Flames Deadline Trade Targets

Kent Wilson
March 19 2013 11:18AM

 

 

Although we don't currently know if the Flames are going to be sellers or buyers at the deadline, we do know what the organizational needs are: younger guys, quality prospects, possession forwards (particularly centers) and draft picks. And future stars, of course.

Whether buy or sell, "go for it" or "burn it down", the club should be targeting worthwhile targets in the above categories as much as possible given organizational needs. Naturally, it's more likely the team will be selling but that certainly doesn't mean they can't be looking at NHL ready bodies coming back in some of their deals, on top of futures.

With that in mind, here's some guys I'd like to see the Flames asking about come April 3:

Michael Frolik - CHI - RW

I've been banging the drum for Frolik for a few years. He's one of those players whose SH% has cratered for whatever reason after scoring 21 goals per season as a rookie and sophomore in Florida. As a Blackhawk Frolik has scored just 9 goals on 266 shots for a personal shooting percentage of just 3.3% (!!), which is about what you could expect someone like Cory Sarich to average over his career -  so either Frolik has been grossly unlucky over the last couple seasons or he has a worse shot than a defensive-minded blueliner. 

The lack of production has seen him drift to the bottom of the rotation in Chicago, which is fair given their other options. The reason Frolik is of interest isn't just because he's a "buy low" candidate, but because his possession rates are consistently top-notch. This year, for example, he is third amongst regular Chicago forwards in terms of corsi (+16.53/60) despite the second lowest zone start ratio on the club. 

Frolik may never recover his scoring tough, although I'd be stunned if his SH% stays in the toilet forever. Even without the scoring he's a useful middle-tier forward thanks to his ability to push the play in the right direction. His lackluster point totals means he could be had (and kept) for cheap and he's only 25 years old.

Sean Couturier - C - PHI

The 8th overall pick from the 2011 entry draft has been thrown into the deep end of the pool with weights tied to his ankles by the Flyers organization. Couturier is seeing "Malhotra-like" minutes in Philly this year with an offensive zone start ratio of just 36.6%. Those are circumstances that would bury even seasoned NHLers, but Courturier is sawing off possession (-0.58 corsi/60). Unfortunately for the kid his percentages stink, particularly his on-ice SV% of 86.4%, so his counting stats are ugly resulting in steadily declining ice time. Last night, for example, he played just 8:10 against the Tampa Bay Lightning - two minutes less than tough guy Zac Rinaldo.

Couturier is only 20 years old, a capable two way forward with high-end pedigree (he scored 96 points in just over 50 games in his draft year) and a guy who could significantly improve the Flames center depth both now and for the foreseeable future. Even with his current usage Courturier probably wouldn't come cheap, but it's possible the Flames could pry him out of Philly by dangling one of their own high-end vets.

Jake Gardiner - D - TOR

The #freegardiner story has been a big one the last week or so, with the young defenders agent famously  tweeting that message last Tuesday, suggesting the player might be available in the near future. The Leafs under Carlyle have made some bizarre decisions this year, elevating marginal replacement level guys like Korbin Holzer while pushing Gardiner - who held his own in the show as a rookie last year - to the periphery.

Gardiner is 22 and a former first round pick by the Ducks back in 2008. He has 31 points in just 43 AHL games this season and projects to be a capable top-4, two defender in the NHL. Aside from TJ Brodie, the Flames lack kids on the blueline who could contribute sooner rather than later, particularly at both ends of the ice.

The Leafs organization may still be high on Gardiner despite the recent kerfuffle with his representation, but it would be worth inquiring at the very least. Besides, Toronto owes Calgary a few lopsided trades in the Flames favor at this point...

Alex Burmistrov - C - WPG

Another kid getting the stink-eye from his current team is the Jets Alex Burmistrov. Despite the second best possession rate amongst forwards on Winnipeg this year, Burmistrov has been a healthy scratch since March 10. Burmistrov isn't big, isn't a high volume shooter and can tap dance with the puck sometimes, which can drive button-down coaches a little nuts, especially when the production isn't there to justify it, which is probably why he's found his way into the dog house.

This is Burmistrov's third season in the league even though he's only 21 years old. He's never really put up big numbers in the show, but then he was rushed out of junior by the Thrashers and has never really landed in a scoring role with the club. At this point he's finally finding his legs at the NHL level, but a lack of ice time and opportunity is sinking his stock in Winnipeg.

Burmistrov might be had relatively cheaply as a result.

Other Targets

Carl Hagelin - The 24 year old Swedish winger came out of nowhere to become a top-6 forward for the Rangers last year and this season he has continued to put up good surface stats and great underlying numbers. Hagelin is an established piece in New York at this point and would be hard to pry away from the Rangers. We know that Glen Sather can be somewhat mesmerized by big names and flashy resumes, though, so if the blueshirts are looking to add a big piece for a playoff push at the deadline, maybe Feaster could get Hagelin included as the main guy coming back.

Mikhail Grabovski - Recently signed to a 5-year deal worth $5.5M year, his ice time has nevertheless fallen to just 16:42/game under Randy Carlyle. Grabovski's stats line is unappealing this season in light of his pay check, but it's mostly due to circumstances: he faces some of the toughest opposition in the league and starts in the offensive zone just 36% of the time. He is also only getting less than 2 minutes of PP time per night.

Grabs has been the Leafs best possession driver/two-way center for years and can put up better than average offense when he isn't being deployed like Sammy Pahlsson. His age (29) and 5-year contract make him more of a long-term risk, but he'd instantly fill the Flames need for another quality, top-6 pivot.

