Flames trade Tanguay and Sarich for David Jones and Shane O'Brien

Kent Wilson
June 27 2013 04:55PM

 

AlexTanguay

 

- pic via James Teterenko, wikimedia commons

 

Word just came out this afternoon that the Flames dealt Alex Tanguay and Cory Sarich to the Colorado Avalanche for David Jones and Shane O'Brien.

The move isn't a surprise in terms of the player involved from a Calgary perspective. It has been clear since the end of the season that Tanguay wasn't too interested in being part of an extended rebuild and that the management wasn't too enmaoured with the player anymore either. Sarich, who was bafflingly re-signed last summer for another two years after spending a bunch of time in the pressbox, was a candidate to be moved as soon as the ink was dry on his new deal.

The return from the Avs is rather underwhelming. Jones is a 28-year old 6'2" winger who has twice scored 20+ goals in the NHL, including a career high 27 in 2010-11. He's not a high volume shooter, though, so his production is dependent on a relatively high personal SH%. His career rate is 14.7%, but with less than 500 shots under his belt, it's entirely possible we don't really know his true shooting ability and that number will come down a tad.

Jones faced top competition on the Avs last year and started a lot of shifts in the defensive zone. He also got buried with one of the worst possession rates on the team (-8.8/60 corsi rel), so it's safe to say that's not really his area of strength. He was similarly underwater the season previous despite much easier competition, which suggests Jones probably isn't a guy who is going to advance play very effectively. His contract stretches to 2015-16 at $4M/year.

Shane O'Brien is basically a slightly younger, marginally cheaper (actually exact same price) version of Sarich. He's big, he's not terribly mobile and he's not going to score a lot of points. He's a functional middle tier defenseman who can bang bodies who probably shouldn't spend too much time on the ice with the other team's best. 

The Flames need to staff the team next year and were desperate to deal a malcontent is what this deal comes down to. It's unlikely either Jones or O'Brien will play a significant role in the genesis of the Flames rebuild.

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Former Nations Overlord. Current Fn contributor and curmudgeon For questions, complaints, criticisms, etc contact Kent @ kent.wilson@gmail. Follow him on Twitter here.
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#51 joe
June 27 2013, 06:18PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

I'm a little surprised this deal isn't being better received. If Feaster had moved out a 3rd line winger with 20 goal ability and a late 20's bottom pair D-man on a reasonable contract for an over 30 winger with declining skills and attitude, and an over 30 D-man with marginal utility to actually play the game we'd be burning down what is left of the Saddledome.

Nice try to skew things onto your side of the fence.

Tanguay is a declining over 30 winger in terms of attitude and skills huh? Well, he still has alot more skill than Jones, and he's still effective on the PP. Not to mention the fact he's one of those rare guys that capable of sustaining a high shooting percentage. He has more "20 goal ability" than Jones has right now.

Sarich is a over 30 dman who has serious issues, but O'Brien's the exact same, just a few years younger. Not to mention the fact that he takes bonehead penalties. By the way, O'Briens "reasonable contract" has the EXACT SAME cap hit as Cory Sarich's. It's also has an extra year remaining on it, which is certainly not a good thing.

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#52 BJ
June 27 2013, 06:22PM
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I had no illusions that we could have used Tangs to move up in the draft. What surprises me is that we acquired a depth player at that salary for 3 more years.

I guess we get younger and no we are not in any cap trouble... although taking these kinds of deals on eventually could lead us back to the cap situation we were in 2-3 years ago.

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#53 joe
June 27 2013, 06:23PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

I know this is hard for you, but Tanguay is not an asset in demand - by anyone, and certainly not by any team drafting in the top 4.

How much of a non-entity was he? We were looking at buying him out. So yeah, keep the dream alive that somehow Tanguay was going to get us a top 4 pick.

We got younger, cheaper, and more talented in this deal. Pure win. No downside.

If you honestly think the Flames got substantially better with this deal, you are certainly chugging the koolaid. O'Brien's contract is 2 years with a 2mil cap hit, the exact same contract Sarich was signed to. How well did that contract work out for Calgary... Oh right, it bit them in the ass since Sarich sat for most of the season. Just like O'Brien will.

