The Quarter-Pole FN Roundtable

Ryan Pike
November 19 2013 10:28AM

 

 

We've passed the 20-game mark of the 2013-14 Calgary Flames season, so roughly 25% of the games have been played. Thus, as per tradition, we've assembled the FN crew to discuss how the team is doing thus far. Join myself, Kent Wilson, Christian Roatis, Justin Azevedo and the Book of Loob as we attempt to make sense of the first quarter of the season. Then let us know what you think of the team's season thus far in the comments.

The Flames are in the first season of a self-admitted rebuild. Have the results in the standings and on the ice been what you expected them to be? Better? Worse?

Justin Azevedo: Pretty much exactly what I expected, actually. They're not a good team, but they're not a garbage one either. I think they'd be picking 5th overall as I write this so they're right where they should be. As league-wide PDO evens out, I think they move up one or two more spots.

Kent Wilson: Worse in terms of results (I figured them to be about an 80-point club), but better in terms of overall performance (less goaltending). When the Flames were healthy and skating an optimum line-up, they were competitive on most nights. Recent injuries plus a very tough schedule and some less than good luck has sunk their record, but I think they are some bright spots nonetheless.

Christian Roatis: They've been exactly what I expected. Starting strong and surprising some teams followed by a "coming back to Earth" of sorts. The work ethic and attention to the detail for the most part has been better than expected and the good ol' defensive zone breakdowns that lead to goals against are still alive and well.

Ryan Pike: They're about where I thought they would be. When fully healthy, the team has remarkable work ethic and just enough talent to grind out wins against most teams. When they're not, as we're seeing lately, they're taking it in the teeth a bit.

Book of Loob: I suppose I wouldn't have been surprised either way if they were doing better or worse than what they are, because I believe this team is both better and worse than how we would classify them. It`s odd to think that there have been stretched where the Flames are just dominating the other team and still ends up losing (usually due to goaltending) They are not a good team, nor are they a bad team, they`re just stuck somewhere just a little below the middle, so I guess I`m not shocked to see them where they are. But hey, this season is a free pass, so their spot in the standings is not really of any concern to me.

How would you grade the team's new faces since the summer?

JA: Galiardi and O'Brien have been pretty bad thus far. Like replacement level bad. Not very good for like 3 million dollars in salary. D. Jones is slower than advertised. He does have a good shot but he really struggles to get around the ice. C+. Monahan got the benefit of the bounces early on and his boxcars have fallen off. His underlying numbers have marginally improved, though, and he's 19. A-. Russell has been really good but he's getting the high ground with Wideman. He's been better than I expected and with this usage is a legit top-4 guy. The reason he's not getting an A is because I'm not sure Hartley can continue this type of usage indefinitely. B+. Colborne has been playing way over his head, so it's not totally his fault that he's looked so bad. He's a fourth liner right now, and there is no legit reason why he's getting top-6 minutes over Backlund. C. Smid gets an incomplete because I haven't seen much of him but he looks like your typical 4/5 guy.

KW: Monahan looks like an NHL center already, which is a huge predictor of future success when we're talking about a teenager. Kris Russell has also been a pleasant surprise. Although Hartley has put him in a position to succeed (high O-zone start and such), Russell has nevertheless managed to excel. I'm ambivalent at best about the rest except O'Brien. He's probably not an everyday NHLer.

CR: Monahan has been a great surprise, of course and already at 19 years of age he's selling tickets. A potential elite center in the making and an excellent choice at sixth overall. I've liked Jones a lot and Galiardi at times, while Russell has been a pleasant surprise. I've personally liked Joe Colborne (unlike everybody else) but I think he'd best suited as a third line player rather than the Top 6 or goon line assignments he seen so far this year. O'Brien has been okay, nothing good but nothing too bad, either.

