FlamesNation Roundtable - 2013 Season Review

Kent Wilson
May 02 2013 11:43AM

 

 

The season over, so it's about time for another FN roundtable. Ryan Pike, Vintage Flame, Ryan Lambert, BoL and Justin Azevedo took the time respond to some of my questions laying out and assessing Calgary's disappointing (half) season.

Feel free to post your own responses in the comments.

1.) So the good ship Flames finally ran into the iceberg. Shocked? Surprised? Or expected?

Justin Azevedo: A little surprised. The goaltending was so far beyond my worst nightmare. I thought the team, with replacement level goaltending, was an 8th place team. It was pretty bloody close: with replacement level goaltending, the Flames would've had about 52 points. It's conceivable to think that a team with Bouwmeester and Iginla post-deadline could've found 3 extra points. Oh well.

Ryan Lambert: This is a joke, right? They were running into icy waters three years ago with Murray screaming full steam ahead and Feaster shoveling enough coal for three men. That it took this long for them to notice they'd been taking on millions of gallons requires a special kind of idiocy. We all get what we deserve.

Ryan Pike: Not entirely surprised, although the degree to which the wheels fell off the bus was rather impressive.

Book of Loob: Yeah, we all saw this coming. Not that I hated the moves, but when your biggest improvements to your team were Jiri Hudler and Dennis Wideman, even Going For It doesn't seem like it would be enough. I think the Flames would have been better off with a full lockout this season (though, I prefer the Flames playing mediocre hockey to playing no hockey at all).

Vintage Flame: I'm not sure there is anyone out there that can honestly admit they are shocked or surprised. At the same time, I'm not prepared to say that this season was what I "expected". There were so many factors in this season that really left the whole notion of success or failure up in the air. How was Kipper going to play? Was Iggy going to be able to carry this team of misfits on his back one more time? If so, how long would it take him to get fired up? There was the wild card that was Roman Cervenka. Was he really the best player outside of the NHL?

In the end, all of our off-season questions were answered, but those answers were what most of us thought for a long time. The fact that they all got answered at once in this shortened season, probably made it all that more painful.

2.) How do you feel about the Iginla trade?

JA: Terrible. Two non-factor prospects and a draft pick that will be used to pick a player with a 15% chance of playing 200 games in the NHL. We've all seen Hanowski and he has exactly 0 redeeming parts to his game. Yet another example of Weisbrod thinking he's smarter than everyone else.

RL: Fine. They were extremely limited in what they could do so to get the pick and two quarter-decent prospects is about as good as they could have hoped for in 2013.

RP: It was probably two years too late and the situation surrounding the trade (with Iginla having his finger on the trigger) wasn't ideal, but the return was probably as good as they were going to get. I'll never forget being in the building that day.

BoL: I'm still heartbroken. I get it, I get that it was time to move on (and maybe by "it's time", we meant two years ago, but shut up about that), but man, I miss that dude. I hate every so called Flames fan who lined up to by Penguins jerseys, and while they are quite certainly my favourite buddy cop pairing, I could not be less excited to see Hanowski and Agostino fade out into obscurity over the next few seasons.

Bottom line, if Iggy and the Pens are lifting grail come playoffs end, I doubt I'll be feeling the pride and happiness that everyone's telling me I should be. Because it should have been us.

VF: As a huge fan of Iginla, I was really disappointed. I wanted them to get more than the return they got. I wanted to see the Flames do what Cliff Fletcher used to do to the St. Louis Blues when they were trading partners; the Doug Gilmours or Joey Mullens. In the end the realist in me sees the deal for what it probably really was. Do I like seeing them get two NCAA players that no one had heard of, not really. But it is going to be that same ol' story, that we just have to wait and see what they turn into. Pray Flames fans... Pray.

3.) How about the Bouwmeester deal?

JA: I'm even more negative about the Bouwmeester deal. JBo is still an elite player at his position and he's signed through next year. Berra will not perform in any significant minutes, likely ever, and Cundari's upside is likely that of a 2nd pairing defenceman. For the best defender in the Northwest division, that's a pitiful return. The draft pick, once again, has a 15% chance of playing 200 games in the NHL. For the two biggest assets the Flames have (or rather, had), 2 late 1st round picks and one NHL player is embarrassing.

RL: Less fine but also fine, for the same reasons listed above. Why not sell everybody? It's only two years too late.

RP: The Flames finally sold high on a player, getting a couple decent prospects and a first (and some cap space) for a guy they got for basically nothing. The deal itself was a bit surprising, but I was impressed by how well the team came together afterwards.

BoL: Less emotional. Still angry about the trade, because they're going to do everything they can to make Reto Berra an NHL goalie, and I think that's going to blow up in their faces. Cundari looks okay, I guess, the 1st rounder helps. But whatever, they should have got more.

VF: Bouwmeester was a different story. He was the best defenseman on the team and I think the Flames could have gotten more if they had putten the screws to any prospective suitors just a little more. Remember when I referenced what Cliff Fletcher used to do to the Blues? Well the Blues did exactly that. There are a lot of fans out there that are going to be relieved that the Flames even got what they did for Bow. I'm not one of them. I've always like him and now we just have to hope that the first round pick we got in the deal, somehow hits pay-dirt.

