Flames Fan Ask - November 23, 2013

Justin Azevedo
November 23 2013 11:45AM

 

It's time for another round of Fan Ask. Go Dinos.

Q: If Backlund does get traded, to where and what kind of a return could we possibly see?

A: At this point, I'm thinking like St. Louis or Detroit would be the two teams most likely to be interested. The issue with trading Backlund - other than the fact that you're getting rid of your second best centre - is that you're not going to get anywhere near fair value in return for what he brings a team.

He out-possesses top-6 players. Theoretically, that makes him a top-6 player. The going return for that type of player is a 2nd or 1st round pick. I'll say at absolute best he'd bring back a second, but it would likely be something along the lines of a 3rd and a middling prospect. Not worth it. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure a Backlund trade is inevitable now, so resign yourself to the fact that they won't get fair value. I'm pretty sure this is the next move to go down. 

Q: What the hell happened to Janko?

A: Jankowski's current scoring struggles were talked about in the last edition of our NHLE updates, and what I said at the time is that he needed to increase his shots per game. If he was averaging 3 shots per, the scoring struggles wouldn't be an issue.

Unfortunately, he isn't really even close to that marker. Janko's now dropped back almost to where he was last season (~1.7 SH/G) and is only averaging ~1.9 SH/G. He's still shooting 30%, too. Because of his talent we might not see that drop below 15% but that still indicates he's been twice as lucky as he should've been. The assists - or lack there of - are starting to worry me as well. The NCAA is 1/4 of the way through their season too, and even though Jankowski is getting PP time and Providence has scored 44 goals, he still only has the one assist. I'm still willing to chalk that up to bad luck but if he can't get assists long-term it suggests he's just a peripheral player.

So, in short, nothing "happened" to Jankowski, but he isn't doing the things he needs to be doing right now.

Q: Chances Monahan goes to the WJC?

A: I can't see them releasing Monahan to the WJC. It's painfully obvious that the people around the team expect them to stay as competitive as possible. You're not going to send away one of your best-scoring forwards if that's the case. Plus, he'd likely have to go to orientation camp, which is even more time spent where he's not on the roster.

I would send him to the WJC for sure, but I'm not the one in charge.

Q: Why are fans of the Flames franchise so defensive of Face Punchers, or make excuses for them when they are visibly and quantifiably bad?

A: I don't think that the love for goons is simply a Calgary thing. The reason people love goons is because, at some primal level, most people enjoy bloodsport. The goods provide.

They're uniformly terrible at hockey, though, so I wouldn't want them on my team. I don't buy that there's a tangible impact on a game after a fight, but some do.

Q: Why is Sven sitting at all?

A: See the two above answers. Sven makes mistakes (because he's 21 and he's supposed to) but in the minds of the Flames brain trust a competitive team can't make those mistakes. He really should have just played all of these past two seasons in Abbotsford.

Q: I have been curious what is up with Sieloff. How is the development of guys down in Abby, like Granlund, going? Also, what you think is going to happen with all our college prospects this season?

Sieloff is still recovering from surgery on his broken face. There is an infection and he's out indefinitely until everything is completely clean and healed up. In terms of the guys in Abby, I update the prospects NHLE here every couple of days. Granlund is producing a lot of shots, which is good. Knight has been the best prospect in Abbotsford thus far. Reinhart's scoring will get up to a PPG at some point so that's really good too.

Arnold and Agostino are the two seniors we really have to worry about. Neither really have the cache needed to be guys that are lured away. In saying that, Arnold is scoring at a really good pace right now and I've considered him to be a guy with 3rd line potential for years - so hopefully that contract comes soon after BC is done for the year. Gilmour has had a really good start, too. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the rest of them went back for one more year, including Gaudreau. 

Q: @thefanblogger was saying that Baertschi is on the block and will be traded before Christmas. Who do you think he'll be traded to and for who?‎

If they trade him now, they're just as bad as the Oilers are. With that caveat in mind, any trade that doesn't have, at the very least, a first-round pick plus more coming back is simply a massive waste of an asset. I just can't think of a single compelling reason for the Flames to trade him - which means that of course he'll be moved. All of this is thanks to Burke.