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Former Nations Overlord. Current FN contributor and curmudgeon For questions, complaints, criticisms, etc contact Kent @ kent.wilson@gmail. Follow him on Twitter here.
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#51 SeanCharles
March 19 2013, 03:11PM
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Kevin R wrote:

Totally agree. I see us overvaluing some of our assets but ho0ly smokes this is sure undervaluing them. Sven & a 2014 1st for Coutts. WTF! Thats just ludicrous to almost trolling.

Ya and the worst thing is all signs point to that 2014 pick being top 15, unless something big happens before next year.

Also, the Chicago draft pick would be 25-30 overall...So our franchise player is worth Frolik and, for arguments sake 29th overall...

I agree we overvalue but these proposals, I dont even think Daryl would touch with a ten foot pole.

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#52 T&A4Flames
March 19 2013, 03:18PM
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danglesnipecelly wrote:

Iginla to Chicago for Frolik and a 1st MIGHT work?? For who, Chicago obviously. I don't even know what to say to that... If Feaster makes that trade I'll be checking my flaming torch and pitchfork at the airport while I wait for my flight to Cgy.

That comment has removed any credibility you had left as an Oilers fan on this site clearly with the only goal of knocking us down a notch at every opportunity and offering up the occasional back handed compliment.

I'm sure you're a nice man Rex but you sir have my kilt tilted something fierce!

I have to agree. Rex you comment from the perspective of an Oilers fan and Tambi is a GM that has proven to have much fear in trading anything of value for value. Iggy is a 11yr in a row 30+ goal scorer and a leader. Cammi is also a multiple top 6 30+ goal scorer. Both are on pace for 30 goal seasons again. Jbo is a legit, tough to find/aquire top pairing, big minute Dman. You may be right in your assummptions that a guy like Couts would be very difficult to aquire, but we do have vets that could get it done. It all depends on where Homer and the Flyers are at.

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#53 Kurt
March 19 2013, 03:21PM
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SeanCharles wrote:

Ya and the worst thing is all signs point to that 2014 pick being top 15, unless something big happens before next year.

Also, the Chicago draft pick would be 25-30 overall...So our franchise player is worth Frolik and, for arguments sake 29th overall...

I agree we overvalue but these proposals, I dont even think Daryl would touch with a ten foot pole.

I think we tend to greatly overvalue trade potential. We always have... Iggy was worth a LOT 2 years ago. But now? Jbo is probably the most valuable asset, and seeing the Perry/Getz contracts fly around, maybe his contract isn't so bad for a contender to build their D around.

But people slamming the realists and dreaming of trading for a stud, star, elite prospect are delusional. Sorry. Its not trolling, its reality.

To get Brayden Schenn out of LA (a 20 year old elite prospect) it took trading a 27 year old captain in Mike Richards. Richards was captain, consisten 65-80 pt guy, 27 years old, locked up long term, 2 way, all round player. We do not have anyone comparable to Mike Richards... Sort of puts into perspective.

When you go through a year of suck to get a lotto pick you do not give up on it unless the return is epic. We do not have any such epic trade value.

Look at what we gave up to get Iggy back in the day. We have no Joe to trade away.

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#54 Bruins
March 19 2013, 03:25PM
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At what point will the flames organization decide to be sellers. They need to get bigger.

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#55 T&A4Flames
March 19 2013, 03:26PM
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Kurt wrote:

I think we tend to greatly overvalue trade potential. We always have... Iggy was worth a LOT 2 years ago. But now? Jbo is probably the most valuable asset, and seeing the Perry/Getz contracts fly around, maybe his contract isn't so bad for a contender to build their D around.

But people slamming the realists and dreaming of trading for a stud, star, elite prospect are delusional. Sorry. Its not trolling, its reality.

To get Brayden Schenn out of LA (a 20 year old elite prospect) it took trading a 27 year old captain in Mike Richards. Richards was captain, consisten 65-80 pt guy, 27 years old, locked up long term, 2 way, all round player. We do not have anyone comparable to Mike Richards... Sort of puts into perspective.

When you go through a year of suck to get a lotto pick you do not give up on it unless the return is epic. We do not have any such epic trade value.

Look at what we gave up to get Iggy back in the day. We have no Joe to trade away.

Hate to rain on your parade but it wasn't a Schenn for Richards straight up trade. LAK had to give up a few pieces for Richards; a 1st and Ward as well I believe. That was 3 high end commodities for 1 player. I don't think we are asking for that much. 1 solid prospect and a 1st for a chance a the cup isn't much, especially for a team that also has redundant young assets they can part with.

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#56 SeanCharles
March 19 2013, 03:26PM
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Kurt wrote:

I think we tend to greatly overvalue trade potential. We always have... Iggy was worth a LOT 2 years ago. But now? Jbo is probably the most valuable asset, and seeing the Perry/Getz contracts fly around, maybe his contract isn't so bad for a contender to build their D around.

But people slamming the realists and dreaming of trading for a stud, star, elite prospect are delusional. Sorry. Its not trolling, its reality.

To get Brayden Schenn out of LA (a 20 year old elite prospect) it took trading a 27 year old captain in Mike Richards. Richards was captain, consisten 65-80 pt guy, 27 years old, locked up long term, 2 way, all round player. We do not have anyone comparable to Mike Richards... Sort of puts into perspective.