4.) Is there anything else you wish the Flames did at the deadline?

JA: I would've tried to sell Tanguay, Cammalleri, Hudler, Cervenka, Babchuk, Smith and Sarich as well. The last three I would've been happy for anything in return.

RL: Traded literally every other veteran with any value. If you're gonna tank, tank hard. But no, they're resolved to half-ass even this, which I guess is to be expected.

RP: Outside of maybe exploring potential moves for Cammalleri and Tanguay, not really.

BoL: Trade Sarich and Babchuk, also learn how to clone 25 year old Al MacInnis. Maybe lower the price of beer at the Dome so those of us who still wanted to go to games could survive.

VF: I'm not happy with how the Flames handled the Kiprusoff impromptu NTC. I don't like the fact the fact that if they had a potential deal with the Leafs, or whoever, that they first felt it necessary to clear it with Miikka. I know what Miikka has meant to this team over the years, but I also saw the writing on the wall a long time ago.

The Flames missed out on a chance to get redemption against the Leafs for the fiasco that was the Phaneuf deal, and they dropped the ball. There is a reason why management is management and the players are players. Mixing those roles never works out and once again the team paid the price to appease one player.

5.) The rebuild is upon us. Is this management team capable of guiding the team out of the woods?

JA: Ha. No. The two above examples and the myriad of history attached to Feaster and Weisbrod leaves me increasingly pessimistic as to the Flames' long term chances. I can't think of one positive move that wasn't immediately canceled out with a negative one. Sutter's equilibrium was likely about 55-60%, where Feaster's has been about 35-40%. They're hubristic liars, and bad ones at that.

RL: No, but largely because of ownership being ridiculous. People may not like what Darcy Regier had to say about fans suffering but if you're gonna commit to a rebuild you gotta commit hard. I don't totally trust Feaster to execute this properly in the best of circumstances but that's just how it's gonna be. Gotta live with it.

RP: I've got a wait and see attitude about this. There seems to be a lot of trust being put in John Weisbrod and the amateur scouts. If players keep developing well, I would imagine management stays more or less intact.

BoL: A resounding NO is heard from the peanut gallery.

VF: Well we're going to find out right? I still like the trio that make up the coaching staff, but then again we all know who this question is directed, if not targeted, at. All the excuses and free passes Feaster was given when he took over the gig are done and spent. This is his team now, and what ever happens going forward, is on him... Not Darryl. Is he capable of taking this on? Man, I just don't know, but I will for sure have a much stronger sense of what side of the fence I'm on after the draft.

6.) What were the main positives to come out of finally bottoming out you think?

JA: Well, they finally realized that the team was going in the wrong direction, so that's good, I guess. But they didn't do much to get the team going in the right direction. Maybe now they realize the importance of keeping costs low and not handing out clauses like candy, but I doubt it.

RL: They're going to be picking high which means they'll get good - or even great - quality players without paying through the nose for them. If the money shelled out for Wideman and Hudler is what it takes to attract players to Calgary these days, doing so isn't worth it.

RP: More time for the kids to actually play rather than the team relying on veterans come hell or high water.

BoL: TJ Brodie getting extended looks as a feature defender, obviously, and the play of Sven Baertschi at the end of the year. Seems like he regained some of that confidence he so famously lost when he was sent down to Abby. The Matt Stajan resurgence was pretty nice, as at least now he has trade value, and it seems pretty clear now that locking up Backlund is a MUST for the Flames. From a fan perspective, hopefully it knocks a few fairweather fans out of the ticket queue and real fans can start going to hockey games again. I think I'm looking forward to that day the most.

VF: The biggest thing has to be that this organization could no longer turn a blind eye, and had to look in a new direction. They needed to face the fact that this teawas never going to change significantly enough with Iginla still at the helm. The man was too set in his ways, and by God he earned the right to be that way. But it was coming at a major price and pick whatever cliche you want, but it was time to pass the gauntlet.

7.) Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the end of the Iginla era and change of direction?

JA: It depends on how long this management team in is in place. The longer they're here, the worse my attitude will get.

RL: Optimistic, because what's the alternative? Getting older and still losing. Who cares?

RP: Cautiously optimistic.

BoL: Neither, really. This team is at a crossroads, and I have no clear gauge as to which way they're going about this. I'll know better come draft day.

VF: There are two things that has me optimistic: the bounce back year for Backlund and the stunning emergence of TJ Brodie. These are both kids that this team can build around in both ends of the ice. No one is asking them to take over for Iggy or JBo and carry this teamm on their shoulders, but you have to walk before you can run, and they have given this team a few steps in the right direction.

8.) Finally, what should the team prioritize this summer?

JA: Tough-minutes forwards and the buyouts or other movements of players like Tanguay, Cammalleri, Hudler and so on. Not spending any significant money on the free-agent market. Continue developing players who are AHL-skill level in the AHL, don't rush them to the NHL. Stop talking to the media. Trade up in the draft to get two top-10 players. Get a top-4 defenseman.

RL: Selling everybody who's not nailed down.