RP: I've really enjoyed Kris Russell, who's criminally underrated, and Sean Monahan, who does a lot of little things really well. O'Brien's had a few rough patches in his own zone, and has really bad Corsi for somebody as shielded as he is on this team. Colborne, Galiardi and Jones have had their ups and downs. Smid's too early to tell.

BoL: Colborne is the meh-iest player in Flames history since Jeff Friesen. He seems like he should have the tools to be a success in this league and on this team, and I believe those tools exist, he just doesn't use them. It's frustrating to watch. Monahan, well, he's been good this whole time (mostly), and once he played ten games I was all on board for the Monarail. I still think it was a mistake to keep him up this season, but based on merit alone he deserves to be on the big club. I love watching Russell and Wideman together assuming they're in the offensive zone and not their own. Those two read each other very well offensively and I think it's paid some dividends for the team. Kris Russell may have finally found himself a home in this league. I've seen Smid play three games. I think it was a good trade, but it's too early to score his performance on this team. Shane O'Brien is bad, but I expected him to be worse. This doesn't say a lot. I can't tell the difference between Galiardi and Jones on most nights. I hate Reto Berra so hard.

What's your assessment of the team's goaltending this year? Do you feel there's a plan for the position going forward?

JA: Oh man, the goaltending. I thought that Calgary couldn't get less than they did last year - hell, last years was the worst there's been in like a decade. Berra and MacDonald have been brutal: both have an EVSV% that's sub-.890, which is about 25 points less than replacement-level. Rämö is still right around replacement level but the amount of opportunities he's gotten compared to the other two are miniscule. I feel as though Rämö will finish above .915, establishing himself as the only legit guy of the three. Going forward, the plan is "Jon Gillies". The other guys in the system don't have starter potential: all are backups at best.

KW: It has been below average as could be expected, although each guys has played so few games we can't really be sure of their true talent level. Demoting Joey MacDonald was the right move because there is no upside there. At some point, Hartley should start playing Ramo more because I consider him the better bet to at least be average in this league. It's entirely possible, though, that neither Ramo or Berra can hang at this level. If both sport .900 or worse save rates by the end of the year, the team should keep looking for an answer in the off-season.

CR: Awful. Yes, there have been some big saves here and there but outside of Berra's anomaly win in Chicago, it hasn't won them a game. Weak goals and juicy rebounds seem to be the group's trademark this year. Flames should have beat the Oilers but they didn't solely because of Berra. Jon Gillies and Jon(i) Ortio both look quite promising at this point with Ortio possibly seeing some NHL action this year. Those two are the only foreseeable hope the Flames have between the pipes at this point.

RP: The goaltending hasn't stolen any games - outside of the Chicago game that Berra won - and has actually given a few away. Keeping Berra and Ramo up is probably the best bet in terms of evaluation, but I can't help but feel that (a) we'll see Joni Ortio before the Olympic break and (b) the team's waiting for Jon Gillies to be ready for prime time.

BoL: Heinous. Flagrantly bad. Scandalous. Shocking. Kidd-esque. I knew goaltending was going to be a challenge going into the season, but I didn't think it could ever be as bad as it has been. This team could look like a decent squad out there if they could get a save or two along the way. I don't get why they're so scared to start Ramo, why they're so in love with Berra to keep starting him, and well at least they got Joey MacDonald right.

How would you grade head coach Bob Hartley so far this season?

JA: Depends where some of his ideas are coming from. There's three big issues: the treatment of Backlund and Baertschi, the treatment of Colborne and the love of Berra. I feel as though the first two are coming from the top, but that that last one is owned by him alone. Thus, C+.

KW: Average. His tough love routine with Backlund and Baertschi didn't much sense on the face of it and he has far too much interest in dressing an enforcer (or two) every night. That said, he's putting T.J. Brodie through the wringer (in a good way) and he's deploying guys like Wideman, Russell, Monahan and Hudler in a way that maximizes their chances of success.