Q: How much wood would a Klimchuk chuck if a Klimchuk could chuck wood?

A: Probably 16.

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Justin is a 23-year-old Flames fan who also happens to be pursuing a double major at the University of Calgary. He has played hockey at high levels, enjoys wearing shorts and tends to drink far too much Grasshopper. Please don't hate him.
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#51 coachedpotatoe
November 24 2013, 07:23AM
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Oops; one was supposed to be won and NC should read BC, way to early in the morning without a cup of coffee.

Who from the Flames will play during the Olympics; I suspect Hudler for sure, Berra a strong possibility, where does Sven fit in. I'm not sure anyone else gets an invite.

That two week break will probably be good for Monahan as it is often suggested that rookies struggle near the end of the season because of fatigue.

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#52 seve927
November 24 2013, 08:03AM
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Anyone know why neither Cundari or Wotherspoon have played the last couple of games for the Heat?

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#53 Kurt
November 24 2013, 08:06AM
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coachedpotatoe wrote:

Good to see Gilles back in net for Providence, they one again, NC lost but Johny G got a point. Heat win Ortio gets shut out, Granlund scores again. I'm wondering if all the chatter about either Backs or Sven is because both Knight and Granlund seem to be ahead of schedule.(Note i would not move either of them without getting fair value; Backs is 2-4 center who can play every shift, play PK and can drive possession and is more valuable than management seems to think, and it's tp early to give up on Sven) If this team is shopping around it seems what we need is a big strong defenceman who is about 25-27 years old or a skilled centerman.

Someone asked the question should the Flames allow Monahan to play at the WJHC, I would and here is my reasoning; while he is at the WJHC it would be a great time to see if Knight is NHL ready.

Here's a question. What happens when the Flames season ends and the Heat are in the playoffs, could Monahan play for the Heat?

One his teams CHL season is over Monahan is free to play in Abby. Regardless if he played NHL games or not. This is what if hoped they is with him along. CHL plus a cup of tea in the AHL, hopefully a deep playoff run.

That's what Edmonton did with Eberle (2 years in a row). One of the very few things I respect them for doing properly in their rebuild.

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#54 RexLibris
November 24 2013, 09:27AM
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@Baalzamon

I've always said the best plan is to create enough depth so that players can play at or even one spot below their actual ranking.

Backlund right now is about a 3rd line center. If your team were deep enough down the middle to use him as your 4th line C with some strong linemates (as opposed to fighters and checkers) you'd have a strong team. An Oiler comparable would be the Reasoner-Laraque pairing from years ago.

Yakupov and Ekman-Larsson are an interesting pair. The former is probably the more innately talented and still has a lot of development ahead of him. Ekman-Larsson is one of the top five defenders in the league right now. I'd make a one-for-one trade, or throw in another prospect to do that deal. I doubt Maloney does, though.

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#55 RexLibris
November 24 2013, 09:34AM
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@TRAV

Ha, just waiting to warm up before going back to shoveling more snow. Had some time to kill.

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#56 BurningSensation
November 24 2013, 09:46AM
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Walter White wrote:

Who exactly are you "Backlund for Abdelkader" haters expecting Detroit to give up for Backlund?? zetterberg, Datsyuk, Helm, Franzen??? Keep dreaming. Detroit does not give up high draft picks in trades, especially for a guy who can't crack the Flames lineup. So who are you expecting back from Detroit? Abdelkader is a young big forward who is off to a slow start. WW

There are two guys who I think Detrot would part with that are much better than Abdelkader;

- Tatar and Smith (though we would have to send them a Dman in the deal if it is for Smithl)

Tatar and Smith have been on the fringe for the Red Wings for the last two years, but havn't been able to take the next step (just like Backlund). Jarnkrok, Nyqvist or Anthony Mantha would all be nice, but would probably require us to spice up our offer.

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#57 Baalzamon
November 24 2013, 10:12AM
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@seve927

Cundari, I have no idea. Wotherspoon has been a scratch ever since Breen was sent down for his most recent conditioning stint IIRC.