When you go through a year of suck to get a lotto pick you do not give up on it unless the return is epic. We do not have any such epic trade value.

Look at what we gave up to get Iggy back in the day. We have no Joe to trade away.

Thats all fine and dandy...

But dont claim being a realist and say Iginla is worth Frolik and a 25-30th overall pick.

And Sven is equal to Couturier and our 1st (when that first looks to be in the bottom half).

I'll give you some creedance but dont say your a realist and agree those values are accurate..

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#57 RossCreekNation
March 19 2013, 03:30PM
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Ahh... funny seeing some brethten OVERVALUING Flames players.

1. Iggy deal would be along the lines of Tyler Kennedy, D prospect (Morrow/Maatta/Pouliot) & a (late) 1st.

2. I can't see Couturier costing less than Baertschi & a 1st. Sure, Flames might get something else (2nd), but it would be the 4th best component of such deal.

3. J-Bo for Couturier? Pass to the left, homie. J-Bo & a 1st for Coututier (and something)? Maybe. You're not getting an elite 21 yo for a 30 yo D man with 1 yr left on his deal.

Gonna be some dissapointed Flames fans here soon.

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#58 SeanCharles
March 19 2013, 03:30PM
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T&A4Flames wrote:

Hate to rain on your parade but it wasn't a Schenn for Richards straight up trade. LAK had to give up a few pieces for Richards; a 1st and Ward as well I believe. That was 3 high end commodities for 1 player. I don't think we are asking for that much. 1 solid prospect and a 1st for a chance a the cup isn't much, especially for a team that also has redundant young assets they can part with.

It was Simmonds (not Ward) and Schenn and a 2nd rd pick...Simmonds has more points than Richards, and Schenn is a top talent, and we all know how valuble 2nd round picks are.

Bouwmeester for Couturier as a framework does not sound so far fetched...JBow is only 29 also

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#59 RossCreekNation
March 19 2013, 03:34PM
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T&A4Flames wrote:

Hate to rain on your parade but it wasn't a Schenn for Richards straight up trade. LAK had to give up a few pieces for Richards; a 1st and Ward as well I believe. That was 3 high end commodities for 1 player. I don't think we are asking for that much. 1 solid prospect and a 1st for a chance a the cup isn't much, especially for a team that also has redundant young assets they can part with.

Uh, Ward who? And there was no 1st.

It was Brayden Schenn, Wayne Simmonds & a 2nd for Mike Richards. We don't have a Mike Richards.

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#60 Kurt
March 19 2013, 03:37PM
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SeanCharles wrote:

Thats all fine and dandy...

But dont claim being a realist and say Iginla is worth Frolik and a 25-30th overall pick.

And Sven is equal to Couturier and our 1st (when that first looks to be in the bottom half).

I'll give you some creedance but dont say your a realist and agree those values are accurate..

I wasn't agreeing with Rex, I said his trade is probably more towards realistic than we like to think. I've heard Iggy for Couturier+ trade speculation on the radio. Its laughable.... Couts for Baertschi+ is realistic IMO, but I agree with you a 1st rounder is an overpay.

My point stands that I don't think you are getting Couturier out of Philly for any aging vet. I think it would take one of our prospects which defeats the purpose.

My main point is that most fans tend to keep dreaming up ways to shortcircuit the rebuild. To retool on the fly and steal amazing elite prospects from other teams without going through the pain of draft them ourselves. I just do not see it happening.... Sorry.

And about the Richards trade, they included Wayne Simmonds (a decent 3-4th line prospect) and a 2nd rounder. Yes its more than 1 for 1, but my point stands that the centerpiece of the trade was Brayden Schenn for Richards. We can throw in all the extra side bits we want, but if you don't have the centrepiece of a trade it won't happen. You can't take Schenn out of that trade and throw in a bunch more middling junk and think its comparable.

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#61 Kurt
March 19 2013, 03:38PM
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SeanCharles wrote:

It was Simmonds (not Ward) and Schenn and a 2nd rd pick...Simmonds has more points than Richards, and Schenn is a top talent, and we all know how valuble 2nd round picks are.

Bouwmeester for Couturier as a framework does not sound so far fetched...JBow is only 29 also

I agree, Jbo and Couturier as centrepieces of a deal with various bits sprinkled in on either side could possibly get done. Thats a realistic trade IMO.

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#62 SeanCharles
March 19 2013, 03:48PM
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Kurt wrote:

I wasn't agreeing with Rex, I said his trade is probably more towards realistic than we like to think. I've heard Iggy for Couturier+ trade speculation on the radio. Its laughable.... Couts for Baertschi+ is realistic IMO, but I agree with you a 1st rounder is an overpay.

My point stands that I don't think you are getting Couturier out of Philly for any aging vet. I think it would take one of our prospects which defeats the purpose.

My main point is that most fans tend to keep dreaming up ways to shortcircuit the rebuild. To retool on the fly and steal amazing elite prospects from other teams without going through the pain of draft them ourselves. I just do not see it happening.... Sorry.

And about the Richards trade, they included Wayne Simmonds (a decent 3-4th line prospect) and a 2nd rounder. Yes its more than 1 for 1, but my point stands that the centerpiece of the trade was Brayden Schenn for Richards. We can throw in all the extra side bits we want, but if you don't have the centrepiece of a trade it won't happen. You can't take Schenn out of that trade and throw in a bunch more middling junk and think its comparable.

I don't know how you can say Simmonds is a decent 3-4th line prospect?