O'Brien will play some games next year, simply because of the fact that he was acquired to employ a 'tougher' team. If he's around for the 2015 season, however, he'll have a regular seat in the Flames press-box.

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#54 BJ
June 27 2013, 06:23PM
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I would preferred futures or preferred Tangs be used in a package to net Stastny.

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#55 BurningSensation
June 27 2013, 06:26PM
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joe wrote:

Nice try to skew things onto your side of the fence.

Tanguay is a declining over 30 winger in terms of attitude and skills huh? Well, he still has alot more skill than Jones, and he's still effective on the PP. Not to mention the fact he's one of those rare guys that capable of sustaining a high shooting percentage. He has more "20 goal ability" than Jones has right now.

Sarich is a over 30 dman who has serious issues, but O'Brien's the exact same, just a few years younger. Not to mention the fact that he takes bonehead penalties. By the way, O'Briens "reasonable contract" has the EXACT SAME cap hit as Cory Sarich's. It's also has an extra year remaining on it, which is certainly not a good thing.

A. Jones is a 40-45pt winger who works the 2nd PP unit vs Tanguay who is now just a 50pt winger who needed primo zone draws and 1st unit PP time with a HOFer to put those numbers up.

B. Sarich was a fringe NHL D-man for a terrible team (ours), while O'Brien is good enough to a fringe NHL D-man for better teams (Vcr etc.). and is younger.

So, to recap, we got younger, cheaper and kept our skill level at worst the same and probably improved it.

The only suggestion you have made so far is that Feaster should have made some sort of unicorn style trade using Tanguay for a top 4 pick.

Ride that Unicorn Jeff, ride it hard.

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#56 BurningSensation
June 27 2013, 06:33PM
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joe wrote:

If you honestly think the Flames got substantially better with this deal, you are certainly chugging the koolaid. O'Brien's contract is 2 years with a 2mil cap hit, the exact same contract Sarich was signed to. How well did that contract work out for Calgary... Oh right, it bit them in the ass since Sarich sat for most of the season. Just like O'Brien will.

O'Brien will play some games next year, simply because of the fact that he was acquired to employ a 'tougher' team. If he's around for the 2015 season, however, he'll have a regular seat in the Flames press-box.

I never said 'substantially better', but they are better.

We got a useful 3rd line winger who can score 20 goals, and a depth D-man. We traded a fading one-way winger and a healthy scratch to get them, and we got 9 years younger in the deal.

So yeah, I think empirically speaking we got better.

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#57 everton fc
June 27 2013, 06:36PM
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O'Brien will rack up 150+ PMs next season. He'll protect any of the kids that make the squad. Jackman's like this, but rarely wins a scrap. I don't think anyone fears Jackman.

We needed a guy like this. He's the #6 d-man. If they move Butler, you may see O'Brien paired with Smith, 5/6. Not saying I like this, but apparently they know each other from the past.

I've watched a few Youtube interviews with Jones. He's a decent guy. Good character. Or so it seems.

You move an aging player who doesn't want to be here, and an aging defencemen who needed to go, and you bring in a decent 3rd line RW and a #6/7 d-man who'll drop the mitts, but who can actually play a bit, unlike McGrattan.

Jones is the asset here. Though his contact is a bit of an albatross!

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#58 everton fc
June 27 2013, 06:38PM
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"Grapes" loves O'Brien!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NGzqGhp-sM

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#59 Baalzamon
June 27 2013, 06:41PM
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@everton fc

Stempniak is a legitimate top 6 forward and is all of one year older than Jones. Jones in no way replaces Stempniak or makes him expendable.

Cammalleri might net a late first with the right trade partner, or if the Flames eat some of his cap hit.

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#60 FireOnIce
June 27 2013, 06:55PM
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@BurningSensation

For once, I agree 100% with you BS. I am actually pleased by this trade, and here's why.

I saw Jones play while I lived in Colorado and have always had a bit of a man crush on him. He seems tenacious, does what the coach asks (and seems happy to do so), and can chip in 40-50 pts (if healthy).