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#58 EugeneV
November 24 2013, 10:27AM
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Kurt wrote:

"Backlund, Colburne, Knight, Reinhart all could potentially be great 2nd line centreman" - Yikes... ease off the koolaide!

And comparing Yakupov to Daigle? What does that even mean? I get we have prospect envy here, but common... I saw a graph on TSN the other day saying Yakupov's stats after 65 NHL games are comparable to Tavares, Nash, Stamkos & Lecavelier. I can't imagine where the Daigle dig comes from except Oiler hate. Which isn't a bad thing, but a bit silly.

But I do agree being are undervaluing Backlund (after grossly overvaluing last year). Keep him and see what happens.

Yeah but.... regarding Yakupov

Those guys were the first building block on their teams, and didn't have anyone to play with like Eberle, Hall and The Nuge.

Oh, except Stamkos who had Richards, Vinny and St Louis, which is probably not where Yak gets to but he may get close.

And if the Oilers want to get rid of him so bad they can have any 3 players on our current NHL roster except 23 or 7.

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#59 jonahgo
November 24 2013, 10:32AM
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if these rumors are true... why is this team looking to move good young players under team control? backlund is exactly the type of player they should be holding on to. he's already a legitimate nhl caliber player, and unlike the rest of the non-sveanahan forwards, he'll still be in his prime when the team is competitive again. he's the perfect player to bridge the gap between rebuild and competitiveness.

not to mention, if they trade him relatively soon, it'd be terrible asset management. they've tanked his value by sticking him on the fourth line and giving him tough minutes when he's not there. i don't see how they can expect to get good value by trading backlund at this point. at least pump up his value with offensive-zone starts, low quality of competition, and pp time, before trading him...

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#60 please cancel acct
November 24 2013, 11:36AM
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I doubt his value is as low as some have suggested. I'll bet there are GM'S out there who would place Back's on the "talented but need's a change of address" list.

Hartley's world is " Black and White". He has said as much in 2 interviews with the Herald. He believes that thinking that way is a benefit as a coach.

His treatment of Backlund supports that belief. I don't think that approach work's with young guys whose game is stuck in the gray area

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#61 Michael
November 24 2013, 12:13PM
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Bluntly, Backlund is NOT a top six forward, he has simply not shown over his 190 odd NHL games, anything like the goal scoring needed to rate that high. He is a defensive minded, possession driving third liner, who has adds value to the bottom six. For a defensive minded third line center he needs to improve in the face off circle. I wouldn't trade him, but you have to question whether Backlund himself is happy with the way he is being used, and whether we can resign him once his RFA status expires.

Janko, is beginning to fade into obscurity... he was a pick that the Flames simply couldn't afford to make.

Monahan, forget short term team needs, he needs to go the WJC to continue his development. We just need to look at Sven to see what happens when you take developmental short cuts. You get some short term gain in return for long term losses.

I wonder if the owners really have the stomach for this version of the Feaster rebuild. Things aren't off to a great start, the goal tending is sub par, the d corp is weak, development is questionable for Backlund, Sven and Monahan, and with vets like Cammy likely to be traded, things are only going to get worse. Feaster isn't the man for the job, and does not survive the season as GM.

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#62 please cancel acct
November 24 2013, 12:30PM
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Janko's potential is dwindling away.It sure would be nice to be talking about Olli Maata instead of Janko right now.

Intelluctual honesty required

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#63 Jeff In Lethbridge
November 24 2013, 12:43PM
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this team has way too many 22-26 year-old's for a good rebuild!

wait... never mind

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#64 TheoForever
November 24 2013, 12:47PM
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@Michael

Janko is not fading into obscurity, he his improving although perhaps not as fast as some would want, a project right. How Is Monahan development being jeopardized? Sending him to WJC is optional, it would be nice if he went, although not necessary for his continued development which is just fine. Benching of Sven and applying different measuring stick was a head scratcher, but the fact he is getting better and competing more in the last few games, so perhaps he is on track as well. We knew goaltending would suck. Having said so, there is Ortio and Gillies on horizon. Berra is showing flashes but has a way to go. If you going to go out and get a goaltender then after this season there will be lots of them around as free agents.