Even back then I like Simmonds, he is a Glencross type player. He is/was not a 3/4th line prospect.

He was more a 2nd/3rd line prospect then, and looks like a solid top nine player now.

I'm not saying its all that matters cause I like Richards. But Schenn and Simmonds both have more points then him and you throw in a 2nd rd pick? Thats what a 27yr old elite 2nd line center got.

For arguments sake, Bouwmeester (Its obvious that Sutters system hindered his value for 3 yrs) is an elite top 2 dman who 29. And probably the only one currently available.

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#63 the-wolf
March 19 2013, 04:10PM
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Couturier is worth more than Baertschi. Easily. As for including our 1st? It really depends on how high it is. In other words, that would be a trade most likely done in the summer. Centres with the size and skill of Couturier are a very rare breed and Philly is not going to move him for JBo. If they were, I think that deal would be done already.

Iginla for Frolik and a 1st? That I disagree with. Iginla can bring back more.

@Kurt - that's why I listed prospects who aren't home runs, but still have high upside. Potential is there, but their exact futures are far more uncertain. Some may even turn out to be busts at the NHL level, but they're also close to stepping right into the NHL.

In that sense, the rebuild could be shortened. But for the most part I agree with you. Let me put it this way - I believe this is the LAST year a rebuild can be shortened.

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#64 T&A4Flames
March 19 2013, 04:25PM
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SeanCharles wrote:

It was Simmonds (not Ward) and Schenn and a 2nd rd pick...Simmonds has more points than Richards, and Schenn is a top talent, and we all know how valuble 2nd round picks are.

Bouwmeester for Couturier as a framework does not sound so far fetched...JBow is only 29 also

Thanks you all for correcting me. Right, Ward to WSH, Simmonds to PHI, got it. It was more about the point I was tryin to make than the players.

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#65 Baalzamon
March 19 2013, 04:26PM
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Philly didn't move Couturier or Schenn for Shea Weber. Why would they do it for any Flames player, even with how much they've struggled this year?

The Burmistrov idea is intriguing, but how many teams give up on 21 year-olds who have played 3 years?

What about something like Iginla for Frolik, Danault, and a 1st? Optically, Danault and the 1st are the main pieces and Frolik is just a warm body (but of course we know better). Don't know if Chicago gives up Danault AND a 1st though. Maybe a 2nd instead.

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#66 Double Dion
March 19 2013, 04:29PM
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@Kurt

Simmonds was NOT a decent 3rd-4th line prospect. He was an all-around physical, great skating power forward with upside. Not to mention he was only 21-22 (the same age as Schenn is now) at the time. For all intents and purposes Schenn is the center version of Simmonds.

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#67 shutout
March 19 2013, 04:32PM
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I think that you might have a better chance at getting Schenn than Couturier. Especially if you were to do something that brought back both Schenn's because Luke has a $4M price tag that too expensive for what he brings.

Bouwmeester, swap first round draft picks for Brayden and Luke Schenn. Offer to eat $1.6M of the cap hit from Bouwmeester to give the Flyers so flexibility next year when the cap is going to drop.

Iginla to Chicago for Frolik and the 2013 first round pick would need to include a prospect like McNeil who will never be a first line center but has size and will probably slot in on the third line with second line upside.

Gardiner is available in Toronto but it is going to take a type of player that the Leafs are in need of and that would be somebody like Glencross, who I do not think would want to waive his NMC to go there since he took a discount to stay here. I dont see anybody else on our roster than gets you a prospect like Gardiner.

There is no way that Pittsburgh moves Despres or Bennett. These are two young players that can already fill offensive style roles on their team and the margin of difference between them and what Iginla would bring would be fairly small. A deal for Iginla will only include a roster player if the player is a inconsequential third line player, in which case it would be better for the Flames to take two prospects and the first round pick instead of a player, prospect, and pick.

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#68 Smokey
March 19 2013, 04:34PM
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The only thing enticing to land SC outta Philly, or Gardiner is the Flames first pick in June. I don't see Philly doing it unless they soured on Sean.

Frolik, Grabbo are the only real returns you have mentioned. Burmistrov is mired in Noel's doghouse when his underlying numbers are excellent. Must of slept with Noel's wife or mom or both to get the gross indignity of sitting when his play don't warrant it. I don't see the Rouskie leaving the land of flooding and mosquitos anytime soon.

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#69 Smokey
March 19 2013, 04:42PM
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Kurt wrote:

I agree, Jbo and Couturier as centrepieces of a deal with various bits sprinkled in on either side could possibly get done. Thats a realistic trade IMO.

Philly's not trading a future stud center for an overpaid 2-3 defensemen. Holmgren hangs up the phone without a word.

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#70 Dave
March 19 2013, 04:48PM
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I love all these conversations. But we all know that the flames are going to "Stay the course" anyways.

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#71 the-wolf
March 19 2013, 05:02PM
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Problem with the Flames is that they don't do anything. AT all. It's no rebuild and no parting with a big chunk of the future to go for it now. Like not going after Carter last year. Just band-aid with UFAs in the summer that you have to overpay for and keep spinning the wheel.

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#72 Kurt
March 19 2013, 05:05PM
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Smokey wrote:

Philly's not trading a future stud center for an overpaid 2-3 defensemen. Holmgren hangs up the phone without a word.

If JBo has no trade value we are screwed. I have both Oiler and Nucks friends. The only player on our team they ever talk about wanting is JBo. Thats it. I realize buddies aren't other NHL teams or scouts or even smart at all (my buddies are idiots actually).

