Kipper Staying in Calgary Highlights Flames Failures

Kent Wilson
April 03 2013 10:05AM

 

Kiprusoff

pic via Cats Five

TSN reporting this morning that Kiprusoff has opted to remain in calgary for the rest of the season and will likely retire in the off-season.

It's a disappointing end to the Kipper saga, even if we assume the return from Toronto was going to be marginal. When I was penning "trade Kipper" articles in the past, this was my ultimate fear - that the team would hang on until the asset was drained of all value. I'm not going to begrudge Kiprusoff this final stand, but it's astonishing how completely the Flames former cornerstones have crumbled with almost nothing to show for it. Right now, the best return for a former core player (aside from a couple of first round picks) is...Lee Stempniak.

Since 2010, the Calgary organization has shed Dion Phaneuf, Robyn Regher, Daymond Langkow, Jarome Iginla, Jay Bouwmeester and (soon) Miikka Kiprusoff and all they have to show for that collection of formerly high priced, high-valued players is a collection of middling prospects, the aforementioned picks, Lee Stempniak, Chris Butler and Matt Stajan. What a disaster.

The Flames inability to draft and groom their own players internally is a big reason they stand on the percipience of the abyss currently, but make no mistake - the club's almost total failure to appropriately leverage their high-end pieces is another big issue.

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Former Nations Overlord. Current Fn contributor and curmudgeon For questions, complaints, criticisms, etc contact Kent @ kent.wilson@gmail. Follow him on Twitter here.
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#51 Victoria Flames Fan
April 03 2013, 12:10PM
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Kent, Do you have any idea what role Ken King has played in any of this? What is the relationship between the President, the GM and the team's well documented failures?

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#52 the-wolf
April 03 2013, 12:18PM
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Scott Lemieux wrote:

The state of the organization is tied to both regimes. Sutter screwed up the Phaneuf trade and drafting stunk in his epoch, but Feaster came in and opted to run Iginla, Kipper into the ground, moved Regehr for not all that much and recently rushed to trade Bouwmeester when he had a lot more time and leverage to maximize the return.

Agreed with this with one exception. As I've said before I don't think that the Bouwmeester return was unreasonable, and doubt that more was available. Top prospects aren't being moved for anyone right now, let alone extremely expensive good but non-elite players. Before the season, just dumping his contract would have been a miracle, and while maybe he could have gotten more on draft day what if he played badly down the stretch or got hurt? A first rounder in a deep draft was a reasonable return.

But, otherwise, you're spot on. Whether they got a fourth-rounder for Kiprusoff or not doesn't really matter, but the mistake was not trading him when he had real value and it was clear the team wasn't going anywhere. And you're also right that while the worst errors were made by Sutter Feaster went along with a bad strategy and executed in poorly.

Except that the pcik is conditional and the Blues are in 8th. A couple of injuries and we're picking in 2014.

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#53 the-wolf
April 03 2013, 12:20PM
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Scary Gary wrote:

This probably had as much to do with the economy in Calgary than it did Ken King.

Certainly, but do you remember Ron Bremner?

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#54 Michael
April 03 2013, 12:22PM
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Scary Gary wrote:

This probably had as much to do with the economy in Calgary than it did Ken King.

King can claim the credit, but it is really the exchange rate dropping from $1.50 ish to par. Thats a huge impact when you have Cdn revenue and US salaries...

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#55 McRib
April 03 2013, 12:30PM
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@BurningSensation

WOW, Hockey's Future has Adam Erne ridiculously low!! Its going to be tough to even get him with our second pick he is a Top. 15 on every other ranking. Ditto for Max Domi. Curtis Lazar is also very high.... Some lists have him as low as 27th.

They are in LOVE with Russians, if you think the Flames are drafting a Russian in the first round you are sorely mistaken. This is actually the worst ranking I have seen, period. Its not 1999, they have way too many europeans ranked.