CR: Average. Other than a few odd starting goaltending choices, he hasn't done anything wacky. The double benching of Baertschi was an odd choice for me but I'm sure he had his reasons.

RP: Bob's done a decent job. If I were given the 23 guys he's been given, I probably wouldn't do too many things differently. In terms of results, he got more juice out of the players in October than anyone expected and perhaps expectations for November were too high as a result. And I can't help but feel that the Baertschi and Backlund scratches were more about them working hard on off-days than their on-ice results.

BoL: I think most people know I'm not exactly a fan. I like the system he seems to have his place, but it's dependent on having the right players on the ice at the right time with the right teammates, and Hartley just doesn't know what any of that is. Burying Backlund with the Thug Squad, the tough love for Sven, the seemingly rosy circumstances for anyone else in a slump, well it's all pretty baffling. When I see that it's late in the third period, in a tie game, and Hartley has opted to throw the fourth line and Chris Butler's pairing on the ice to defend the tie, I want to be able to harness the power from all this delusion and use it to vanquish my enemies.

And how about general manager Jay Feaster?

JA: He hasn't really done much since the start of the season, but the team is competitive enough. B+.

KW: Nothing much to grade in terms of GM moves so far. Demoting MacDonald was good and the Colborne acquisition was a worthwhile gamble given the price. Smid was also a decent add, though I consider him a middling player at best. We'll see what he chooses to do once the trade deadline approaches and he has to make decisions on guys like Stajan, Cammalleri and Stempniak.

CR: Fantastic. We still have picks in the first three rounds of this draft and we haven't made any stupid trades. That's an A+ in my book.

RP: The Smid move was actually pretty crafty - giving up what are basically depth prospects in Calgary's system for a useful piece moving forward. None of the signings or off-season acquisitions are particularly bad for what they're being asked to do, and the Hudler signing has turned out to be pretty strong in retrospect.

BoL: Not a whole lot to go on so far this year. His moves in the offseason were middling at best, and I think the jury is still out on most of them. I understood the reasoning for the Colborne trade, so I don't hate it on principle, and I do think the Smid trade will end up looking like a steal, but it's too early to tell for any of this so far.

Biggest surprise of the first 20 games?

JA: Jiri Hudler's PPG pace is likely the biggest surprise, in my eyes. He's generating shots so he's gonna keep scoring. Probably not at the same pace, but he'll crest 50 points this year for sure. 

KW: Sean Monahan's offensive prowess. His output has a lot to do with the percentages, but he's been better than I expected in terms of execution in the offensive end so far. Also, TJ Galiardi's above average possession rate. The erstwhile Sharks forward has had a lot of trouble lighting the lamp and he struggled a lot versus the Stars, but otherwise the puck has been travelling in the right direction when he has been on the ice.

CR: Sean Monahan. He's been excellent through 20, better than I think anyone expected. Cammalleri gets an honourable mention for not sulking and playing his heart out and Hudler too for stacking up points.

RP: I didn't expect Jiri Hudler to be such an offensive threat, nor did I expect Kris Russell or Sean Monahan to be as good as they have been.

BoL: For me it's Kris Russell and Dennis Wideman. Kris Russell could prove to be a steal considering it cost what, a 5th rounder to get him. Just fun to watch when those guys have the puck at the attacking zone blueline. Also the performance of the Abbotsford Heat so far this season. That looks like a team that is poised to serve the Flames with solid depth in the coming years.

Biggest disappointment of the first 20 games?

JA: Other than Sean Monahan being kept up, the biggest disappointment for me is Mark Giordano being hurt for an extended amount of time.

KW: Aside from Glencross' first 10 games (yeesh), it has to be the goaltending. Although it's not wholly unexpected that Calgary's collection of unknown commodities would struggle, it's nevertheless still disappointing to see the team struggling with near-league worst puckstopping again.

CR: Karri Ramo. I thought he'd be waaaaaay better than he's been so far. He still has time to turn it around, albeit it's unlikely.