Defensive corps is what it should be at the start of a rebuild. Giordano return will help, Russell was a great addition, same goes for Smid. I got no problems with Wideman and Brodie is a good young player. We have several young Dmen that are promising. Top paring defensemen don't grow on trees.

If Flames didn't have problems they would not be rebuilding.

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#65 Jeff In Lethbridge
November 24 2013, 12:48PM
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@Michael

they arent off to a good start????

I disagree... I mean, yes, they are not batting 1000, but they've done exceptionally well at addressing the depth of this team and getting rid of a bunch of tired vets with little resale value and bad contracts.

Sure, they swung for the fence with Janko, but so what. Sure, many of us outsiders are perplexed over the treatment of Backlund and Sven. So what?

For your information many of us fans are happier with what we are watching on and off the ice then we have been in 4 years... yes they have laid a couple of eggs but they have also had many games where they gave it 110%, left it all on the ice, got off to a good start, etc etc :-)

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#66 SeanCharles
November 24 2013, 01:00PM
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please cancel acct wrote:

Janko's potential is dwindling away.It sure would be nice to be talking about Olli Maata instead of Janko right now.

Intelluctual honesty required

One day when Sieloff is delivering thunderous hits on the backend for the Flames you'll forget about Maata.

It was a 2 NHL prospects for 1 deal. When talking about it you have to consider Sieloff.

The Flames were so high on Sieloff they would have drafted him if Janko was taken.

Give the kids time to develop before you judge this deal.

At the 2012 draft it was clearly stated that the picks were about the long term future and not the immediate.

I know Hertl and Maata look good but give it some time before you judge.

Sieloff has had an infection and hasn't played. But when he finally gets back and establishes himself in the organization I think it will lighten the blow of Janko not being ready as early as many hoped.

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#67 RKD
November 24 2013, 01:02PM
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Dreger along with LeBrun and Bobby Mac are top insiders. If he said 4-5 teams are kicking the tires on Backlund and the Flames are ready to move him then there's a good chance it will happen. Trading Sven would be a mistake, look at what happened to Monahan when they started Baertschi. Sean started going cold, he has chemistry with Barts. You shouldn't trade away chemistry. I feel bad for Backs he's had some injury issues in the past and that's hindered some of his progress. Trading away a centre isn't a good idea when the organization doesn't have depth there anyways.

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#68 bilman
November 24 2013, 01:04PM
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If they in fact trade Backlund in the near future, I will be thoroughly disgusted in this team. Talk about bad "asset management". This would remind me a little bit of the Marc Savard fiasco (albeit to a much lesser extent) - allow the coach to completely diminish the value of the player, then trade him. If Backlund is to be traded, then at least give him a chance to improve his offensive numbers (ie powerplay time and top 2 line time) before you do.

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#69 piscera.infada
November 24 2013, 01:37PM
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RKD wrote:

Dreger along with LeBrun and Bobby Mac are top insiders. If he said 4-5 teams are kicking the tires on Backlund and the Flames are ready to move him then there's a good chance it will happen. Trading Sven would be a mistake, look at what happened to Monahan when they started Baertschi. Sean started going cold, he has chemistry with Barts. You shouldn't trade away chemistry. I feel bad for Backs he's had some injury issues in the past and that's hindered some of his progress. Trading away a centre isn't a good idea when the organization doesn't have depth there anyways.

If you think Backlund is a #1 or #2 centre, then yes, trading him away is a bad call because we don't have depth there. I don't think he is a top-six centre, as such you're trading away a #3 or #4 centre - something that this team actually does have depth at, in terms of prospects who are ready to make the jump very soon or have made the jump (ie: Knight, Colborne, etc.), and guys on the way (ie: Arnold, Granlund (although some might say his ceiling is higher - which would be great), etc.). Therefore, I'll say again, if he doesn't fit in to what the "plan" is, then you have to trade him.

Not that I want him traded, I just don't see it being as brutal an idea as a lot of people seem to suggest. Trade Backlund, bring up Knight - see what he can do.

And for all the talk of "bad asset management" - which is ludicrous, because we have no idea what the asking price even is - I'm not sure you understand that this team has a finite number of spots open to develop young players. You can't just keep claiming "bring up the young guys, give them a shot", when there aren't any spots for them to play in.