RP: Centres. A lot of the defensive zone fire-drills that we saw thoughout the year were partially due to the Flames dressing anybody with two hands and a pulse up the middle, making it difficult for defensive zone coverage to have any real structure.

BoL: Grit, size, intangibles, feet moving, simplicity.

VF: The draft is going to be pivotal; that and what they do with the varrious signings that need attention. Let the UFA's walk and the biggest RFA priorities are Backs and Brodie. They need to make sure to get those right and then really evaluate what they might be able to accomplish with all that Cap Space. They aren't going to be able to go out and buy up every UFA that is available, but I think if they are strategic enough, they may be able to attract a few.

They may allso want to test the waters with the two first rounders they got in the deals. If they can perhaps package the St. Lou pick with a contract, they might be able to get another slot in the top 10. If they can do that, they should jump at it. As long as it doesn't include Baertschi, Backlund or Brodie; everyone else is free game. Last but not least, they gotta find a way to fill all the slots on the grit-chart!

Remember StreakCred!

Don't forget to play StreakCred the new playoff pool game from the Nation Network. You can win a trip for 2 to Oktoberfest in Germany among the awesome prizes up for grabs. Only $20 and a portion of the proceeds go to Edmonton Charities.

Sign up here.

39d8109299a9795cb3b41a4e9b49d501
Former Nations Overlord. Current FN contributor and curmudgeon For questions, complaints, criticisms, etc contact Kent @ kent.wilson@gmail. Follow him on Twitter here.
Avatar
#1 Ryan Pike
May 02 2013, 01:03PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
2
props

"Hey Ray! It's Jay! How would you like a 35-year-old winger with no contract for next season, declining underlying numbers and who missed time in the past few years with lingering groin and back issues?"

I would've been satisfied with just the first, to be honest.

Avatar
#2 Primo
May 02 2013, 12:05PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

For the most part my responses are consistent with RP's thoughts.

I'm a bit surprised at the views that we should have got more in return for Iggy and JBo. Iggy's age factor and the limitations placed by him on trade options does not appear to have been considered adequately and JBo's entire salary liability to the Blues was a huge factor not mentioned but their is a part of me that really wanted Ty Rattie included somehow.

Agree with JA's assessment of Weisbrod but despite his arrogance he will be judged shortly on the Jankowski outcome.

The trading of the remaining veterans although an interesting concept in securing potential drafts it is also the most effecient method of also securing the Oiler rebuld model that would be very concerning to me.

Nice job gents...I enjoyed reading all of your thoughts!

Avatar
#3 dotfras
May 02 2013, 12:25PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

Hard to write off either trade until picks are made & players are integrated into the Flames system.

P A T I E N C E.

Like Cundari. Hard worker, small yet tough, offensive upside.

These trades accomplished what so many for so long were calling for: a stocking of the cupboards.

We added some youth and depth that will at the very least beef up our AHL team (which will have a direct effect on the development of our better prospects).

Avatar
#4 Craig
May 02 2013, 12:40PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

As many said my confidence in management moving forward will depend on the draft. if the three first round picks are used logically, (draft or trade) and there are no bonehead UFA signings in the offseason, then we might just be ok in this rebuild. If we go off the board in the top ten then let the panic commence.

Avatar
#6 Graham
May 02 2013, 12:55PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@dotfras

'These trades accomplished what so many for so long were calling for: a stocking of the cupboards'

I'm with Justin on the quality of the prospects coming back to Calgary, 'non factors'. True, Feaster has stocked the cupboards, but with marginal NHLers. If Feaster really wanted players like Hanowski and gang, you could have acquired each and everyone of them for mid to late draft picks. Why waste your higher end bargaining chips like Iggy and JBo?

Avatar
#7 mattyc
May 02 2013, 01:22PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

agree that the draft is a big piece of the evaluation of the last couple months.

I find myself pretty much agreeing with what JA says. I'm underwhelmed with the Iginla trade, but would have been more accepting of the Boston deal (at least we would have gotten a 'B' prospect (Kokhlachev) in the deal).

JBo deal was pretty weak. Why we needed to include Berra is beyond me. Cundari may be an Andrew Ference type bottom 4 d (which would be ok), but other than that, it was weak. We better pull a rabbit out of our hat with that draft pick.

I actually feel pretty confident with Weisbrod. I think he's pretty good at player evaluation and I have trouble faulting him on going off the board on draft picks given that its a crapshoot and none of us have seen most of these players play.

I'm a cautious optimist. I'd like to see what happens at the draft, but I'm comforted by what I think is a better drafting. I also agree with JA that I think we would have been a borderline playoff team had we gotten better goaltending. If we could find a goalie this summer, and top 4 d i'm not sure the playoffs are out of reach. Even as it is with our roster, I think another couple months in the season, and we would be drafting around 12th.

Avatar
#8 dotfras
May 02 2013, 01:25PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@Graham

Jarome was a high end bargaining chip in 2011.

JBo had finally played himself back into that dimension - and his salary sucks.

While as a Flames fan I wish we could have got more, as a realist, I'm happy with the picks, & the hope that maybe 2/4 of the prospects pan out.