He's just never been healthy. I watched the game where he took a bad knee-on-knee and went down for a whole season. Definitely a 20-goal scorer if he gets reasonable zone starts and plays 3rd/4th liners. Might be good on a wing with Stemps/GlenX or Hudler+Knight. Hudler-Knight-Jones? I wouldn't mind that as a 2nd/3rd line.

Plus, he fills the RW hole that everyone whined about when Iginla was shipped out. Flames lack RW depth. Sure, he's not Martin St. Louis, but he'll do as a stop-gap measure while kids develop in their respective leagues.

Shane O'Brien is meh. Everyone seems upset that his contract is a year longer than Sarich, but remember this: O'Brien is FIVE YEARS younger than Sarich. Also, it's only this season and next, and if they want, the Flames can use a compliance buyout on him next summer. No loss whatsoever. He also fills a spot.

Did the Flames get significantly better? No, hell no. They got rid of 2 malcontents, one of which is a whiny baby about Iginla and one of which told reporters he wanted a trade. We don't need them here. Jones and O'Brien are a mild upgrade. Flames got younger, a bit faster, and are only paying $500K more. If this was a mistake, they buy both of them out next summer and wash their hands.

Flames weren't going to make the playoffs next season anyway. Use these guys to ice a roster while the kids develop. I'm mildly pleased.

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#61 Colin.S
June 27 2013, 07:04PM
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Jones is younger than Tanguay and not any better, he's just more expensive, something the Avs don't like(paying players). O'Brein isn't any better or worse than Sarich. However both the guys we acquired are younger, and that's a good thing, which means they shouldn't decline as babdly as Sarich or Tangauy might.

As well this trade doesn't make us any better, which should keep us in line for another high draft pick.

This is a WIN trade for the FLames, you move out old grumpy garbage and bring in all right players who can fill holes.

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#62 FireOnIce
June 27 2013, 07:07PM
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I see a lot of people posting on TSN and elsewhere that 'Avs got rid of that horrific Jones contract'. Let's be clear, Jones only makes $500K more per season than Tanguay, and their contracts are the same length. And he's 5 years younger than Tanguay.

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#63 ChinookArch
June 27 2013, 07:10PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

I know this is hard for you, but Tanguay is not an asset in demand - by anyone, and certainly not by any team drafting in the top 4.

How much of a non-entity was he? We were looking at buying him out. So yeah, keep the dream alive that somehow Tanguay was going to get us a top 4 pick.

We got younger, cheaper, and more talented in this deal. Pure win. No downside.

Younger - yes. Cheaper - yes. More talented - no. In the end, Calgary got grittier and bigger, so yes overall I think it's a win.

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#64 joe
June 27 2013, 07:14PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

A. Jones is a 40-45pt winger who works the 2nd PP unit vs Tanguay who is now just a 50pt winger who needed primo zone draws and 1st unit PP time with a HOFer to put those numbers up.

B. Sarich was a fringe NHL D-man for a terrible team (ours), while O'Brien is good enough to a fringe NHL D-man for better teams (Vcr etc.). and is younger.

So, to recap, we got younger, cheaper and kept our skill level at worst the same and probably improved it.

The only suggestion you have made so far is that Feaster should have made some sort of unicorn style trade using Tanguay for a top 4 pick.

Ride that Unicorn Jeff, ride it hard.

First of all, I'm not the same guy who said Tanguay could get the Flames into the top 4, so get your head out of your butt.

A. When is the last time David Jones put up 45 points? 2011, when he had a shooting percentage of 17.6 in 77 games. That same year, Jones played against middling competition and had a rel corsi of -3.6, which suggests he's not a guy who's going to outshoot the competition. He can get points if he gets PP time, and gets lucky. That's slightly worse than Tanguay, who can pick up points because he's a high percentage shooter, not a fluke.

