is felt Smith or Babchuk or Carson or Breen can bring the same as Butler to that bottom pairing. Otherwise anything less does not offset the value of the depth Butler brings. This Butler witch hunt smells similar to the Backlund witch hunt last year.

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#77 the-wolf
January 30 2013, 10:23AM
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Kevin R wrote:

Wow. Last year was Butler's 1st full season in the NHL. With Buffalo he was up & down struggling to stick in their top 6. He gets traded & thrown in there & was doing a functional job in the 5-6 pairing when the injuries hit & he won the top rotation by default. When has Smith played top 4 tough minutes? Then I'm sick and tired of hearing how he brought JBO's game crashing down. Newsflash, JBO struggled for years before Butler came to town. I think another name has more to do with JBO's huge disappointment, his name is SUTTER.

Now that Brodie is clearly stepped up his game & playing well in the 3-4 rotation, Butler should be in that 5-6 rotation with Sarich. We should be showcasing him so that Feaster can get at least a 2nd rounder back for him if it is felt Smith or Babchuk or Carson or Breen can bring the same as Butler to that bottom pairing. Otherwise anything less does not offset the value of the depth Butler brings. This Butler witch hunt smells similar to the Backlund witch hunt last year.

I'll agree with all of that except with the caveat that I still feel JBo carried Butler to a large degree, but not that his game came "crashing down." Which isn't Butler's fault per se, as noted he was thrown to the wolves, but it's also obvious he's not a top 4 D, at least not yet.

I think Butler on the 3rd pairing works though and is better than Sarich for sure.

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#78 Baalzamon
January 30 2013, 10:29AM
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@Kevin R

I don't know where you're getting that Butler spent any time on the 3rd line last year. He was paired with Bouwmeester pretty much the moment he arrived in Calgary.

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#80 Kevin R
January 30 2013, 11:17AM
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Baalzamon wrote:

I don't know where you're getting that Butler spent any time on the 3rd line last year. He was paired with Bouwmeester pretty much the moment he arrived in Calgary.

Before Gio went down, Butter had Butler bouncing around including time in the 5-6 pairing. Agreed, not many games in that pairing & I guess thats my point, maybe we should let the guy get his confidence & comfort back in that 5-6 pairing this year with Brodie stepping up. I would be the first one to agree he was in way over his head in the top 4 last year. I am sure Kent could find posts from several applauding Butlers performance compared to Regehr & how happy they were dumping salary & getting a more functional cheaper dman. Whatever, I think he's a good 5-6 option & should be in there. If not, lets move him while demand is out there & before his value plummetts to a 4th rounder sitting him in the press box. Sometimes when you snooze you lose.

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#81 SeanCharles
January 30 2013, 11:47AM
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Saw this in regards to Sopel which would pertain to the Ramo debate:

"according to the NHL, any player who dressed for a game in another league after Jan. 19 must clear waivers."

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#82 Baalzamon
January 30 2013, 03:46PM
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I'm not so sure we have to worry about Ramo whether re-entry waivers apply to him or not.

Supposing they do apply, that means he has to pass through waivers before he can join the Flames. Yes, fine. So what if he's claimed? If he's claimed (a la Nabokov) it will be by a team that needs goaltending. Which means it will be a team that needs Ramo to play now. Which means Ramo will have to go through waivers again. Which means the Flames can just claim him back.

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#83 etownman
February 03 2013, 04:48PM
Trash it!
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Props
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props

Hope your enjoying last place Kent! I guess there's no other direction to go but up but I highly doubt that's going to happen with Ma & Pa Kettle leading the charge! :-)

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