Iginla for a 1st Round Pick // Hanowski - 3rd Round // Agostino - 5th Round

Bouwmeester for a 1st Round Pick // Barra - 4th Round // Cundari - Undrafted

While the prospects aren't "blue chip", I'm happier with adding some older guys instead of late draft picks.

Avatar
#9 Justin Azevedo
May 02 2013, 01:31PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

I forgot to mention it in my answers, but the thing that pisses me off more than anything else about the prospects is that those guys are basically the same type of guys you can sign on the free agent market. they're not guys who aren't gonna be available after they're done school or over in europe or whatever.

cundari is probably the exception, but berra we've seen before in karlsson, hanowski we've seen before in lamb and agostino we've seen before in eddy.

Avatar
#10 Kurt
May 02 2013, 02:04PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

This question made me laugh:

"WHAT WERE THE MAIN POSITIVES TO COME OUT OF FINALLY BOTTOMING OUT"

No chance we've bottomed out yet...

Avatar
#11 BurningSensation
May 02 2013, 02:21PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

1. Agree with Justin, the biggest shocker was how terrible the goaltending was. Without it, the team was in free fall.

2. Iggy brought in less than I had hoped for, but was appropriate given where his contract, NMC, and declining skillset are at.

3. JBo's return was again appropriate for the situation. His contract $'s are way too high for his overall game (however underappreciated it is), and he also had the NMC that would limit the suitors for his services. I actually give Feaster credit as he was the only GM to walk away with 1st rnd picks in a deep draft at the trade deadline, and he got 2 of them.

4. I would have traded Justin A and Ryan L for a stuffed unicorn, a handful of glitter and a sunbeam. Sadly, there were no takers.

5. I think so. I'm a fan of how Feaster has approached rebuilding the teams talent pipeline, and development system. What remains to be seen is if Feaster and Weisbrod can turn one of their big swings into a homerun.

6. BoL has the answer: "From a fan perspective, hopefully it knocks a few fairweather fans out of the ticket queue and real fans can start going to hockey games again. I think I'm looking forward to that day the most."

7. Cautiously optimisitc.

8. If there is a way (and there may not be) to get a a 2nd high pick in the draft I would move mountains to do so. Unlike others, I would definitely include Giordano or Glen X as part of that trade bait because while they are both very good players on very good deals, they are also never going to be elite - and the only way to get elite players to stay on value contracts is to draft them. If Carolina's 1st was in play the only guy I wouldn't consider putting into the package is Sven (and maybe Johnny G.) A double tap of high-end forwards (say Barkov and Nichushkin) would be exactly what the Dr ordered for the Flames rebuild. As it is, we should probably land one of those guys with out #6 pick, and two other very good prospects with our late round selections, so the status quo as the fall-back position is still fine.

Unlike Justin I wouldn't waste energy or resources on locating 'tough minutes' players right now. They would bouy the team in the standings, likely cost future assets to aquire, and erode the chances of the Flames landing elite talent. The tough minutes guys should be drafted, or aquired after a core of elite talent has been put in place. I love David Backes' game, but the cost of trading for him (or a player like him), would actually set the rebuilding process back. The exception is if you can find a Backes who is 22, like say ROR...

Avatar
#12 mattyc
May 02 2013, 03:08PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@Justin Azevedo

I was under the impression that Agostino was a little above that level, no?

Avatar
#13 jeremywilhelm
May 02 2013, 03:30PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

If you just get by with the fact that we got late first rounders for good players and ignore the prospects as anything of worth, you will probably be upset but in the long run, get over it quicker. None of the prospects that came back are worth a damn, so put all your hopes on these first rounder kids. They are probably better prospects than anything be have in our system.

Avatar
#14 clYDE
May 02 2013, 03:42PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
jeremywilhelm wrote:

If you just get by with the fact that we got late first rounders for good players and ignore the prospects as anything of worth, you will probably be upset but in the long run, get over it quicker. None of the prospects that came back are worth a damn, so put all your hopes on these first rounder kids. They are probably better prospects than anything be have in our system.

I still think the offer from Detroit was so much better for JBO. I wonder if Feaster could have got them to move on the 2nd rounder too? I believe we could have done much better on the trades and I agree that Kipper should have been traded and we should have tried harder to move some other parts which would have landed us a top 3 pick probably too. Good comments by all here and although I do not have faith in this management, I guess we need to see how they do at the draft and with the cap space before passing final judgment.

Avatar
#15 Kurt
May 02 2013, 03:50PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
jeremywilhelm wrote:

If you just get by with the fact that we got late first rounders for good players and ignore the prospects as anything of worth, you will probably be upset but in the long run, get over it quicker. None of the prospects that came back are worth a damn, so put all your hopes on these first rounder kids. They are probably better prospects than anything be have in our system.

I agree the prospects are essentially useless, or at best spins on the roulette wheel. But the late 1st rounders aren't much better than more spins on the wheel.

This is a good read:

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/scott_cullen/?ID=267960

The point is to note the player rankings by place in the first round. A 25-30 pick (which is where St.L & Pittsburgh likely will be) is ranked 3.8 on his somewhat arbitrary list of quality of player. That lands the quality of prospect somewhere between "Very good AHLer" (3) and "Fringe NHLer" (4).