RP: I'll go with Curtis Glencross, but it's two parts: first, because he was so inconsistent to begin the year, and second, because he got hurt right when he had seemed to find his game.

BoL: I guess I would say the roles of Backlund, McGrattan, and Jackman, specifically when they're intertwined. I think it's dumb to have even one of the facepunchers in your lineup, let alone two, but when Backlund gets buried and has to carry those two with him, wasting his abilities as a possession centerman, that's when I really get mad. That should really be Joe Colborne's center spot, and it would look better if Lance Bouma and maybe, I don't know, David Jones when Curtis Glencross returns were manning the wings.

What does this team need to do to move along in their rebuild?

JA: Simple - keep giving prime ice time to UFAs, sell them at the deadline and wait till the draft. In the meantime, give minutes to the young players too. Lastly, for Christ's sake, stop scratching Sven and Mickis. 

KW: It needs to patiently develop their young assets and make as many good bets moving forward as possible. There's no magic bullet here - the Flames currently have zero elite talent at any position at the NHL level. It's really difficult to compete without one or two high level guys in the show. After that, they need to retain quality middle tier guys for when the kids start to get their legs and, eventually, they'll need to have goaltending when they are ready to climb out of the basement.

CR: A few more first round picks and patience. Flames need to try and cultivate a star or two in order to find success in a few years. Monahan looks to be tracking that way and drafting another stud or two to join Klimchuck, Gaudreau, Poirier, Granlund and company certainly won't hurt.

RP: Draft picks and patience. I figure as the Flames drift down in the standings, Feaster figures out which pending UFAs he can keep and jettisons the rest for future assets.

BoL: Stick to the script. You've identified you're rebuilding, you don't need to sell that to the fanbase, they're largely on board with the plan. Just give your young players the opportunity to learn the game at their own speed and hopefully this all rounds out into something competitive in a couple of years. I don't mean tanking, either. I hate tanking. I want to see this team put it's best foot forward every game, and to see the young kids be professionals about this, that they show some compassion and a desire to win, even if reality has other plans in mind. Part of growing a successful team is not surrounding them with a culture of losing. Tanking is one way this culture gets instilled.

What's your prediction for how the team fares in the remaining 62 games?

JA: Much like they've looked over the last 20, methinks. Hopefully a combo of Giordano coming back and Rämö playing more will make the games a little more bearable to watch. 

KW: Not much will change. The current losing streak will and at some point they'll go on a winning streak or two, but it will even out to a playoff-less 2013-14. I still think they are a 78-82 point club over 82 games.

CR: They'll win a game here and there, maybe even hit a streak, but in the end finish bottom five and win the draft lottery, drafting Aaron Ekblad 1st overall and playing him with TJ Brodie forming an unstoppable duo of unstoppablness on the backend.  Exciting times.

RP: I fear that the latest stretch is more an indication of where this team lies than the October one - in terms of talent-level, not work ethic. My guess is the reality is somewhere in the middle, but this is probably a bottom-five team in the league, even with a lot of hard work.

BoL: If Reto Berra keeps getting all these starts foisted upon him, the team may never win a game again.

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Now in his third full season covering the Calgary Flames and the NHL, Ryan Pike is a Calgary native and FlamesNation's managing editor. He's trying to keep his head up, his stick on the ice and is giving it 110% every shift. You can also find his work at The Hockey Writers, the Wrestling Observer and Tough Talk MMA.
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#51 Skuehler
November 20 2013, 12:07AM
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I think some of the best things this season has been the mentoring of younger players by Hudler (Monohan), Wideman (Russell) and Giordano (Brodie). Not only are they contributing but they are really having a stabilizing affect on their proteges. Wouldn't Sven benefit from a similar arrangement with Cammy or Stemps?