First Pick: Seth Jones, Aleksander Barkov, Jonathan Drouin, Nathan MacKinnon

Second Pick: Adam Erne, Josh Morrissey, Ryan Pulock, Kerby Rychel and Bo Horvat

Third Pick: Curtis Lazar, Madison Bowey, Nic Petan, JT Compher and Ian McCoshen (If we didn't give away our Second to Montreal for all intensive purposes we would have four first rounder’s)

My Ideal Return: Aleksander Barkov, Adam Erne and Madison Bowey. I would walk away with two forwards and a defense.

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#56 sthenrioilbomb
April 03 2013, 12:34PM
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FauxRumors wrote:

I say the Flames do 1 of 2 things with Kipper...

1. SIT THE BUM...let him ride the pine the rest of the year...maybe even HEALTHY SCRATCH him the rest of the year.

Or...even better...

2. Put him on Waivers...when no one claims him assign him to Abbotsford...when he doesn't report...SUSPEND HIM!

GOOD RIDDANCE...nice loyalty to the team that grabbed you off the scrap heap in San Jose and gave you a career. Good to see you win ZILCH in Calgary. GOOD RIDDANCE! #CLASSLESS #OVERRATED

woah!?! Kipper's family is not healthy. He made a decision most of us would have made. He's been a solid competitor his whole career in Calgary. At least give him that credit.

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#57 the-wolf
April 03 2013, 12:40PM
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Scott Lemieux wrote:

Except that the pick is conditional and the Blues are in 8th. A couple of injuries and we're picking in 2014.

1)Well, the Blues have to be considered heavy favorites to make the playoffs as of now.

2)The worst-case scenario -- a 2013 fourth rounder, a 2014 rounder, a couple of C prospects -- is still a lot more than he would have commanded before the season. It's entirely possible that on draft day less would have been available, and not plausible that there would be a lot more.

3)The argument kind of collapses on itself. If you're seriously worried about the Blues missing the playoffs, it's pretty much a concession that Bouwmeester isn't a high-impact player. (And I agree he's not; he's a nifty second pairing guy but nothing more than that on a good team. The Blues obviously could miss the playoffs with him.) So why do you think that teams will be lining up to empty their farm systems to take him on at a $6.7 M cap hit next year?

Me, I'd take the money and run. You're not going to get much more and you could wind up with a lot less.

2nd pairing? Can't agree with that at all. He's a legit #2D on the top pairing on probably 20+ teams. He's the best D-man on several teams (including Calgary).

I beleive in JBo. I said injuries. Look at the Pens suddenly.

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#58 the forgotten man
April 03 2013, 12:42PM
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Have we reacquired Olli yet??

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#59 Bean-counting cowboy
April 03 2013, 12:44PM
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Ottawa gets Conacher. Murray is a brilliant GM.

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#60 Kevin R
April 03 2013, 12:48PM
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Bean-counting cowboy wrote:

Ottawa gets Conacher. Murray is a brilliant GM.

But he gave up a covetted young goalie performing very very well. Conacher + a 4th for Bishop.

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#61 Scott Lemieux
April 03 2013, 12:57PM
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@the-wolf

2nd pairing? Can't agree with that at all. He's a legit #2D on the top pairing on probably 20+ teams. He's the best D-man on several teams (including Calgary).

That's fair. If your #1 guy is a RH shot, he could be a top-pairing guy in a quality team, no question. You're also right that he was the best defenseman on the Flames, but this is the problem -- while he's a good player it's pretty clear at this point that if he's your best defenseman you're screwed.

When you're talking about a non-elite player with an elite salary, that's never an easy asset to trade. Maybe Feaster could have gotten a little more by holding out, but it's a pretty big risk. The Flames have done a lot of really dumb things, but I think this is one they handled pretty well.

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#62 RexLibris
April 03 2013, 01:01PM
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I find fan narratives very interesting.