Sure we can go through the drafts and find gems like Corey Perry in this range. But there are a LOT more complete busts.

My point is, I hope Feaster uses those extra 1st rounders to move #6 up, hopefully into the top 3. We NEED elite talent. Its the only way to basically ensure we get it.

An interesting tidbit... we've taken 6th overall twice before:

1997 6th overall : Daniel Tkaczuk

1998 6th overall : Rico Fata

Avatar
#16 Graham
May 02 2013, 03:57PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

Taking Edwards at his word (meaning it wasn't just PR spin), the marching orders for Feaster to produce a playoff team, may have the biggest impact on the off season. These sound very much like the instructions that Sutter operated under. A win now at basically any cost mentality, short term vision, trade picks and assets for players, and a focus on veteran players. It's going to be interesting to see if Feaster can avoid falling into the same pit that Sutter ended up in.

Avatar
#17 dotfras
May 02 2013, 04:01PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@Kurt

There is so much luck involved - and I think it varies year to year.

It's being stated that this years draft is deeper than in years past, possibly comparable to 2003. If this is true then we have a better chance of hitting a home run with our late first rounders.

2003:

20 - Brent Burns 21 - Mark Stuart 22 - Marc-Antoine Pouliot 23 - Ryan Kesler 24 - Mike Richards 25 - Anthony Stewart 26 - Brian Boyle 27 - Jeff Tambellini 28 - Corey Perry 29 - Patrick Eaves 30 - Shawn Belle

The only complete bust on that list is Shawn Belle.

Avatar
#18 clYDE
May 02 2013, 04:08PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

Seems to be more and more talk out there about certain things coming up in this draft. The first is that the 1st is set and not open for trade discussion. The second is that everyone after number 1 is open for business and finally and most interesting is that there are 2 players who may crash the top 5 and possibly 4 who aren't there now on many lists. The 2 most frequently mentioned are Nickuskin and Nurse with the Russian rated even as high as 2. Another surprise see both Ristolainen and Lindholme appearing at 5 on some boards. Ristolainen may be the most all over the map prospect. So, if you are Jay, do you try to trade up if you really like one guy or stay where you are as this could be a year where a Barkov falls in your lap? Or, if you lose out on who you want and Nurse is there at 6, do you try to trade with Philly who loves him apparently and if so, what would that trade look like in order to be worth it for the Flames?

Avatar
#19 Justin Azevedo
May 02 2013, 04:19PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
mattyc wrote:

I was under the impression that Agostino was a little above that level, no?

likely. I was mostly illustrating a point.

Avatar
#20 ChinookArch
May 02 2013, 04:29PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

Justin re: Feaster and Wisebrod "They're hubristic liars, and bad ones at that." I think they are worse, and call it Intellectual Arrogance, or a belief they are always the smartest guys in the room.

Getting very tired of this act.

Avatar
#21 BurningSensation
May 02 2013, 04:39PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
ChinookArch wrote:

Justin re: Feaster and Wisebrod "They're hubristic liars, and bad ones at that." I think they are worse, and call it Intellectual Arrogance, or a belief they are always the smartest guys in the room.

Getting very tired of this act.

I'd rather have guys who think they are the smartest guys in the room handling our rebuild than guys who know they aren't.

Avatar
#22 suba steve
May 02 2013, 04:48PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@Kurt

"An interesting tidbit... we've taken 6th overall twice before:

1997 6th overall : Daniel Tkaczuk

1998 6th overall : Rico Fata"

Another tidbit:

Cory Stillman, 6th overall 1992. Why is everyone forgetting the best 6th overall the Flames have ever drafted?

Avatar
#23 Kurt
May 02 2013, 04:52PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
dotfras wrote:

There is so much luck involved - and I think it varies year to year.

It's being stated that this years draft is deeper than in years past, possibly comparable to 2003. If this is true then we have a better chance of hitting a home run with our late first rounders.

2003:

20 - Brent Burns 21 - Mark Stuart 22 - Marc-Antoine Pouliot 23 - Ryan Kesler 24 - Mike Richards 25 - Anthony Stewart 26 - Brian Boyle 27 - Jeff Tambellini 28 - Corey Perry 29 - Patrick Eaves 30 - Shawn Belle

The only complete bust on that list is Shawn Belle.

I keep hearing about how awesome the draft is from Flames fans, but wonder where this comes from. All the info I can find says its just an average draft year. I'd be happy to be proven otherwise... 2003 is known as perhaps the best draft ever. Highly unlikely... Read this:

http://lastwordonsports.com/2013/04/08/2013-nhl-draft-a-banner-year-not-so-fast/

1) Is this a deep draft? Exceptional? Ground Breaking? In a word, no. Now keep this in mind, when I assess the depth of a draft, and the overall quality of a draft, I am typically looking at the players who I expect to be drafted between 10-60, and comparing them to previous years. The fact is that this year’s draft is really no better (and no worse) than the 2012 draft, the 2011 draft, or other recent years. In many ways the overall talent level this year is comparable to most other years. I’m not seeing the level of talent that made 2003 so special, nor do I see the lack of talent that made 2007 a really weak year overall. Now keep in mind that even in a deep year there will be busts, and even in a bad year, there will be surprise gems, so no draft can really be ignored.