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#70 please cancel acct
November 24 2013, 02:00PM
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SeanCharles wrote:

One day when Sieloff is delivering thunderous hits on the backend for the Flames you'll forget about Maata.

It was a 2 NHL prospects for 1 deal. When talking about it you have to consider Sieloff.

The Flames were so high on Sieloff they would have drafted him if Janko was taken.

Give the kids time to develop before you judge this deal.

At the 2012 draft it was clearly stated that the picks were about the long term future and not the immediate.

I know Hertl and Maata look good but give it some time before you judge.

Sieloff has had an infection and hasn't played. But when he finally gets back and establishes himself in the organization I think it will lighten the blow of Janko not being ready as early as many hoped.

They could have taken Matta with the 21 pick and still had Seiloff.

I actually didn't mind them taking a swing at Janko,and yea, he may still be valuable down the road,but another part of me feel's you should take the best player when drafting on a rebuild.

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#71 jonahgo
November 24 2013, 02:04PM
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@piscera.infada

"And for all the talk of "bad asset management" - which is ludicrous, because we have no idea what the asking price even is - I'm not sure you understand that this team has a finite number of spots open to develop young players."

the point is that backlund's value right now is low relative to what it was last season and at the start of the season. the team can affect his value by putting him in a position to succeed, to score more, to demonstrate that he can hold his own in a top-6 role. based on the way they are currently deploying him, they are demonstrating that they do not value him highly. this should affect the types of offers they will receive.

teams are likely trying to trade for backlund right now precisely because there appears to be a major disconnect between how the flames view backlund's value as a hockey player and what that value actually is.

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#72 Primo
November 24 2013, 02:39PM
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please cancel acct wrote:

Janko's potential is dwindling away.It sure would be nice to be talking about Olli Maata instead of Janko right now.

Intelluctual honesty required

I would not hire you as my GM...giving up on a 20 year old for no apparent reason. I admire your patience and ability to manage player development of young players....Intellectual Honesty!

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#73 RexLibris
November 24 2013, 02:42PM
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So let me pose a question to Flames fans here: Assuming that Backlund is traded, which package would you prefer -

a.) 2nd round draft pick in 2014 b.) an NHL player in a similar situation, limited ceiling but stagnant under current administration c.) veteran player with expiring contract who could be flipped for a pick or prospect at the deadline d.) double-down and move Backlund and another prospect or 2nd round pick for a player in the range of a decent 2nd or very good 3rd line center or 2nd pairing defenseman.

I'm not saying that these are the only options that are out there right now, but if they were, which direction would you rather see the team move towards?

Best case scenario, in my mind, would be option #2 if Burke somehow was able to pull another rabbit out of his hat and trade Backlund (and probably a draft pick) for Brayden Schenn.

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#74 piscera.infada
November 24 2013, 03:03PM
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@RexLibris

Best case scenario, in my mind, would be option #2 if Burke somehow was able to pull another rabbit out of his hat and trade Backlund (and probably a draft pick) for Brayden Schenn.

That's actually been something I've been thinking could happen. Apparently both Schenn's are on the block. So maybe you say B. Schenn & and eat L. Schenn contract for Backlund and a Second. It alleviates a little over 3 million for Philly, and we can play L. Schenn this year, and buy him out if necessary. The only drawback I can see is, B. Schenn is a leftwing, IIRC. So there's that. But, you likely re-coup the second round pick in a later trade (ie: Cammy), thus not a huge deal - if you felt it necessary maybe you ask Philly for a 3rd or 4th as compensation for the 2nd.

A little pie in the sky sure, but I dunno, just spit-ballling. Not that I think this deal get's done, but I think if the Flames are going to trade Backlund, that's the kind of thing you're going to see. They're not going to trade him straight-up for a pick.

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#75 redricardo
November 24 2013, 03:07PM
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@RexLibris

By far B. Brayden Schenn would be awesome.

As I said in my previous post, the leaugue is littered with young players that were either given up on or misused by the previous team. If he is traded, Backlund will be one of those too.