One that I see emerging in contention with past comments is that fans do not want the Flames to proceed with an Oilers-style nuclear rebuild.

That ship has sailed and the Flames are undergoing a greater (by degrees of impact player) change than that which the Oilers underwent in 2009-2010.

Another interesting trend seems to be some resentment towards Kiprusoff. If this were the last year of his contract, after which he were retiring, would some fans still be angry at him for not accepting a trade?

Were I a Flames fan, my only regret for him would be that he is leaving the game at a low ebb, rather than at his peak. Let him walk away with dignity and celebrate him for his efforts and accomplishments.

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#63 RexLibris
April 03 2013, 01:02PM
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Philadelphia gets Steve Mason? Because Bryzgalov wasn't enough of a circus?

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#64 RexLibris
April 03 2013, 01:08PM
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Gaborik to Columbus. Interesting move by Kekelainen. Not a big fan of the move, but time will tell.

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#65 FireOnIce
April 03 2013, 01:10PM
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RexLibris wrote:

Philadelphia gets Steve Mason? Because Bryzgalov wasn't enough of a circus?

Excuse me while I laugh my ass off. That's hilarious. Bryzgalov, pontificating on the size of the universe, and Mason, praying he's not a sieve night-in and night-out.

I've seen the assertion several times that Kipper's family "is not healthy". Does anybody ACTUALLY know that? The original Kypreos report just said that Kipper didn't want to move because of his family. That doesn't imply health issues, that implies a new father who is moving to Finland this summer and not Toronto. Let him take his ball and go home.

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#66 FireOnIce
April 03 2013, 01:10PM
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@RexLibris

Aaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Uuuuuaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

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#67 RexLibris
April 03 2013, 01:12PM
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@FireOnIce

If I were Mason I'd just retire rather than tend goal in Philly. No thank you, not interested in playing in front of those fans.

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#68 FireOnIce
April 03 2013, 01:12PM
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NYR get Dorsett, Brassard, and John Moore for Gaborik (if he waives).

Pominville to Wild.

No sightings of Olli Jokinen to Calgary... yet.

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#69 RexLibris
April 03 2013, 01:15PM
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I'm really ticked at Tambellini right now.

There are opportunities right now to gather together a few more picks for extraneous pieces and management is going to "stand pat" because they feel they have a shot at a playoff spot.

Ugh.

They could have acquired Jussi Jokinen for a conditional 7th round pick (presumably), instead they get Jerrod Smithson. Right.

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#70 the-wolf
April 03 2013, 01:15PM
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Bean-counting cowboy wrote:

Ottawa gets Conacher. Murray is a brilliant GM.

I like that trade both ways. TB really needed a goalie and I'm one of those who likes Bishop. And who else is out there? Luongo?

Murray is a great GM though, agreed.

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#71 RexLibris
April 03 2013, 01:16PM
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FireOnIce wrote:

NYR get Dorsett, Brassard, and John Moore for Gaborik (if he waives).

Pominville to Wild.

No sightings of Olli Jokinen to Calgary... yet.

Nah, I think Feaster would rather have Antropov.

;-)

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#72 FireOnIce
April 03 2013, 01:17PM
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RexLibris wrote:

I'm really ticked at Tambellini right now.

There are opportunities right now to gather together a few more picks for extraneous pieces and management is going to "stand pat" because they feel they have a shot at a playoff spot.

Ugh.

They could have acquired Jussi Jokinen for a conditional 7th round pick (presumably), instead they get Jerrod Smithson. Right.

Dunno why they didn't take Jokinen off waivers either. Half price for a year and change on a faceoff and shootout whiz isn't too shabby. And no one wanted Ryan Whitney?

If I was Marion Gaborik, I wouldn't waive my NMC/NTC to go to Columbus from New York. Unless they make him captain in CB.