Avatar
#24 Kurt
May 02 2013, 04:54PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
suba steve wrote:

"An interesting tidbit... we've taken 6th overall twice before:

1997 6th overall : Daniel Tkaczuk

1998 6th overall : Rico Fata"

Another tidbit:

Cory Stillman, 6th overall 1992. Why is everyone forgetting the best 6th overall the Flames have ever drafted?

Whooops! Ha. I was looking back over the years quickly and missed that one. Thanks for the correction.

Daniel Tkaczuk...ha.

Avatar
#25 Kurt
May 02 2013, 04:59PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
dotfras wrote:

There is so much luck involved - and I think it varies year to year.

It's being stated that this years draft is deeper than in years past, possibly comparable to 2003. If this is true then we have a better chance of hitting a home run with our late first rounders.

2003:

20 - Brent Burns 21 - Mark Stuart 22 - Marc-Antoine Pouliot 23 - Ryan Kesler 24 - Mike Richards 25 - Anthony Stewart 26 - Brian Boyle 27 - Jeff Tambellini 28 - Corey Perry 29 - Patrick Eaves 30 - Shawn Belle

The only complete bust on that list is Shawn Belle.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/49838-2013-NHL-draft-lacks-depth-of-talent.html

Not saying these opinions are true, but the statement that this is a banner draft is myth or at best arguable.

Avatar
#26 RexLibris
May 02 2013, 05:18PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@Kurt

It isn't an exceptionally deep draft aside from the fact that the top four prospects are very intriguing and that it does feature a glut of good centers.

If this draft were really being considered by GMs and scouts, people who know far more about this sort of thing than any of us, to be as deep as the 2003 class, why would they have been so willing to trade 2nd round picks for players like Doug Murray?

The quality in the draft is there for teams that need centers, can afford to spend a 1st round pick on a potential 2nd or 3rd line guy, or take a chance on someone with size like Mantha or Gauthier. But there is absolutely no way of knowing with any certainty that this draft class will produce a windfall of franchise talent equivalent to the 2003 draft class. That was one unlike anything seen since perhaps 1981 or 1982.

Based on some information I've been compiling, I would probably say that if the draft is decent we could expect about a 20% success rate from the entire draft class five years from now, which would still be above average.

Avatar
#27 suba steve
May 02 2013, 05:23PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@clYDE

One assumption a lot of posters are making is that they know the top 4 names on the Flames final draft list. Every year at the draft there are surprises because no one holds the definative list/everyone's list is a bit different. The Hockey News top 4 is NOT Jones/MacKinnon/Drouin/Barkov, Craig Button's is. You gotta wait till June 30th to see the only list that matters.

Another thing bugging me. Many were worried about the Flames tanking, sending the wrong message to their players/fans about the importance of winning at all costs/cutting the heart out of the team. Now you want to trade away Glencross and/or Gio to trade up to a pick we could have had with just a few more losses. Talk about cutting the heart out of your team. Hope you all enjoyed that last win against Edmonton, cause it was the difference between picking 6th and drafting in the coveted top 4.

Avatar
#28 ChinookArch
May 02 2013, 05:33PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
BurningSensation wrote:

I'd rather have guys who think they are the smartest guys in the room handling our rebuild than guys who know they aren't.

Guys who THINK they are the smartest guys in the room rarely are.

Avatar
#29 please cancel acct
May 02 2013, 06:57PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Kent Wilson wrote:

The draft is a big piece, but the proof is in how these guys use the huge amount of cap budget they'll have in July. We'll truly learn their priorities and player/market assessment skills this summer now that they have ample room to move.

Could'nt agree more with this statement.The decisions made this summer will go a long way in determining whether we'll be a rebound team that could be competitve by 2015/16,or a team that,s going nowhere until upper management is replaced with hockey people, with a free hand to run things there way.

Avatar
#30 Gussey
May 02 2013, 07:23PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@Suba Steve

Todd Button and Craig Button are brothers and likely on the same page. Craig Button was the only guy who knew anything about the flames last years first round pick (what's his name?). I'm almost sure their top 4 of jones, mckinnon, druin and barkov are the same.

My guess is the flames covet mckinnon. I heard an interview with conroy when he went on and on about him. They don't have the assets for the #2 pick though I'm sure.

Avatar
#31 BurningSensation
May 02 2013, 07:45PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
ChinookArch wrote:

Guys who THINK they are the smartest guys in the room rarely are.

Yeah but the guys who know they aren't the smartest guys in the room are always right.

Avatar
#32 clYDE
May 02 2013, 07:49PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Gussey wrote:

@Suba Steve

Todd Button and Craig Button are brothers and likely on the same page. Craig Button was the only guy who knew anything about the flames last years first round pick (what's his name?). I'm almost sure their top 4 of jones, mckinnon, druin and barkov are the same.

My guess is the flames covet mckinnon. I heard an interview with conroy when he went on and on about him. They don't have the assets for the #2 pick though I'm sure.