But my point is that we have this negative vibe about JBo and don't realize how much other teams would like him. Ironically we think our 87 year old vets and a guy like Glencross are hot commodities. Glencross would be a depth add on a contender. But not a top 6 legit fwd. We have no options so we overplay guys like that, and in turn as fans we think our players are so valuable. He surely wouldn't get you Gardiner. Not even a sniff of a chance to even be considered. Forget hanging up the phone, Toronto wouldn't even answer the phone if we offered Glencross for Gardiner.

I just find it ironic that fans think our players are so valuable in trades except JBo when the truth it probably the exact opposite.

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#73 suba steve
March 19 2013, 05:17PM
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Smokey wrote:

Philly's not trading a future stud center for an overpaid 2-3 defensemen. Holmgren hangs up the phone without a word.

Can that trade happen, I'm sure I don't know. However, JBo is no #3 D-man, especially this year under Hartley. Claiming that he is only discredits your opinion.

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#74 the-wolf
March 19 2013, 05:18PM
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Kurt wrote:

If JBo has no trade value we are screwed. I have both Oiler and Nucks friends. The only player on our team they ever talk about wanting is JBo. Thats it. I realize buddies aren't other NHL teams or scouts or even smart at all (my buddies are idiots actually).

But my point is that we have this negative vibe about JBo and don't realize how much other teams would like him. Ironically we think our 87 year old vets and a guy like Glencross are hot commodities. Glencross would be a depth add on a contender. But not a top 6 legit fwd. We have no options so we overplay guys like that, and in turn as fans we think our players are so valuable. He surely wouldn't get you Gardiner. Not even a sniff of a chance to even be considered. Forget hanging up the phone, Toronto wouldn't even answer the phone if we offered Glencross for Gardiner.

I just find it ironic that fans think our players are so valuable in trades except JBo when the truth it probably the exact opposite.

I agree that JBo is probably our biggest asset and worth a lot. But I also don't think he gets you Couturier. Age difference, contract differnce, upside, center position - like I said, if Philly was willing to do that I thnik it'd be done. And if Feaster was offered that and didn't take it than he should be run out of town.

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#75 the-wolf
March 19 2013, 05:20PM
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suba steve wrote:

Can that trade happen, I'm sure I don't know. However, JBo is no #3 D-man, especially this year under Hartley. Claiming that he is only discredits your opinion.

#2 D - no better, no worse.

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#76 clYDE
March 19 2013, 05:26PM
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Kurt wrote:

If JBo has no trade value we are screwed. I have both Oiler and Nucks friends. The only player on our team they ever talk about wanting is JBo. Thats it. I realize buddies aren't other NHL teams or scouts or even smart at all (my buddies are idiots actually).

But my point is that we have this negative vibe about JBo and don't realize how much other teams would like him. Ironically we think our 87 year old vets and a guy like Glencross are hot commodities. Glencross would be a depth add on a contender. But not a top 6 legit fwd. We have no options so we overplay guys like that, and in turn as fans we think our players are so valuable. He surely wouldn't get you Gardiner. Not even a sniff of a chance to even be considered. Forget hanging up the phone, Toronto wouldn't even answer the phone if we offered Glencross for Gardiner.

I just find it ironic that fans think our players are so valuable in trades except JBo when the truth it probably the exact opposite.

Just hope Detroit plays well. They are offering a lot for JBo. Right now Feaster is asking for a lot more.

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#77 loudogYYC
March 19 2013, 05:36PM
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I agree that Jbo is probably the Flames best asset to dangle right now, and Couturier would be AWESOME to have, but let's not forget that Philly has like $75 in cap space. For that trade to happen Calgary has to take salary back, which means they're more likely to offer up Briere (NMC) than the young stud centreman.

Nobody is hurting more on D right now than Philly so you could probably fleece Holmgren in a deal but I'd say Couts is untouchable.

For a centre, I'd say Grabovski is the most likely for the Flames. Coach Carlyle pretty much hates him and his contract is starting to look terrible. He already sounds like a fit in Calgary!

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#78 Ed Ward
March 19 2013, 05:51PM
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the-wolf wrote:

#2 D - no better, no worse.

I think its pretty clear J-Bo is a #1 D-man. I'd struggle to name 30 NHL defenders better than him.

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#79 icedawg_42
March 19 2013, 05:54PM
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Ed Ward wrote:

I think its pretty clear J-Bo is a #1 D-man. I'd struggle to name 30 NHL defenders better than him.

I agree.

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#80 the-wolf
March 19 2013, 06:04PM
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icedawg_42 wrote:

I agree.

I hear you, but I'm thinking on 'ideal' terms. He just doesn't have the offense to justify being a true #1.

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#81 icedawg_42
March 19 2013, 06:22PM
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the-wolf wrote:

I hear you, but I'm thinking on 'ideal' terms. He just doesn't have the offense to justify being a true #1.

The past few years I'd agree wholeheartedly, but now I think i'll take a 'wait and see' on that. I truly am starting to believe that Butter's 'system' stifled him hugely.

I'm not saying I could see JBo get a uber high-end prospect, especially a-la Couturier, but I'm not so sure we're really 'overvaluing' him that much. His salary IS a factor though, and would likely lessen his trade value or moveability.