B. O'Brien was last a fringe NHLer for a good team in Vancouver in the 2010 season. He'll now be playing in CGY in the 2014 season. 4 years older, 4 years slower, yadda yadda yadda. Not to mention the Flames replaced an old slow press box player with a younger, slow, player who will spend alot of time in the press box when he starts taking bonehead penalties and begins making huge defensive mistakes, cause hey, that's his game. The guy had 60 PIMs this year in just 28 games, but hey, he can fight, so he must be valuable.

At best, this is a lateral move. Completely MEH

But to you, it's another outstanding move by your pal Feaster. Keep drinking the kool aid Bsen, it'll get you far.

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#65 SmellOfVictory
June 27 2013, 07:16PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

Yeah, obviously Florida and Colorado were just itching to pick up an aging skill winger with no visible defensive abilities or pulse for their top pick.

Seriously, moving up using Tanguay was never going to happen.

If there is good news out of this outside of the fact that both players we got back are better/younger than what we gave up, is that there is clearly no barrier to Feaster and Colorado making a trade because of the ROR signing.

So there is still a chance we could move up to #1....

Didn't even have to be a move-up scenario. I'd have liked even a 2nd rounder or something. Just not freaking Jones, who is one of the most useless forwards the Avs have.

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#66 Jeff Lebowski
June 27 2013, 07:21PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

I know this is hard for you, but Tanguay is not an asset in demand - by anyone, and certainly not by any team drafting in the top 4.

How much of a non-entity was he? We were looking at buying him out. So yeah, keep the dream alive that somehow Tanguay was going to get us a top 4 pick.

We got younger, cheaper, and more talented in this deal. Pure win. No downside.

How do you have such inside information about who Calgary was going to buy out and what trade value Tanguay has? Are you Craig Conroy?

Feaster said 10 days ago Calgary had no buy out plans. If Tanguay was not in demand, do you think Colorado made this deal to get Sarich?

Why are you fixating on Tanguay (alone) netting a top 4 pick? Use him and any other assets to move up. If he doesn't factor to move up then use him to get picks or prospects. Use him at the trade deadline..

Again, the point you aren't addressing is did this return help the rebuild? Calgary needs picks and prospects. Use your assets to obtain those things. If you want to get younger, really get younger. Calgary isn't going to make the playoffs anytime soon, so why bother with a hockey trade?

Why not get 22-23 yo prospects? Why not get draft picks? Why settle for a 3 goal, 28 year old guy who isn't going to get better (and it's laughable you think he's a 40-45pt on Calgary).

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#67 BurningSensation
June 27 2013, 07:26PM
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joe wrote:

First of all, I'm not the same guy who said Tanguay could get the Flames into the top 4, so get your head out of your butt.

A. When is the last time David Jones put up 45 points? 2011, when he had a shooting percentage of 17.6 in 77 games. That same year, Jones played against middling competition and had a rel corsi of -3.6, which suggests he's not a guy who's going to outshoot the competition. He can get points if he gets PP time, and gets lucky. That's slightly worse than Tanguay, who can pick up points because he's a high percentage shooter, not a fluke.

B. O'Brien was last a fringe NHLer for a good team in Vancouver in the 2010 season. He'll now be playing in CGY in the 2014 season. 4 years older, 4 years slower, yadda yadda yadda. Not to mention the Flames replaced an old slow press box player with a younger, slow, player who will spend alot of time in the press box when he starts taking bonehead penalties and begins making huge defensive mistakes, cause hey, that's his game. The guy had 60 PIMs this year in just 28 games, but hey, he can fight, so he must be valuable.

At best, this is a lateral move. Completely MEH

But to you, it's another outstanding move by your pal Feaster. Keep drinking the kool aid Bsen, it'll get you far.

Yeah sorry Joe, I got your lousy arguments mixed up with someone else's. My bad.

If by 'lateral move' you mean, got younger, grittier and cheaper, sure, it's a 'lateral' move.

This does highlight what I see as an ongoing problem of perception by Flames fans, that somehow our GM is supposed to move out garbage and get gold in return. I'm looking forward to Feaster hitting a home-run at the draft, or fleecing someone in a trade, but until then he should make as many of these 'lateral' moves that get us younger, cheaper, etc. as he can.