Can't for the life of me understand why Ramo and Berra weren't eased into the pressure and pace of the NHL right from the start of the year by splitting starts for at least a quarter of the season. MacDonald could've been called upon if something went terribly wrong or an injury came up. Having him work alongside Ortio in Abbottsford seems like the best scenario. Calling up Berra and welcoming him to the NHL and the team the way they have couldn't possibly have turned out any differently. Set them up to succeed and earn a starters role, not set them up to fail by throwing them to the wolves.

I know nothing of coaching hockey, but I can't understand Hartley's logic so far this year at all with the lines. He had 1/2 a season, an off-season and a full camp to evaluate who should be on the club and what his lines should look like. Why not roll four lines with max one face-puncher, give them all fair ice time through the first two periods of each game and don't tamper with them for the first quarter season, then re-evaluate. If someone gets injured, call up a replacement and leave the other lines alone. This way you can spread your vets throughout the line-up and pair them up with the kids, not wear out your key guys (and prevent injuries), and compete better (we are basically a three line team right now). Especially so because we have no elite talent that requires "1st line" minutes and status. It feels to me like he is 'over-coaching', always reacting - indicating there may not be a master plan beyond trying to win every game.

Can anyone enlighten me as I really like Hartley and he seems to have the guys onboard, but can't understand his asset management and decision making process. I worry if he loses his players respect/trust, things could get ugly fast. All he's got right now is the players buy-in.

Also find it interesting that so many still think the best answers are outside the organization in the form of an unknown high-end draft pick, and the fire-sale of all vets for whatever market value they return.

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#52 ?
November 20 2013, 12:12AM
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Skuehler wrote:

I think some of the best things this season has been the mentoring of younger players by Hudler (Monohan), Wideman (Russell) and Giordano (Brodie). Not only are they contributing but they are really having a stabilizing affect on their proteges. Wouldn't Sven benefit from a similar arrangement with Cammy or Stemps?

Can't for the life of me understand why Ramo and Berra weren't eased into the pressure and pace of the NHL right from the start of the year by splitting starts for at least a quarter of the season. MacDonald could've been called upon if something went terribly wrong or an injury came up. Having him work alongside Ortio in Abbottsford seems like the best scenario. Calling up Berra and welcoming him to the NHL and the team the way they have couldn't possibly have turned out any differently. Set them up to succeed and earn a starters role, not set them up to fail by throwing them to the wolves.

I know nothing of coaching hockey, but I can't understand Hartley's logic so far this year at all with the lines. He had 1/2 a season, an off-season and a full camp to evaluate who should be on the club and what his lines should look like. Why not roll four lines with max one face-puncher, give them all fair ice time through the first two periods of each game and don't tamper with them for the first quarter season, then re-evaluate. If someone gets injured, call up a replacement and leave the other lines alone. This way you can spread your vets throughout the line-up and pair them up with the kids, not wear out your key guys (and prevent injuries), and compete better (we are basically a three line team right now). Especially so because we have no elite talent that requires "1st line" minutes and status. It feels to me like he is 'over-coaching', always reacting - indicating there may not be a master plan beyond trying to win every game.

Can anyone enlighten me as I really like Hartley and he seems to have the guys onboard, but can't understand his asset management and decision making process. I worry if he loses his players respect/trust, things could get ugly fast. All he's got right now is the players buy-in.

Also find it interesting that so many still think the best answers are outside the organization in the form of an unknown high-end draft pick, and the fire-sale of all vets for whatever market value they return.

I'm as lost as you are my friend. :)

Some decisions are ones that I like. Some choices that he makes just confuse me. As long as he doesn't screw up Sven, I'm willing to give him a chance.

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#53 Dave
November 20 2013, 07:15AM
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Just a random thought. If this season continues as it has 8th place team in the west will need 120 points to make the playoffs!!!! that's unreal!