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#82 T&A4Flames
March 19 2013, 06:23PM
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Re: PHI, I think some are forgetting about the ownership. From what I've heard/read, Snider wants a cup now. He is getting older and wants to bring a cup to Philly sooner rather than later. I'm sure the mandate is to win now if a deal comes that makes them better now. IMO, Jbo as a 1st pair D is better than a young 3rd line C. We could probably sweeten the deal by helping out cap wise or in another way; depth etc. with their situation, I wouldn't discredit the value of cap space.

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#83 Chris Fairfield
March 19 2013, 06:29PM
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clYDE wrote:

Just hope Detroit plays well. They are offering a lot for JBo. Right now Feaster is asking for a lot more.

What is Detroit offering for J Bo? What is Feaster asking for in return?

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#84 Schmenkley
March 19 2013, 06:55PM
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How about Iggy to the Bruins for Camara and Kolkachev, and Jbo to the Leafs for Grabs and Gardiner? We get some size, physical play and skill back for Iggy, some skill and youth for Jbo?

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#85 Kevin R
March 19 2013, 07:05PM
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Blows me away we are debating this JBO thing. JBO is an established top pairing Dman on most teams. Tell me how many top pairing dmen are available on the market? How many are going to be UFA's? I know Couturier has lots of potential but he was a 2011 8th overall, not 1st over all, not top 3. What has done at the NHL level? Why is he so untouchable in Philly to be basically a #3 centre behind Schenn & Giroux? Talk his that his game really fell back this year. Call it what you want, but maybe there is still a development curve for this guy to work through before he actually becomes elite. I dont get the infatuation that he is that valuable. He's a top prospect on a centre deep team who is so desperate for a top pairing dman they did an outrageous offer sheet to a RFA that dwarfs the ROR offer sheet. I'm not saying JBO for SC but that sure sounds like a good basis for a solid hockey trade to me. Supply & demand guys, pretty simple economics.

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#86 Danglesnipecelly
March 19 2013, 07:12PM
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Kevin R wrote:

Blows me away we are debating this JBO thing. JBO is an established top pairing Dman on most teams. Tell me how many top pairing dmen are available on the market? How many are going to be UFA's? I know Couturier has lots of potential but he was a 2011 8th overall, not 1st over all, not top 3. What has done at the NHL level? Why is he so untouchable in Philly to be basically a #3 centre behind Schenn & Giroux? Talk his that his game really fell back this year. Call it what you want, but maybe there is still a development curve for this guy to work through before he actually becomes elite. I dont get the infatuation that he is that valuable. He's a top prospect on a centre deep team who is so desperate for a top pairing dman they did an outrageous offer sheet to a RFA that dwarfs the ROR offer sheet. I'm not saying JBO for SC but that sure sounds like a good basis for a solid hockey trade to me. Supply & demand guys, pretty simple economics.

AGREE!! ^^

Also did anyone else hear Bob Mckenzie mention not once but twice this evening during the intermission of the Habs/Sabres game that Vancouver was interested in Iggy or imply that if Iggy's has a list that Vancouver is on it?

Not only do they not have a single prospect I would want but if I saw Iginla in a Canucks jersey I would face butt my tv. Somebody please convince me that there's NO possible way that happens.

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#87 Chris Fairfield
March 19 2013, 08:01PM
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Danglesnipecelly wrote:

AGREE!! ^^

Also did anyone else hear Bob Mckenzie mention not once but twice this evening during the intermission of the Habs/Sabres game that Vancouver was interested in Iggy or imply that if Iggy's has a list that Vancouver is on it?

Not only do they not have a single prospect I would want but if I saw Iginla in a Canucks jersey I would face butt my tv. Somebody please convince me that there's NO possible way that happens.

For one, I don't think that he goes to a Western Conference team and if he does, he will go to Chicago or Anaheim. As has been mentioned many times, it is ultimately Iggy's decision. If it is to an Eastern team, (which I feel it will be) it will be Boston as the Penguins have a good balance now and are on the verge of winning their 10th straight, why mess with that. Iggy will not go to the Canucks as he still has that rivalry hate inside, and (with trade value set aside), he does not want to intentionally hurt the organization that he has been so loyal to.

I hope this helps, but if he does go to the Canucks, I too will face butt my television.

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#88 Smokey
March 19 2013, 08:40PM
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suba steve wrote:

Can that trade happen, I'm sure I don't know. However, JBo is no #3 D-man, especially this year under Hartley. Claiming that he is only discredits your opinion.

He's a 25 point a year defencemen. So he is barely a top pairing defencemen. He's a 4.5- 5 mil guy making 6.7. Watch him all day skate like a.deer, and convince yourself hes fantastic but he's really ok. He's like Jack Johnson or Luke Schenn, overvalued and overpaid. He can net you a first rounder and a prospect.

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#89 maimster
March 19 2013, 08:58PM
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When you watch Flames games with the visiting announcers (like I did last night against Dallas, for example), the announcers spent a ton of time talking about JBo, how valuable he is, how he's elite, etc. They don't get that information from scouting, they get that from talking to guys in their organization they cover - coaches, assistants, GMs. This is common with nearly every visitor's telecast I've seen, JBo is the guy that gets most of the discussion.

I take that as one more sign that he is highly respected by most teams and would be highly regarded if available for trade.

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#90 Baalzamon
March 19 2013, 09:21PM
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@Smokey

Comparing Bouwmeester to Johnson is like comparing a tiger shark to a goldfish. They're similar in an extremely broad sense, but as soon as you start looking at details, you realize one has teeth and the other is pretty and easily flushed.