Gio to play with Gudbrunson and to solidify their top 4 would get that conversation started I'm sure.

Avatar
#33 ChinookArch
May 02 2013, 08:24PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
BurningSensation wrote:

Yeah but the guys who know they aren't the smartest guys in the room are always right.

Ha! Nice work.

Avatar
#34 Kurt
May 02 2013, 08:32PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
clYDE wrote:

Gio to play with Gudbrunson and to solidify their top 4 would get that conversation started I'm sure.

Are you suggesting Gio straight up would get Florida's pick?

Avatar
#35 acg5151
May 02 2013, 09:09PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

JBo the best d-man in the NW division? I think Ryan Suter, Dan Hamhuis or even Erik Johnson might have something to say about that.

But no, Calgary got shafted on that deal. Seriously - they could have gotten another second, and an upgrade on one of the prospects. Jay Bouwmeester was worth a first, second, a good prospect, and a crap prospect.

Avatar
#36 clYDE
May 02 2013, 11:50PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Kurt wrote:

Are you suggesting Gio straight up would get Florida's pick?

Nope.

Avatar
#37 Franko J
May 03 2013, 01:13AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

I am not surprised about how this season unfolded for the Flames. I anticipated changes were due. I said at the end of last season this team was due for a serious make over or restructuring of the roster.

At the beginning of this season I focused on the younger players in our lineup. I wanted to see improvement from Backlund, Brodie and Beartschi. Which by the end of the season I was pleasantly surprised by the youth in our lineup. To me I have seen the little if ineffective accomplishments from Iginla, Bouwmeester, Tanguay, Giordano and the rest of the veteran players on the team to peak my interest. Apathy was beginning to set in.

As a fan I was tired of the lack of work ethic, the easily satisfied attitude of the core veterans. To me most of the players (veterans) were just here collecting a pay check with minimal effort or desire.

What resonates with me the most was how prophetic and true Feaster's comments on how Kiprusoff was the clear cut difference maker between a playoff contender and playoff pretender. For the past number of years Kiprusoff masked plenty of problems with this team and finally with his abysmal performance this past season proved that without him this team was not good enough and had serious holes in their game. As he faltered so did the team.

I really think heading into the off season the draft will be pivotal to future of this franchise. While many suggest the Flames should try to move up in the draft I think it is imperative to keep their three selections and use the picks to further bolster their prospect pool. While drafting is unpredictable, I think if the scouting staff has done their due diligence and preparation they can actually draft a decent number of prospects. This year many fans and management alike were surprised by TJ Brodie and his meteoric rise and untapped potential. Well in this draft outside of even the top 15 there is a number of very good prospects who will surprise just like Brodie.

Avatar
#38 SmellOfVictory
May 03 2013, 08:48AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Ryan Pike wrote:

"Hey Ray! It's Jay! How would you like a 35-year-old winger with no contract for next season, declining underlying numbers and who missed time in the past few years with lingering groin and back issues?"

I would've been satisfied with just the first, to be honest.

You know that's not how GMs look at it, though. Iginla's history is of great impact, as is his reputation as a leader, and the Pens clearly don't care as much about Corsi as they do their own stuff (what we'll just call finishing ability; the reason for trading for Neal).

Avatar
#39 SmellOfVictory
May 03 2013, 08:52AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
BurningSensation wrote:

Yeah but the guys who know they aren't the smartest guys in the room are always right.

Untrue. There's an entire cognitive phenomenon that's been defined based on the inversely proportional relationship between intelligence and perceived level of competence.

Smart people tend to be very aware of their own flaws, while lacking that same awareness of the flaws of others, and thus tend to underrated (sometimes significantly) their own abilities/intelligence. Dumb people tend toward the opposite.

Avatar
#40 suba steve
May 03 2013, 09:25AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Gussey wrote:

@Suba Steve

Todd Button and Craig Button are brothers and likely on the same page. Craig Button was the only guy who knew anything about the flames last years first round pick (what's his name?). I'm almost sure their top 4 of jones, mckinnon, druin and barkov are the same.

My guess is the flames covet mckinnon. I heard an interview with conroy when he went on and on about him. They don't have the assets for the #2 pick though I'm sure.

My brother (Suba Dave) and I have many similarities, but to assume we always (or even often) come to the exact same conclusion on any given issue is just...wrong. Especially when you consider that Button is (or should be) more influenced by his own scouting staff than by the guy who had his bedroom accross the hall when he was a kid.

I've said it before, I am done with trying to predict what this staff will do when it comes to the draft. It's their call. I just pray that they have done their homework (and I'm sure they have and are) and that whatever player traits they are placing the most value on, translate to good to great NHL players in the near to mid term future. I have been pleased with the progress of the players selected in the last two drafts under Feaster, and hope for more of the same on June 30.

Avatar
#41 the forgotten man
May 03 2013, 09:35AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
SmellOfVictory wrote:

Untrue. There's an entire cognitive phenomenon that's been defined based on the inversely proportional relationship between intelligence and perceived level of competence.