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#68 Scary Gary
June 27 2013, 07:27PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

I'm a little surprised this deal isn't being better received. If Feaster had moved out a 3rd line winger with 20 goal ability and a late 20's bottom pair D-man on a reasonable contract for an over 30 winger with declining skills and attitude, and an over 30 D-man with marginal utility to actually play the game we'd be burning down what is left of the Saddledome.

Agreed, we still need roster players to fill the line-up, we can't do that this year with picks. That is unless you grab second rounders to stockpile for other teams RFAs, then I'm in favour.

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#69 BurningSensation
June 27 2013, 07:34PM
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Jeff Lebowski wrote:

How do you have such inside information about who Calgary was going to buy out and what trade value Tanguay has? Are you Craig Conroy?

Feaster said 10 days ago Calgary had no buy out plans. If Tanguay was not in demand, do you think Colorado made this deal to get Sarich?

Why are you fixating on Tanguay (alone) netting a top 4 pick? Use him and any other assets to move up. If he doesn't factor to move up then use him to get picks or prospects. Use him at the trade deadline..

Again, the point you aren't addressing is did this return help the rebuild? Calgary needs picks and prospects. Use your assets to obtain those things. If you want to get younger, really get younger. Calgary isn't going to make the playoffs anytime soon, so why bother with a hockey trade?

Why not get 22-23 yo prospects? Why not get draft picks? Why settle for a 3 goal, 28 year old guy who isn't going to get better (and it's laughable you think he's a 40-45pt on Calgary).

Sure, Tanguay was 'in demand' but that doesn't mean we were going to get anything better than Jones for him.

Does this help our rebuild? Absolutely. Rebuilding a team requires several concurrent steps;

- move out older players - move out players who don't want to be part of a rebuild - move out bad contracts - create cap space - acquire younger assets and picks - retain some level of veteran presence to shield the kids/prospects, and to keep a losing culture at bay

So, we ditched two older players (one of who can't play) and got back useful vets who are collectively cheaper and inarguably grittier and harder to play against (we also likely added 10-15 goals at the expense of some 2nd assists). The two departing players were cancers who didn't want to be here. The incoming guys will get a chance to play more.

Would I have preferred Malkin? Yes. Or Couturier? For sure. Or even 2nd rnd picks? Absolutely. Is there any indication that any of those items were ever available?

Nope.

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#70 ?
June 27 2013, 07:37PM
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ChinookArch wrote:

Younger - yes. Cheaper - yes. More talented - no. In the end, Calgary got grittier and bigger, so yes overall I think it's a win.

How did the Flames get cheaper? Doesn't Jones make more money than Tanguay, and aren't the Sarich and SOB contracts the same, except O'Briens got the extra year?

Is Murray Edwards gonna be paying less real dollars to Jones and SOB than he did to Tangs and Sarich?

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#71 FireOnIce
June 27 2013, 07:39PM
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Scary Gary wrote:

Agreed, we still need roster players to fill the line-up, we can't do that this year with picks. That is unless you grab second rounders to stockpile for other teams RFAs, then I'm in favour.

IIRC, you can't offer sheet RFAs with other people's picks. IE Calgary couldn't trade for Colorado's second rounder and then use that as compensation to STL for signing Pietrangelo to an offer sheet. Has to be their own pick.

That's why CGY couldn't sign PK Subban to an offer sheet last summer, because the second rounder(s) they had were not their own.

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#72 Gmac84
June 27 2013, 07:41PM
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While this is pretty much a lateral move by the Flames, I like it. They get someone with size who can play a little. You can't ask for more out of a third line guy. Also I don't think it's possible for O'brien to do LESS than Sarich, so that's at least a wash.

As much as I kind of hoped Tangs would have netted something more substantial (as part of a package) the reality is that he's an oft injured, one dimensional, ageing player, and I think the Flames made out okay in this one.

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#73 please cancel acct
June 27 2013, 07:49PM
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Last year Feaster and company were all about skill/IQ/character/and how the size of the player would not sway them in the draft or with trades.