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#73 Nick T
April 03 2013, 01:19PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

I guess I see things differently on a couple of points;

- The Regehr trade netted us not just assets, but rid us of one of the most toxic contracts in the league, and Regehr hasn't been worth all that much in any way since we let him go. It was the first step away from the Sutter regime IMO (a conclusion reinforced by the fact it is Sutter's team that just took him on).

- I think the 'rush' on dealing JBo is totally justified. If we don't deal him now then the pressure of making the playoffs and doing well is alleviated, and every GM's primary concern becomes 'how do I get under the new cap'. Waiting to trade JBo would have seen his value decrease, rather than increase (I note here that he has garnered arguably the best return of any trade made near the deadline, with the chief competition for top spot being what Iginla brought in)

- I don't think Feaster opted to 'run Iginla and Kipper into the ground', I think that was ownerships call. I have said before that I thought Feaster was engaging in a slow-motion rebuild. Getting rid of bad contracts (Kotalik, Regehr, etc.), being more judicial with picks (he has used more 2nd rounders than Sutter did in his entire time here), and generally trying to clean up the mess that Sutter left in his wake - while at the same time trying to satsify ownership's desire to not do a full-scale meltdown.

I'd also argue that but for some bad luck (injuries mostly), he almost made it work.

- In terms of Feaster's priorities, I think he has them exactly right (where I thought Sutter had them exactly wrong). The Flames talent pipeline HAD TO BE FIXED for any long term success to ever happen. The 'rebuild' that everyone called for would go nowhere fast if the basic foundation of the team isn't solid (see: Edmonton - the high-end kids are fine, it's everywhere else that is in trouble). Sutter had obliterated the base of the team by jettisoning 2nd rnd picks in bad trades, and blowing his 1sts on 'farmer strong' kids who nevertheless couldn't skate. Feaster has completely retooled the system for talent aquisition - and it is from that base that any future success for the team is going to come.

Is Feaster totally blameless? No. I can't stand how he deals with the media, I have issues with the Wideman contract, and I'm still not sold on Hartley as coach (though I like him much more than Butter), but I think he has decided to turn into the skid and is getting the team back on track.

I think you are giving Feaster a bit too much credit in many areas but let's start with the draft. In the mid 1990 through 2002,s primarily Craig Button regime Calgary had a period of unprecendented high picks due to poor season results; 1996-7 5th 1997-8 5th 1998-9 8th 1999-0 6th 2000-1 11th 2001-2 9th

Sutter regime started with 1 high pick which yielded a very good player in Phaneuf and then due season successes resulted in 5 years of low draft positions. 2002-3 9th Phaneuf 2003-4 24th Prust-in 2nd,Boyd-3rd, Pardy 6th round. 2004-5 26th 2005-6 26th Irving 2006-7 24th Backlund,4th round Aulie,5th round Renaud-Windsor team captain and leader with upside-died tragically. 2007-8 25th 3rd round Bouma,4th round TJ Brodie playing 20+ minutes as a 22 yearold-college senior age. 2008-9 23rd Erixon 2009-10 no 1st or 2nd rounder Reinhart-3rd round,Ramage 4th, Arnold 4th,Ferland 5th and Holland 7th round.

Credit must also be given for Giordano as he was signed as a free agent out of Junior.

Some picks were traded to get back playing assets to satisfy Flames ownership directive to win every year. Another misconception was that Sutter only drafted WCHL players. Looking at the list is a healthy dose of Swedes, US College players.

Feaster era so far has had the benefit of very high picks due to mediocre results which have declined year over year to the present sad state. 2010-11 13th 2011-12 21st traded down from 14.

Everyone knows the chances of success are very high with the 1-5 pick overall and dropping off incrementally with each group of 10 thereafter.

The Sutter are was defined by 1st round picks which cannot be compared with the mid teen picks. The one top 10 pick was very solid with a high end NHL player chosen

The draft record was not stellar however the Flames during that period had the lowest overall picks on average due to on ice success.

I thought I would provide the summary to provide some balance to the referral of the bleak period. Some good pieces were added with liely some more to come.