Smart people tend to be very aware of their own flaws, while lacking that same awareness of the flaws of others, and thus tend to underrated (sometimes significantly) their own abilities/intelligence. Dumb people tend toward the opposite.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.[1]

I still think that all Dunning Kruger are describing is a symptom of malignant narcissism, but that said, I think it sums up guys like Feaster, Weisbrod, King etc. Maybe a sequel will be made..."the Smartest Guys in the Room - The Calgary Flames Story".

Avatar
#42 suba steve
May 03 2013, 10:10AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@the forgotten man

You sound/read like a smart guy too. Until you make a clinical diagnosis of three men based upon??? I'm not defending any of them, but I am getting sick of some of the posts that I am seeing here recently.

Avatar
#43 Kevin R
May 03 2013, 10:57AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

Would love to show posts from people here versus a year ago. "JBLOW" for a bag of pucks, I even read throw in Backlund to sweeten the pot to take "JBLOW" off our hands. We got rid of his 6.68mil cap hit + a 1st rounder in a good draft & a few B prospects. This really is a tough crowd. Iggy.....well..... we gave him the steering wheel & let him drive the boat right to the end what more could you expect. The optics appeared that the Flames Organization took the high road but our future certainly took the low road. Certainly cant blame Feaster for this & those that are piling on him for this are wrong & a bunch of hypocrites. Personally, the only unacceptable return for Iggy is if we got nothing & he walked away to another team as a UFA on July 1. It was time to move on & spend our money elsewhere, no one was giving us our next franchise player for either of them, so get over it.

I say that #6 pick is untouchable, not even for a move up. Players will fall & what we will land with is a very good future NHL player regardless. I agree with other posts that we move whatever it takes (excluding our young players) to get a 2nd top 10 pick. I would target the Philly, Buffalo, New Jersey(but not Edmonton, I don't want to help those rotten scoundrels) to land a 2nd very good future NHL player that we hope to see challenging our lineup in 2 years with the likes of Johhny G & Wotherspoon & Seiloff.

Avatar
#44 RexLibris
May 03 2013, 12:53PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@Forgotten Man and SoV

Absolutely true. The best managers surround themselves with intelligent people and the most intelligent people never assume that they have all the information.

The story about Socrates and the Delphi Oracle still applies: Socrates was considered to be the wisest man alive not because of what he knew, but because he was aware of his own ignorance and limitations.

I won't say that Feaster and Weisbrod are or are not intelligent, but they do display a certain kind of behaviour that has led many organizations into troubled waters.

Avatar
#45 RexLibris
May 03 2013, 12:58PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@Kevin R

Yeah, I wouldn't move down from the #6 pick if I were the Flames, and frankly the only way they can move up into the top four is by moving that pick and one of Baertschi or Brodie, in my opinion. No other team is going to be interested in trading down unless it is in return for a king's ransom which the Flames simply can't afford.

As for a 2nd top ten pick, the only team that would make sense there is perhaps the Flyers. Buffalo and New Jersey aren't giving up their draft picks based on their current circumstances. But the price for a top ten pick is a player considered of equal value. How many of those do the Flames have and how many can they afford to part with?

Pick at 6, and again with the other two selections. If a trade needs to be made the best thing would be to subtract from their surplus, which is NHL veterans, not the one-time windfall of draft picks.

Avatar
#46 Neil
May 03 2013, 01:21PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

I see this "re-tool" decision as just the start of a process that will get us 3 first round picks this year and with current younger lineup and goalkeeping selection the Flames be in a lotto position for 2014 (Sam Reinhart) and 2015 "the mother load" (Connor McDavid) Good quality draft picks and time is the only way this is going to get better.....There are no quick fixes

Avatar
#47 Kevin R
May 03 2013, 01:28PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
RexLibris wrote:

Yeah, I wouldn't move down from the #6 pick if I were the Flames, and frankly the only way they can move up into the top four is by moving that pick and one of Baertschi or Brodie, in my opinion. No other team is going to be interested in trading down unless it is in return for a king's ransom which the Flames simply can't afford.

As for a 2nd top ten pick, the only team that would make sense there is perhaps the Flyers. Buffalo and New Jersey aren't giving up their draft picks based on their current circumstances. But the price for a top ten pick is a player considered of equal value. How many of those do the Flames have and how many can they afford to part with?

Pick at 6, and again with the other two selections. If a trade needs to be made the best thing would be to subtract from their surplus, which is NHL veterans, not the one-time windfall of draft picks.

Yeah, Philly, maybe Buffalo if we give them the Stl pick + Glencross or something & take that Leino contract off them. The price for top 10's are going to be huge, probably why as much fun as it is to speculate, none will actually be traded.

Avatar
#48 Captain Ron
May 04 2013, 01:14PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Kurt wrote:

This question made me laugh:

"WHAT WERE THE MAIN POSITIVES TO COME OUT OF FINALLY BOTTOMING OUT"

No chance we've bottomed out yet...

I think there is a very good chance that you are right about this. Looking at the teams who finished lower than we did there is a very good possibility we finish even lower than this year. To me it will all come down to goaltending and how well they can play in their own zone. In other words same old same old. Should it happen that they finish 29th or 30th next year they will have a very good shot at what should be a true franchise player.

Comments are closed for this article.