Getting one back is best case scenario. Asset for asset. If we're selling low, find someone else who's selling low.

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#76 loudogYYC
November 24 2013, 03:07PM
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@please cancel acct

Jankowski was labelled a project from day 1, I don't see how that kind of label can change in a matter of 17 months. If he ends up surprising and starts developing at a faster pace, then awesome but personally, I'm not concerned about Jankowski until his senior year in 2016.

I still think picking a "project player" in the 1st round is a bad idea, but it's done now so whatever, let the kid develop.

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#77 Baalzamon
November 24 2013, 03:29PM
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@piscera.infada

Schenn is a center. He may be playing wing right now, but at worst the team could convert him to the right side and move Jones back to the middle. Or maybe call up Knight.

I don't know why the Flyers would move him, to be honest. He's second on the team in points.

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#78 loudogYYC
November 24 2013, 03:42PM
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@RexLibris

I'd prefer a package that included Sean Couturier coming to Calgary, but that's not likely.

I can see the B. Schenn scenario working, specially cause I think Philly would also like to dump some salary and that won't come cheap. I can see B. Schenn + L. Schenn for Backlund and 2015 5th. This would free up $3M for Philadelphia moving forward.

No matter what trade happens, I wouldn't move the 2014 2nd as it's gonna be awfully close to the 1st round this next draft. Flames will likely pick in the top 4 which would mean the 2nd is at least 33rd overall because of NJD forfeiting their 1st.

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#79 Jeff In Lethbridge
November 24 2013, 04:43PM
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EugeneV wrote:

Yeah but.... regarding Yakupov

Those guys were the first building block on their teams, and didn't have anyone to play with like Eberle, Hall and The Nuge.

Oh, except Stamkos who had Richards, Vinny and St Louis, which is probably not where Yak gets to but he may get close.

And if the Oilers want to get rid of him so bad they can have any 3 players on our current NHL roster except 23 or 7.

any 3???

just say no to crack!!! :-D:-D:-D

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#80 EugeneV
November 24 2013, 06:20PM
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Jeff In Lethbridge wrote:

any 3???

just say no to crack!!! :-D:-D:-D

As it says ANY 3 on the "NHL ROSTER" except 23 & 7

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#81 chillout
November 24 2013, 06:47PM
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@EugeneV

aaaaaannnnnd you're still on crack. let's just send giordano, glencross and cammi for piece of garbage no defense, no passing yak. you're brains must have melted out of your ears.

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#82 mattyc
November 24 2013, 07:40PM
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clyde wrote:

The Detroit brass isn't big on the Advanced Stats thing so I don't know if you want that.

They seem pretty into possession. Regardless, Babcock is an excellent coach.

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#83 piscera.infada
November 24 2013, 09:39PM
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Baalzamon wrote:

Schenn is a center. He may be playing wing right now, but at worst the team could convert him to the right side and move Jones back to the middle. Or maybe call up Knight.

I don't know why the Flyers would move him, to be honest. He's second on the team in points.

Totally agree, I don't know why either. It has however, been discussed. I can't remember whether it was Dreger, Le Brun, or Mackenzie that was saying that B. Schenn is on the table if there is a package to take some salary, and send back a young roster player.

...And thanks for the heads up on him being a centre. I remember him playing centre when he was in Junior, but I just kind of assumed it didn't work out, or whatever in the show.

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#84 Primo
November 24 2013, 09:46PM
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RexLibris wrote:

Backlund is a great possession player, stands out as a shutdown center and has a decent frame with enough skill to create some chances.

His point ceiling may not have been reached, but I'm not sure he is that far off.

He is not the 2nd coming of Mike Peca or, more recently, Jarret Stoll.

I think the Brodziak comparison is decent, although a more thorough search around the league may provide a better list of names.

Brodziak was traded by an organization just entering a rebuild and with a new GM who had zero loyalty to those players he inherited.

It was an incredibly short-sighted move.

Can you say that there isn't at least a chance that the Flames, given some similar circumstances, aren't vulnerable to making the same error? I didn't say they WOULD trade him for a 4th round pick, but rather that it had been done before and I couldn't see them trading him for less. Don't forget, these trades don't necessarily reflect perceived value. Smid was moved quietly, much as Phaneuf was, and both were later said to have been acquired for far less than "market value".