BTW the same scouting staff remains largely in place today.

Now if you want to analyze Craig Button's use of top 10 draft picks that is enirely another discussion and was nearly a complete waste leaving Sutter with not much on the shelves upon his arrival.However he didn't complain about his predessor but got to work.

I suggest it is time for Feaster to do the same!

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#74 kittensandcookies
April 03 2013, 01:22PM
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Comeau to BJs for 5th round pick.

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#75 RexLibris
April 03 2013, 01:22PM
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Blue Jackets trade for Comeau?

kac beat me to it.

That pick replaces the Wideman pick, I believe.

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#76 RexLibris
April 03 2013, 01:25PM
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Luongo pulled off the ice at practice. Toronto?

With the number of 2nd round picks moving this year I am beginning to believe that the much-ballyhooed depth of this draft is perceived (by GMs and scouts) as being entirely in the 1st round.

This could make for some interesting moves at draft day as well.

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#77 the-wolf
April 03 2013, 01:27PM
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RexLibris wrote:

Luongo pulled off the ice at practice. Toronto?

With the number of 2nd round picks moving this year I am beginning to believe that the much-ballyhooed depth of this draft is perceived (by GMs and scouts) as being entirely in the 1st round.

This could make for some interesting moves at draft day as well.

Absolutely. Very deep first round, falls off considerably after that.

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#78 FireOnIce
April 03 2013, 01:28PM
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Today has been great so far. I'm just laughing and laughing and laughing.

Kekelainen is making his mark on CBJ now. Gaborik, Leighton, Comeau in, and garbage out. Multiple first round picks.

Re: Comeau; WHERE IS ATKINSSON? AND JOHANSON? I DEMAND WE GET SOMEONE GOOD FOR OUR GARBAGE!

... /sarcasm

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#79 Derzie
April 03 2013, 01:51PM
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the-wolf wrote:

Actually, his loyalty to KK is one thing that's easy to understand. From no profits to enormous profits since KK came in.

Profits are more to do with the strength of the Canadian dollar and the post-clutch-and-grab NHL. KK is a passenger.

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#80 Scary Gary
April 03 2013, 01:52PM
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@RexLibris

"That ship has sailed and the Flames are undergoing a greater (by degrees of impact player) change than that which the Oilers underwent in 2009-2010."

Yes, because the oilers didn't have any impact players. They had some brutal contracts that Lowe had inked and no one would take their garbage (Horcoff, Pisani, O'Sullivan, Comrie etc). Man that team was brutal, when Dustin Penner is your best player you're going to finish 30th. That being said we may indeed finish 26-30 next year.

"Another interesting trend seems to be some resentment towards Kiprusoff. If this were the last year of his contract, after which he were retiring, would some fans still be angry at him for not accepting a trade?"

It's a business, Kipper has a year left and does not hold a no trade clause; don't have your agent float a report out there that you're going to retire if traded, brutal.

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#81 Nick T
April 03 2013, 02:13PM
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suba steve wrote:

"I think you are giving Feaster a bit too much credit in many areas but let's start with the draft. In the mid 1990 through 2002,s primarily Craig Button regime Calgary had a period of unprecendented high picks due to poor season results; 1996-7 5th 1997-8 5th 1998-9 8th 1999-0 6th 2000-1 11th 2001-2 9th"

I know Flames have never drafted higher then 6th. In checking your info on Flame draft position from '97 to 2002, you had them all wrong, every single one. Thanks for coming out.

Took the info from Flames website and should be directionally correct. That period was undoubtedly the toughest in Falmes history.

if you are disputing someone else's info please I challenge you to provide your own research to dispute it.

I know it takes a bit more time than throwing out 1 liners.

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#82 Veggie Dog
April 03 2013, 02:21PM
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Nick T wrote:

Took the info from Flames website and should be directionally correct. That period was undoubtedly the toughest in Falmes history.

if you are disputing someone else's info please I challenge you to provide your own research to dispute it.