This year after Hartely (MR black and white)arrived, the emphasis is now to get big and nasty.

Feaster has become a poor version of Daryl.

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#74 Jeff Lebowski
June 27 2013, 07:53PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

Sure, Tanguay was 'in demand' but that doesn't mean we were going to get anything better than Jones for him.

Does this help our rebuild? Absolutely. Rebuilding a team requires several concurrent steps;

- move out older players - move out players who don't want to be part of a rebuild - move out bad contracts - create cap space - acquire younger assets and picks - retain some level of veteran presence to shield the kids/prospects, and to keep a losing culture at bay

So, we ditched two older players (one of who can't play) and got back useful vets who are collectively cheaper and inarguably grittier and harder to play against (we also likely added 10-15 goals at the expense of some 2nd assists). The two departing players were cancers who didn't want to be here. The incoming guys will get a chance to play more.

Would I have preferred Malkin? Yes. Or Couturier? For sure. Or even 2nd rnd picks? Absolutely. Is there any indication that any of those items were ever available?

Nope.

So Tanguay went from not in demand by anyone to yes he clearly was. Check.

'Yes he was in demand but it doesn't mean getting better than Jones'. You haven't given anything concrete to support that. Just your own feelings.

Useful vets? Hahaha.

What are you even talking about with the Malkin, Couturier thing? Weird.

You ask if any indication exists for arguments counter to yours to justify a position but then make claims without any indication/evidence (demand for Tanguay) yourself. Again, weird.

Yup.

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#75 Scary Gary
June 27 2013, 07:55PM
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FireOnIce wrote:

IIRC, you can't offer sheet RFAs with other people's picks. IE Calgary couldn't trade for Colorado's second rounder and then use that as compensation to STL for signing Pietrangelo to an offer sheet. Has to be their own pick.

That's why CGY couldn't sign PK Subban to an offer sheet last summer, because the second rounder(s) they had were not their own.

Fair enough. So we shell game our second round pick for an RFA and select from the second round ourselves using someone else's in its place via trade.

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#76 Parallex
June 27 2013, 08:04PM
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Justin Azevedo wrote:

o'brien and jones are both crap underlying numbers-wise. the team got no better, but no worse as well.

Actually underlaying numbers wise the team has improved, the guys we picked up have better numbers then the guys we shipped out. If you think they're both crap then they're crap of the less stinky variety then what was here.

I'm fine with the trade (more indifferent actually) I think it makes the team better but not significantly so.

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#77 Ed Ward
June 27 2013, 08:04PM
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Scary Gary wrote:

Fair enough. So we shell game our second round pick for an RFA and select from the second round ourselves using someone else's in its place via trade.

We don't have a 2nd rounder. Traded it to MTL in the Cammy deal.

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#78 BurningSensation
June 27 2013, 08:09PM
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Jeff Lebowski wrote:

So Tanguay went from not in demand by anyone to yes he clearly was. Check.

'Yes he was in demand but it doesn't mean getting better than Jones'. You haven't given anything concrete to support that. Just your own feelings.

Useful vets? Hahaha.

What are you even talking about with the Malkin, Couturier thing? Weird.

You ask if any indication exists for arguments counter to yours to justify a position but then make claims without any indication/evidence (demand for Tanguay) yourself. Again, weird.

Yup.

It isn't clear that Colorado wanted Tanguay, or just hated Jones' contract so much they were willing to take Tanguay in return.

There may not be anything more than feelings to support the notion that Jones+SOB were the best Tanguay could bring back, but I haven't heard any argument that there was anything else available that was better. Sure I would love a top end pic, a #1 center, or even free beer for the rest of my life, but that doesn't mean they were available in trade.

Jones and SOB fall into the category of 'useful vets'. They won't drive possession like Crosby, but they fill useful roles on the team. Somehow this is amusing to you?

My point with Malkin and Couturier, etc. is that while we might wish we could have dealt for them, they were not available.

So, what exactly is your contention regarding the Tanguay trade? That it didn't make us younger? Didn't bring back players who fill useful roles? Or is it just whining that your unicorn hasn't arrived yet?