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#54 Jeff In Lethbridge
November 20 2013, 08:51AM
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wineeditor wrote:

Why has Backlund been relegated to splitting time between the 3rd and 4th lines? He started off like a ball of fire. In the first 3 games he averaged over 16 even strength minutes per game. He was +2 with 4 “goals for” during that stretch. Over the next 7 games he played, with a one game exception, more even strength minutes than any Flame center. He averaged 14 even strength minutes per game He was not on the ice for any even strength goals for but was on the ice for 4 even strength goals against. The string came to an end when he was -2 in a game against Dallas. Colborne took his spot and over the next 6 games was on the ice for 5 even strength goals for and 5 even strength goals against. Over the next 3 games Colborne and Backlund essentially traded minutes with Colborne getting 36 minutes even strength time (+/- 0-3) with Backlund getting 33 minutes (+/- 2-2). During the last game of this 3 game stretch Colborne was -2 (again against Dallas) and Backlund took over. Neither stood out in Backlund’s first game back on Line 3 but after a couple of defensive miscues against Winnipeg Colborne took over. Next game who knows? I don’t believe Backlund being shuffled to line 4 has anything to do with offensive production. The first game against Dallas Backlund was 0-2. Colborne started in Backlunds place the next game and continued in that role until we played Dallas again where Colborne went 0-2 and was replaced by Backlund for Edmonton. Backlund retained his 3rd line role against Winnipeg despite not being on the ice for a positive goal against Edmonton. His place on the 3rd line was taken back by Colborne only after a series of missed defence assignments in our own end by Backlund. It is noteworthy that Colborne was +2 against Phoenix (the game preceding the Dallas game after which Backlund lost his third line role) but was not moved after that game despite Backlund being -1 in the Phoenix game. It was not until after the next game against Dallas where Backlund went -2 that Colborne was promoted. In a similar vein Hartley did not reward Backlund after his +2 game against Colorado but had to wait 1 more game to be promoted until after Colborne went -2. It seems fairly clear that Hartley is giving 3rd line minutes to the center ice man who seems to be getting results on the defensive side of the puck. When they miss their cues, forget assignments and go -2 they are moved off the 3rd line. Maybe people are right wrt “quality minutes” etc in the debate but IF Backlund is our best defensive center where is the responsibility placed when he misses cues and assignments in the D end? Everyone is accountable and if your forte is Defence you have to prove that game in and game out. If you don’t, someone will take your place.

your thoughts might be amazing, but there is noway one can read that block of alphabets... please mix in the odd paragraph, etc. you gave me a headache!

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#55 McRib
November 20 2013, 09:10AM
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@Jeff Lebowski

"Cammy, Stajan, Stempniak all need to be pushed out in trades ideally. The return will not be NHL pieces. It has to come from within. Literally."

I think this is why Hartley is pushing Backlund & Baertschi so hard. He has been told by management and recognizes that once the vets start heading out the door (Cammy, Stajan, Butler, etc) these two are going to be playing top minutes. Frame of thought being they better learn how to play in the other two zones while they still can, as they will be relied on heavily in the near future.

For the record I hope we keep Lee Stempniak he has shown great leadership qualities with this club and believe his value is fairly underrated on the trading block. As crazy as it sounds at this point we might even get better value for Stajan then Stempniak, thanks to an eastern reputation with Toronto.

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#56 piscera.infada
November 20 2013, 09:28AM
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@Skuehler

Re: Ramo/Berra - That's what's happening. Listen to any NHL goalie (or Goalie's anywhere), they'll tell you that the ideal situation is to play a string of games, as goaltending is a position in which comfort and preparation is key. Most feel as though they need to get in a groove. As such, I think having them play 'x' number of games in a row is much more effective than simply oscillating them game-in game-out.