I know it takes a bit more time than throwing out 1 liners.

1996-13th D. Morris 1997-6th D Tzachuk 1998-6th Rico Fata (barf) 1999-11th Oleg Saprykin 2000- 9th Brent Krahn 2001- 14th Chuck Kobasew 2002- 10th Eric Nystrom 2003- 9th Dion Phaneuf 2004- 24th Kris Chucko

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#83 Veggie Dog
April 03 2013, 02:22PM
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Nick T wrote:

Took the info from Flames website and should be directionally correct. That period was undoubtedly the toughest in Falmes history.

if you are disputing someone else's info please I challenge you to provide your own research to dispute it.

I know it takes a bit more time than throwing out 1 liners.

No 5ths ever.

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#84 Double Dion
April 03 2013, 02:32PM
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If we draft one of the big 4, one of Morrissey, Pullock or Erne and Petan then all is forgiven. If we make idiotic off the board picks, I'll be very unhappy.

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#85 RexLibris
April 03 2013, 02:48PM
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Double Dion wrote:

If we draft one of the big 4, one of Morrissey, Pullock or Erne and Petan then all is forgiven. If we make idiotic off the board picks, I'll be very unhappy.

I'd be most concerned with the prospect of trading those picks for immediate help. It would indicate that the organization is impatient and does not see any long-term need to correct what have been systemic problems.

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#86 suba steve
April 03 2013, 02:51PM
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@Nick T

Thanks for the invitation to correct your work, but...no thanks. VD (unfortunate initials) already did it for us. Thanks VD.

Sorry, didn't intend to be snide, but I always make an effort to provide factual info (when I provide info), and expect the same of others. I'm sure you have valid opinions, but when providing info, make efforts to ensure the info is correct, or your readers will lose interest/not take you seriously.

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#87 Jay
April 03 2013, 02:54PM
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dood, i've been saying Calgary can't draft. so obvious. developing is another matter, but ima assuming since we are hopeless drafting, we aren't much better with the developing. so its much better to trade for prospects that someone else developed. how else can we get anywhere... oh wait ...we could fire Feester the melester and get rid of king of the castle.

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#88 the-wolf
April 03 2013, 04:44PM
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RexLibris wrote:

I'd be most concerned with the prospect of trading those picks for immediate help. It would indicate that the organization is impatient and does not see any long-term need to correct what have been systemic problems.

You must have been listening to the Feaster conference. Way to turn the knife Rex.

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#89 Dutchscooter
April 03 2013, 05:55PM
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Scary Gary wrote:

"That ship has sailed and the Flames are undergoing a greater (by degrees of impact player) change than that which the Oilers underwent in 2009-2010."

Yes, because the oilers didn't have any impact players. They had some brutal contracts that Lowe had inked and no one would take their garbage (Horcoff, Pisani, O'Sullivan, Comrie etc). Man that team was brutal, when Dustin Penner is your best player you're going to finish 30th. That being said we may indeed finish 26-30 next year.

"Another interesting trend seems to be some resentment towards Kiprusoff. If this were the last year of his contract, after which he were retiring, would some fans still be angry at him for not accepting a trade?"

It's a business, Kipper has a year left and does not hold a no trade clause; don't have your agent float a report out there that you're going to retire if traded, brutal.

I'd beg to differ that Calgary doesn't have any impact players right now, either.

They all got traded away in the last week.

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#90 Bruce
April 03 2013, 09:26PM
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Michael wrote:

King can claim the credit, but it is really the exchange rate dropping from $1.50 ish to par. Thats a huge impact when you have Cdn revenue and US salaries...

Kipper is so selfish. If it wasn't for Sutter he would have remained on the scrap heap and never had a career. he should have returned the favour and accepted a trade to TO. The guy was so over rated...never there for the big games accept for that streak in 04.

Hope you ride the pine till u retire kipper

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