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#79 ?
June 27 2013, 08:12PM
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Why is everyone saying the Flames got cheaper? The SOB and Sarich contracts are the same cap hit, and Jones is more expensive than Tanguay. Am I missing something?

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#80 ChinookArch
June 27 2013, 08:25PM
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@?

You are not, it was my mistake. I do believe we got better value in spite of paying a bit more. O'Brien should play more than Sarich did in the last 2 seasons, and I expect he'll supplant Butler and Smith for the #6 slot. I really didn't not like the idea of paying Sarich $2M to ride pine, so good riddance. That's where an inexperienced rookie ought to be. Jones is 5 years younger and (in my estimation at least) has more gas in the tank, than Tanguay so another year at $4M is fine by me.

This may have been the best trade available, it may not have been. At the end of the day, I don't mind a fair trade, which is what this appears to be.

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#81 Jeff Lebowski
June 27 2013, 08:25PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

It isn't clear that Colorado wanted Tanguay, or just hated Jones' contract so much they were willing to take Tanguay in return.

There may not be anything more than feelings to support the notion that Jones+SOB were the best Tanguay could bring back, but I haven't heard any argument that there was anything else available that was better. Sure I would love a top end pic, a #1 center, or even free beer for the rest of my life, but that doesn't mean they were available in trade.

Jones and SOB fall into the category of 'useful vets'. They won't drive possession like Crosby, but they fill useful roles on the team. Somehow this is amusing to you?

My point with Malkin and Couturier, etc. is that while we might wish we could have dealt for them, they were not available.

So, what exactly is your contention regarding the Tanguay trade? That it didn't make us younger? Didn't bring back players who fill useful roles? Or is it just whining that your unicorn hasn't arrived yet?

The contention is that the return was not conducive to the stated goal of rebuilding. Calgary should be trying to acquire draft picks and prospects not useless players in hockey deals.

The problem that arose came in discussing this with you. The way you argue is weird-there is no logic to follow, you make statements like 'was not in demand by anyone- then yes he was in demand etc.

Again, the Malkin thing is weird perhaps you again confused a post from someone else to me. I've never mentioned those guys. You aren't one for attention to details I suppose.

Anyway I could go on but it's like arguing with my girlfriend-no sense or rational/logical consistency in your comments .

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#82 RexLibris
June 27 2013, 08:33PM
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I like how it only took about 70-some odd comments for O'Brien to become shortened to SOB.

This is great.

The Oilers had POS (Patrick O'Sullivan) and fans relished the cathartic nature of calling it out. There is some fan-comment gold waiting to happen here with O'Brien. Looking forward to it.

On the Cammalleri front, if the Flames retained some salary I could see someone like New York taking him for a 2nd round pick. Although given the buyouts and Lundqvist contract negotiations I'd be very surprised to see how they could fit that all together.

I'd be worried about Feaster pulling a Richards for Cammalleri deal. Not saying it'll happen, but maybe the Rangers aren't a good trading partner for the Flames right now.

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#83 Bean-counting cowboy
June 27 2013, 08:33PM
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I have heard a lot of talk about trading Cammy next. If we do, Jones then becomes our highest paid forward tied with Hudler (two third liners). Speaks volumes of the dearth of high end talent on this roster!

Assuming Backlund and Brodie re-up for the same cap hit as a departing Kipper (combined). The Flames would be sitting at a cap hit of around 40 million - 4 million under the floor (assuming a Cammy trade brings back no salary, only futures). We can assume a Ramo contract eats a good portion of that up, but I have no problem running with a floor team next year. I think we should eat some of Cammy's salary to net a greater return at the draft given our cap flexibility.

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#84 BurningSensation
June 27 2013, 08:38PM
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@Jeff Lebowski

"The contention is that the return was not conducive to the stated goal of rebuilding. Calgary should be trying to acquire draft picks and prospects not useless players in hockey deals."

Rebuilding teams need to get younger, right? We just dropped 9 years.

Rebuilding teams want players with better underlying stats than those they give up, right? Both of the players we received have better advanced stats than those we gave up.