As to Yakupov, sure, let's discuss.

Daigle? No. Daigle had some problems from day one and the Senators were a dysfunctional organization (moreso even than the Oilers are said to be) who needed him to step in and be "the man". Not the case for Yakupov.

True, both play(ed) wing and both shoot (shot) left. Daigle had ridiculous numbers in junior and Yakupov broke Stamkos' records in Sarnia.

Temperament is very different, nationality and the pressures that brings are different, and the environments into which they are (were) introduced are markedly different.

Yakupov's trade value right now? He has value as a blue-chip offensive player on an ELC and with less KHL baggage than many Russian-born players of his caliber.

Darren Dreger said Reimer would be fair value - maybe. I think Dreger was wrong.

I believe, based on as objective an analysis as can be expected from a fan, that Nail will outperform Taylor Hall in points though influence the game less in terms of underlying statistics. He has a shot that, no word of a lie, could become as feared in our time as Al McInnins' was in his day. His passing is very underrated and he has a very strong sense of offensive soft spots and can dart to the scoring zones quickly and effectively.

This debate raged across the Oilogosphere a short while ago and one item that was more or less established was that a straight up trade of Yakupov for Couturier might improve the Oilers as a team, but in the end they would lose that trade by virtually every other metric.

If I were GM of the Flames I would be more willing to trade Baertschi than Backlund at this stage. My untouchables would be Brodie, Gillies and Monahan. Backlund doesn't rate, but he wouldn't be my first move. The Flames need to retain their core young players, but just as it is with the draft, who determines the player that has value is the real question.

Seriously, if I wanted to read a book I would go to the library!

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#85 RexLibris
November 24 2013, 09:49PM
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@Primo

Perhaps you ought to.

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#86 RexLibris
November 24 2013, 09:56PM
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@piscera.infada

Both Schenn's were 5th overall picks and one was recently had for a 2nd overall pick, so I'm not sure you get one for Backlund and a 2nd rounder.

I think even Holmgren would tell you you're crazy there.

That being said, targeting both might be something Burke would consider. If it meant moving both Backlund and Baertschi and getting a pick outside the 1st round in return as well as the Schenns perhaps the two sides could find something in the middle that worked.

Luke is a blueliner that hasn't lived up to expectations but is still young and often these players take a great deal of time to become something resembling what everyone believe they could be. Brayden has been playing wing but I think if they could move him to RW to complement the growing number of LW prospects they have.

I know some fans are going to hate the mere mention of moving both Backlund and Baertschi, but I only mention it because I'm lead to believe that Burke is orchestrating things to some extent and is not a big fan of either player.

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#87 RexLibris
November 24 2013, 10:08PM
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@loudogYYC

Couturier is Holmgren's ace card. He isn't trading that for a handful of 7s and 8s.

When the Yakupov to Philly rumours were flying the discussions were Yakupov and a 1st for Couturier and maybe, perhaps, Coburn.

I don't think Backlund gets you there. It'd be nice, but unless you've got something to slip in Holmgren's drink before the negotiations start...

Just to confirm, you are suggesting that both Schenns could be had for Backlund and a 5th round pick next year?

Actually, if the Flames were being aggressive they might be able to offer their 2nd round pick to the Devils in exchange for a young player or prospect. It reduces the development time for the Flames and provides a more tangible asset than a draft selection.

That or explore trading a supposed second 1st round pick in this year's draft from the presumed trade of Cammalleri for a prospect or player. Outside of Henrique, Schneider, Zajac, Elias, Larsson and Merrill, I'm not sure if anyone there is really unattainable at that price.

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#88 TheoForever
November 24 2013, 10:31PM
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Don't like a trade involving Baerrtschi period. Luke absolutely sucks. It would be nice to have his brother but don't like the price.

Trading Backlund at this time is sort of stupid in general. Never deal from position of weakness. In general I would let go of Backlund as he simply doesn't fit in long term. Not enough offensive upside for top 6 and not tough enough for the bottom 6. I would like to see him on the wing, he had success playing the wing during the lockout if I'm not mistaken.