Re: The "roll four lines" argument - I understand it, and it makes perfect sense. However, in the reality of the NHL its almost nonsensical in practice (and, I would have agreed with you in principle to start the season). Part of a rebuilding team is seeing players in different situations, that however, isn't something that can be forced. There are also different ideologies at play here than simply "trying to win every game" or "maximizing development". There has to be some reasonable thought given to maximizing assets (ie: the UFAs) value, or seeing where they fit into the grand scheme of things, finding out who can step up when a guy like Stajan (for instance) is sent packing, and players who are just having a good game. In short, it's not as simple as saying "I'll roll four lines evenly, and see where the chips fall", because ultimately they won't fall; they'll likely crash down and rain little flaming chips upon everyone.

Re: respect/trust - I actually don't think there's much chance of that happening this year. The buy-in has actually been incredible. I would say that across various professional sports leagues, this level of buy-in is unlike anything I've seen from a team that is bad, knows their bad, and is supposed to be bottom of the barrel. Sure, it hasn't translated to wins, but it's largely an effort thing at this point. The point is, if there are players (young or old) in this organization that believe they are so far above the greater goal here (which is, I assume, creating a championship team) then they can - and should - be replaced (a la Tanguay). That kind of thinking, regardless of who's coaching, runs completely contra the rebuild.

I understand things aren't running perfectly from a blogger/critic/fan/reporter perspective. The thing is, we all knew this was going to be tough and trying, so I don't really see what piling on the coach really does at this point. I for one, can start to see the fledgling stages of what this team is supposed to be about. I'm just excited to see how that evolves.

I'm not sure how long Hartley actually is for the organization, but I have a hard time believing he hasn't bought in to what the goal is from the organization (vis-a-vis rebuilding) - that's the only way I see him keeping his job. So, saying he's trying to win at the behest of development, cohesion, valuing assets, etc. all absent a plan or direction is patently false.

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#57 drdoogie16
November 20 2013, 10:04AM
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Just a couple of comments here - there is a lot of discussion on this site about Baertschi and how he's been handled by Hartley. Honestly, Sven is a terrible defensive player and since he's one dimensional at this point, if he's not producing points, why would he be playing. Doesn't kill penalties, not tough on the puck, doesn't intimidate anyone. Am I missing something here? He should be in and out of the lineup until his overall game improves. As for Backlund, this kid looks like he lost his best friend - no confidence as the coach won't give him a break - feel bad for him as every mistake he makes resulted in him being stapled to the bench unlike other players. Finally, regarding the face-punchers in the lineup. The fans on this site better get used to this because I know Brian Burke wants to have at least 5 guys in the lineup that can throw em and I only see 3-4 right now with Grats, Jackman, Bouma and O'Brien. Jackman will be dispatched and O'Brien is not a regular so I would expect more face-punchers to be brought in, not less moving forward. Like it or not that is what is going to happen here.

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#58 Southern_Point
November 20 2013, 10:57AM
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@drdoogie16

Whenever someone on this site complains about Sven Being benched it's not because we think he is the perfect player. It's that if Hartley is running the team as a Meritocracy like he says he is. Baertschi merits a spot over the likes of Jones, Colborne, McGrattan, Jackman, he was also better than Glencross to start the season, and he has been better than Monahan for large portions of the season as well.

From he outside there is no consistentcy between what Hartley says and what he does with Baertschi and Backlund.

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#59 BJ
November 20 2013, 11:06AM
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Someone please write an article about how bad Jones, Knight and Ortio are ripping it up in the A.

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#60 BJ
November 20 2013, 11:10AM
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And can we please move on from the Backlund thing... he played a couple games on the fourth line and colborne got a couple games with some better wingers... not that big of a deal...

As for Baertshi... Hartley does not dislike him. He sat him a couple games to focus him on video and workouts for a week. Not a big deal... way too much scrutiny this early in the year... this is an example of FN falling into the same trap as the mainstream media... inventing stories... The strength of FN is that it is an alternative to the mainstream media... please do not make a habit of this guys...

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#61 Jeff Lebowski
November 20 2013, 11:16AM
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McRib wrote:

"Cammy, Stajan, Stempniak all need to be pushed out in trades ideally. The return will not be NHL pieces. It has to come from within. Literally."