And before you start complaining about overratedness and fan bias and stuff, that's not really praise for Bouwmeester so much as an insult to Johnson. Seriously, there's no comparison between them.

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#91 Bean-counting cowboy
March 19 2013, 09:34PM
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If Iggy goes to Vancouver he may not even make the playoffs. They are tanking hard right now. Need Kesler back in a big way.

I will also face butt my t.v..... and then puke a little.

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#92 schevvy
March 19 2013, 09:45PM
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If Iggy goes to the Canucks I will cry. He better not go there, it doesn't even make sense for the Flames, their prospect depth is worse than Calgary's. So no. Just no

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#93 clYDE
March 19 2013, 09:51PM
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Chris Fairfield wrote:

What is Detroit offering for J Bo? What is Feaster asking for in return?

Feaster is asking for a 1st, roster player and a top prospect. Apparently the stumbling block is the top prospect as well as the fact that the Flames want to wait and move Iggy first.

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#94 clYDE
March 19 2013, 09:52PM
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maimster wrote:

When you watch Flames games with the visiting announcers (like I did last night against Dallas, for example), the announcers spent a ton of time talking about JBo, how valuable he is, how he's elite, etc. They don't get that information from scouting, they get that from talking to guys in their organization they cover - coaches, assistants, GMs. This is common with nearly every visitor's telecast I've seen, JBo is the guy that gets most of the discussion.

I take that as one more sign that he is highly respected by most teams and would be highly regarded if available for trade.

He is the most highly sought after def at this time.

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#95 Um... Yea
March 19 2013, 09:53PM
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Smokey wrote:

He's a 25 point a year defencemen. So he is barely a top pairing defencemen. He's a 4.5- 5 mil guy making 6.7. Watch him all day skate like a.deer, and convince yourself hes fantastic but he's really ok. He's like Jack Johnson or Luke Schenn, overvalued and overpaid. He can net you a first rounder and a prospect.

You sir have prooved that you are an idiot in every sense. Go along now and play, maybe the kids on playground will give you some more great insight you can share with us.

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#96 RexLibris
March 19 2013, 10:30PM
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Okay. I. Am. Not. A. Troll.

Trust me on this. I have no desire to insult Flames fans or make them feel inferior (that's Ken King's job - ba-dum-ching!). Nor do I have any patience for those who troll on any site against any team. That includes fellow Oilers' fans who come to FN to talk trash.

And I take my Oilers' fan hat off when I post suggestions about Flames movements. I'll never tell fans here that they should just do what the Oilers did. Don't believe me, read the How-To-Rebuild series I did. It may not have been the best way to go about it, but it was an exercise in avoiding a burn-it-to-the-ground rebuild that many here feel represents the Oilers' way.

So here is where I'm coming from when I say that it would take Baertschi + to pique Holmgren's interest.

Holmgren has no urgent need to move Couturier. Kent is absolutely right to suggest targeting him based on the Flames needs. However, what do the Flames have that would interest Holmgren. If you say Iginla you are wrong. Bouwmeester? Not enough.

Iginla is a rental. The team that gets him gets him for, what, six weeks at best? Flames fans value Iginla based on what he has done. Past tense. I get that, but it means something between diddly and squat to the purchasing GM. He only cares what Iginla will do. Future tense, and a short-term future at that.

Bouwmeester is a terrific #2 defenseman. He is exemplary at taking the puck and moving it up ice efficiently. He is what many had hoped Ryan Whitney would become. He is not Ryan Suter, nor Shea Weber. Not Drew Doughty, nor Ekman-Larsson, nor Keith or Seabrook. He has one year left on a large contract and that limits the buyers. St. Louis is a great place for him to land, but if St. Louis is one of the only buyers, and Jay Feaster is interested in selling, ask yourself: how much leverage does Feaster really have there?

As Kurt has already noted, there is a strong tendency on comment boards to suggest that a team need simply acquire the young stud prospects of another team by way of trade. The details are murky and the suggestions almost always overvalue the assets of the home side. Sadly the nadir of the logic provided is usually summed up with the words "get 'er done".

Let's use the case of Iginla again. On nearly any team that has a really good chance of winning a Stanley Cup, their lines are so deep and talented that Iginla would likely be playing 2nd line, or in one or two cases even 3rd line, minutes. Not because he doesn't have talent, but because the talent that is ahead of him on that team is there for a reason. How much would any of those teams give up to add a 35 year old scoring winger who is going to slot in at a depth position? Would any Flames fan be happy if their GM emptied the cupboard for that player as a rental? I suspect not.

Now here is the part that will really offend you all, but it comes from a place of personal experience that I feel needs to be passed on. It was only after seeing what a talented team actually looked like that I realized just how bad things had gotten for the Oilers. I'd watch Chris Pronger play and say "oh, so that's how its supposed to be done". And afterwards it made all of the deficiencies in the roster that much more apparent. This is why outside observers are often so critical of struggling teams: because they can see the best and the rest, and the contrast can be stark.

I've been watching the Flames games for a few seasons now and I've seen a recurring theme: things have to go just right for a win. The big guns have to fire, the goaltending needs to be solid, and the game plan played to a tee, in order to beat all but the worst teams in the league (yes, like the Oilers).

I've seen that before. When a team relies on that many factors to go their way, they are living on borrowed time.

So then back to the trade proposals. If Philadelphia is loitering in the bottom of the standings, looking at acquiring a top prospect this draft, why on earth would they want to give away a future building block for one year of Bouwmeester? Couturier would garner a far bigger package from other teams if Holmgren were to ask around, especially if he becomes part of a larger roster changeover that would complement the addition of a Darnell Nurse or other such prospect.