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#89 loudogYYC
November 24 2013, 11:08PM
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@RexLibris

It's kinda what I'm suggesting I guess. A little lopsided for sure, but Philly's also in a really tight cap position for the next few years with B. Schenn and Gustafsson needing an extension/raise next summer and more holes to fill in the lineup.

Even if you balance that trade out, it can't be much more than both Brayden & Luke Schenn for Backlund + Butler + a 2015 5th. Cap space is king!

I like the idea of extracting a prospect out of the NJD system at next years draft, but I don't think the Devils are deep enough in any position at the prospect level. If anything, Pittsburgh may be without a pick in the top 60 next draft and they have a nice pool of D prospects that could be used to get into the 1st or 2nd.

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#90 the-wolf
November 25 2013, 07:37AM
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I have to agree with the article and I've posted the same a couple of times previously.

Backlund is worth more to the team than he is as a trade asset. I just can't see equal value coming back.

As for his potential, he's a 3rd line center as far as offense goes, I agree, but he has enough offensive smarts that along with his ability to drive possession, he could be a very useful 2nd line center if playing between 2 skilled wingers. The defensive conscience of the line, so to speak.

Moving Baertschi at this stage is stupid. Plain and simple. Hartley so obviously plays favorites it's sickening. People like to say, "you don't know what's going on in practices" and crap like that, but that's exactly what that is, 'crap.'

1) The person saying that doesn't know what goes on in practices either.

2) Baertschi was praised by Flames management for his work ethic and we were told glorious stories of him riding the bike hard after games and practices, etc. Now suddenly that's changed?

Monahan and Colborne get all the time, linemates and circumstances to work through their struggles (as they should) while Backlund and Baertschi are nailed to the bench for every slight offence. It kills a player's ability to perform when you're constantly worried about being punished for the slightest error.

The Flames suck. The Flames should suck. They're in a rebuild. Fans who thought the Flames rebuild was going to put the Oilers rebuild to shame and that it would all be over in 2 seasons are deluded.

Develop the kids. That's done by playing them. Move Stajan to clear up the logjam at center. That means Colborne, Backlund and Monahan can all receive substantial ice time, you juggle their line status based on who's hot that night.

Harltey needs to realize he's not coaching a Cup cotnender here and ownership nees to realize the Flames are a sports franchsie, not an oil company.

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#91 clyde
November 25 2013, 07:50AM
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mattyc wrote:

They seem pretty into possession. Regardless, Babcock is an excellent coach.

They believe in keeping the puck for sure, they just don't worry about tracking it. He is a very god coach. We wouldn't be seeing our youth playing until he was sure they were ready too.

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#92 SoCalFlamesFan
November 25 2013, 09:07AM
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@the-wolf

2) Baertschi has been given more ice time the last few games. Even more than Colborne. I know, I hate it when facts get in the way of a good rant.

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#93 loudogYYC
November 25 2013, 10:43AM
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clyde wrote:

They believe in keeping the puck for sure, they just don't worry about tracking it. He is a very god coach. We wouldn't be seeing our youth playing until he was sure they were ready too.

Who ever said the Red Wings don't pay attention to possession stats? That team is all about possession, I don't believe for one minute they're not versed in #fancystats.

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#94 the-wolf
November 25 2013, 10:59AM
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SoCalFlamesFan wrote:

2) Baertschi has been given more ice time the last few games. Even more than Colborne. I know, I hate it when facts get in the way of a good rant.

Yet I don't remember Colborne being benched or playing 4min/game either. Facts, indeed.

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#95 the-wolf
November 25 2013, 11:02AM
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@SoCalFlamesFan

It's the difference in how they're treated when they mistakes that I was so obviously getting at. I know, I hate it when a easily grasped point gets in the way of somone trying hard to be witty.

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#96 clyde
November 25 2013, 11:06AM
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loudogYYC wrote:

Who ever said the Red Wings don't pay attention to possession stats? That team is all about possession, I don't believe for one minute they're not versed in #fancystats.

One of their coaches said they don't when I asked him. I do believe him because he is a former teammate and friend. You can believe what you want though.

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