I think this is why Hartley is pushing Backlund & Baertschi so hard. He has been told by management and recognizes that once the vets start heading out the door (Cammy, Stajan, Butler, etc) these two are going to be playing top minutes. Frame of thought being they better learn how to play in the other two zones while they still can, as they will be relied on heavily in the near future.

For the record I hope we keep Lee Stempniak he has shown great leadership qualities with this club and believe his value is fairly underrated on the trading block. As crazy as it sounds at this point we might even get better value for Stajan then Stempniak, thanks to an eastern reputation with Toronto.

Yup. Exactly. You got it.

However, I disagree on Stempniak. He is playing great, no doubt. He is in contract year. For the Flames' short term and long term goals they need to leverage him for assets. Sell high if you will.

Stajan is incredibly impressive. Recall his whipping boy comments to his relative importance to the club. He pulled himself up by the bootstraps (and Hartley). I can only respect that. I think teams will value him highly deadline time. I could be wrong.

Hudler, Glencross, Gio, Wideman, Jones, Russell, Gali, Butler (yes Butler) should be the vets to play tough minutes until young guys start pushing through.

Strip away the narrative on Butler. He can play. The question is how much. Blunders are easy to remember. Every player makes them. I think Butler gets unfairly labelled as the new whipping boy. I'm seeing him try hard all the time. No question he has limitations but I tend to focus on his effort. How can you blame a guy for trying (unless he's trying too hard - forcing).

Those age range guys are best equipped mentally and physically until unseated.

Backlund, Monahan, Colborne, Knight.

Essentially you move guys out near peak (peak return) young guys push through. So when Gaudreau pushes Hudler out it's ok because Baertschi takes the burden. Everyone knows this.

I honestly believe that Knight is going to be the pivot that clicks with Sven. Sven - Knight - Gali

Anyone noticing how well Ferland is producing of late? Imagine what he and a Gaudreau could do for each other? Tantalizing.

Pie in the sky, I know. I'm an optimist. We'll see if I'm justified.

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#62 Burnward
November 20 2013, 11:37AM
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Re: Hartley vs. Sven/Mickis

As the season progresses, my thought process towards the handling of these two has changed. At first, I was confused...but now I think I get it. Maybe.

I'll start with Backlund because this one is easier for me to digest. He has shown us that he can be a solid possession driving center against comparable competition. However, I have found him to be inconsistent and at times...well, pretty soft. He thinks the game well but he needs a kick in the pants to take it to the next level or he will be expendable.

Anyone remember Seabrook's talk with Toews in the Finals last year? He basically said, "Great, you can play two-way hockey...but that's not the only reason why you're here. You need to get on the scoresheet."

To me, this is where Mickis is. If he's content with being a third-line center, so be it...but he's not quite there (to me) when it comes to matching up with the best in the West.

Moving forward, Monahan slots in as a top-six forward because he is that damn good. Mickis needs to find his place, because right now Stajan does that job better than him.

As for Sven, well, he has had to outplay some of the veterans on the wing. Cammi and Hudler are still ahead of him. And if healthy, so are GlenX and Ninja at this point.

I believe Sven will get his shot when we make a deal or two this season...but Mickis' future is still in flux.

He hasn't shown he is worthy of top-six minutes long term and if third/fourth line is his top end, then he just might be expendable. Don't get me wrong, I like his game. But if he tops out as a bottom-six guy...he is replaceable and I would be down for a package involving him and someone else to improve our top six moving forward.

That got long. Sorry bout that.

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#63 wot96
November 20 2013, 12:24PM
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@Jeff Lebowski

I really hope Ferland works out too. If he can keep up with Johnny Hockey and not just be a dancing bear, that would be an outstanding result.

Fortunately, I think he will get that chance. He is a Burke kind of player. Somebody else mentioned Burke liking guys who can fight and Ferland can chuck knuckles.

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