The Flames don't have the assets to offer aside from Baertschi and a whole lot of enticing 1st round picks in the future. That is what other GMs will ask for, because they foresee a bleak future for the Flames and would gladly take a piece of the draft rewards. So, the options then become to either a.) trade futures for 20-somethings and risk giving up high draft picks or b.) stick it out and collect your very own group of 20-something prospects that other teams may come to covet.

The veteran angle is largely a non-starter, outside of a potential Iginla return or Bouwmeester move. In either case, I'd ballpark a Dustin Penner-esque return in a 1st round pick, a conditional depth pick, and a half-decent NHL prospect as reasonable.

Remember when the rumours flew that the Kings were offering Brayden Schenn and, perhaps, a 1st round pick for Iginla. Iginla was two years younger and had two more years on his contract. Why would he be worth more today?

Now, as has been mentioned earlier, let's revisit what it took to get Schenn (and Simmonds) out of L.A. It meant giving up Mike Richards. The Flames don't have a Mike Richards to offer up. Baertchi + is as close as you come.

For what it is worth, I think Flames fans would be better served if Iginla just re-signed and saved the city the trauma of seeing him leave. I'd love to see him do what Fleury ought to have; play every game of his career in that one jersey.

There, I had to go back to an old-school manifesto post to cover it all, but I hope I've explained my reasoning.

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#97 MC Hockey
March 19 2013, 11:24PM
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Kent hits the nail on the head with ideas like Frolik, Couturier (both I would love to get), and others like Hagelin and Grabovski (I would not want Grabo but far easier to get him so more likely to happen).

Not as sure about Burmistrov being a target, because a) doubt Jets give him up and b) not sure he is actually a Centre.

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#98 Baalzamon
March 19 2013, 11:33PM
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@RexLibris

I'm sorry Rex (and I'm not trashing you; I actually like you as an intelligent poster), but I find it rather quaint that you say "Bouwmeester isn't Oliver Ekman-Larsson" when, as recently as December, you thought the Oilers could get OEL (and Henrik Samuelsson) for Hemsky and Paajarvi (and a 1st rounder). As I recall, you took it rather hard when I suggested you were undervaluing Ekman-Larsson, and that you'd be lucky to get him (straight-up) for Yakupov and a 1st.

Fan bias gets us all, bro.

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#99 T&A4Flames
March 19 2013, 11:47PM
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@RexLibris

Rex, in all of this you missed a lot of stuff and I'm sorry, but it still screams of Oiler influence. It's not your fault, how can someone be expected to completely put their feelings for their team aside.

Their are so many variables that go into a trade it would be unlikely if not impossible to know them all. Re: Jbo, how can you say that St Lou may be the only team interested/able to land him that it limits leverage. There is always the retain some salary option that is part of the new CBA. Also, you are assuming that a team acquiring him would only have him for this and next year. He's only 29 and with his playing style, "soft" as some have described, he can be resigned and be effective for many years. And one can't discount the fact the current lot of "available" D men this year for trade and FA is mediocre at best. Add to this that Jbo is playing the best hockey he has played in CGY, under Hartley, tied for 3rd in defensive goals, he will be sought after by more than 1 team.

Re: Iggy. History shows that someone will always over pay for a potential impact player. When I say impact, I mean more than just being a 30 + goal scorer for 11 yrs running. He is close to that pace again this year as well. His hunger for a cup would likely invigorate the other players on the team as well; give them something to rally around. Their is also the angle that 1 team will find additional value in preventing a rival from acquiring his services. Iggy always comes into camp in better shape than most 20 something's so if a team wished to sign him longer, it reasonable to assume that he can contribute in a 2nd or 3rd line role. Iggy's best games this year was when Hartley sheltered him which would likely be a role he would fill on a "deep" team. I'm not saying Iggy will garner a kings ransom, but a top prospect and a 1st, likely to be a low 1st, isn't that unreasonable. I don't think anyone is expecting a Rick Nash type return at this stage of Iggy's career/contract status.

Last thing, to compare Penner, mister pancakes himself, to Iggy or Jbo is just ridiculous. Penner consistently proved he was nothing more than inconsistent. He was great... When he wanted to. Otherwise, he was, and remains, just a big body that very difficult to motivate. That and he is a winger. 1st pairing D men are a lot more difficult to acquire.

No harm meant, I was just offering a counter view.

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#100 Sobueno
March 19 2013, 11:55PM
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The first paragraph of this article is rather depressing, with this little sentence in particular in regards to what we need: "younger guys, quality prospects, possession forwards (particularly centers) and draft picks. And future stars, of course."... aka everything except maybe immediate defensive help. Which, if the game plan goes according to how many of us hope, will shortly be depleted. i.e. the future does not look very bright.

Not that this is all a revelation by any means, but seeing the long list of what we need just reminds me of our sad state.

And in general, I agree that it's likely not very feasible/realistic that we will be able to poach much in the way of high end prospects from other teams for our one or two useful vets. However, supply and demand definitely plays a role, and if the market is just right we could end up getting a steal of a deal (I'm thinking JBo on this one, seems like several teams are high on the demand side, with not many top 2 D's on the market). I also think all of the prospects listed here have the potential for being overlooked and undervalued by their respective clubs, thus making some of the proposals to acquire them more realistic if this is true.

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