Rebuilding teams need useful vets who can actually play the game, right? We just landed a 2 for 1 deal in that regard (Sarich is not a useful vet).

Yes, I would have preferred a golden prospect, or draft pick (or Malkin, etc.) for Tanguay, but, and this is the key, there is ZERO evidence that any of those things were ever on offer for Tanguay.

So, 'yes', this helps our rebuild.

Do I need to use smaller words for you?

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#85 Burnward
June 27 2013, 08:51PM
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By moving Tanguay, it also opens up a top-six slot for either Hudler or SVEN. We have to put those guys In a position to succeed. Neither needs to be playing a shut-down role on the third line or, in SVEN's case, languishing with plugs on the fourth.

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#86 Burnward
June 27 2013, 08:52PM
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And David Jones is actually pretty good at hockey, by the way. Or so my eyes tell me anyhow.

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#87 If Only HIs Name Was Olli Postandin
June 27 2013, 08:57PM
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Meh. This deal is purely lateral. We end up eating 500k more in cap space two out of three years, and 2.5 mil more next year.

Jones is over-paid by at least 1 million and does not drive possession against top-line forwards. But then again, he shouldn`t be playing against top lines. Then again, Colorado didn`t have many options. Hopefully, against 2nd and 3rd line comp, he will fare better.

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#88 Kevin R
June 27 2013, 08:59PM
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Jeff Lebowski wrote:

The contention is that the return was not conducive to the stated goal of rebuilding. Calgary should be trying to acquire draft picks and prospects not useless players in hockey deals.

The problem that arose came in discussing this with you. The way you argue is weird-there is no logic to follow, you make statements like 'was not in demand by anyone- then yes he was in demand etc.

Again, the Malkin thing is weird perhaps you again confused a post from someone else to me. I've never mentioned those guys. You aren't one for attention to details I suppose.

Anyway I could go on but it's like arguing with my girlfriend-no sense or rational/logical consistency in your comments .

Jeff let it go. Sarich & Tanguay would not have been good for our rebuild. They both wanted out. Jones & SOB well be able to play next year & they both will have the opportunity to prove something with a new team. There was no rainbow deal we passed on for Tanguay. He failed miserably in Montreal & Tampa before he played for next to nothing in a prove it 1 year deal back in Calgary. There was no value in Tanguay out there, no one wanted a 3.5 mill cap hit for 3 more years on a declining soft but talented forward. Zippo. Sarich couldn't even be moved for a 5th rounder at the trade deadline, I think Colorado had to eat him for us to take the deal. Jones was the target. Give the kid a chance. He scored 20+ goals the previous 2 seasons. Give him a chance. You can bitch about him next March if he craps the bed.

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#89 Clyde
June 27 2013, 09:01PM
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Pretty underwhelming trade. I wish we were at least getting some picks even if only 3rd round or worse in this type of deal.

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#90 clyde
June 27 2013, 09:06PM
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joe wrote:

First of all, I'm not the same guy who said Tanguay could get the Flames into the top 4, so get your head out of your butt.

A. When is the last time David Jones put up 45 points? 2011, when he had a shooting percentage of 17.6 in 77 games. That same year, Jones played against middling competition and had a rel corsi of -3.6, which suggests he's not a guy who's going to outshoot the competition. He can get points if he gets PP time, and gets lucky. That's slightly worse than Tanguay, who can pick up points because he's a high percentage shooter, not a fluke.

B. O'Brien was last a fringe NHLer for a good team in Vancouver in the 2010 season. He'll now be playing in CGY in the 2014 season. 4 years older, 4 years slower, yadda yadda yadda. Not to mention the Flames replaced an old slow press box player with a younger, slow, player who will spend alot of time in the press box when he starts taking bonehead penalties and begins making huge defensive mistakes, cause hey, that's his game. The guy had 60 PIMs this year in just 28 games, but hey, he can fight, so he must be valuable.

At best, this is a lateral move. Completely MEH

But to you, it's another outstanding move by your pal Feaster. Keep drinking the kool aid Bsen, it'll get you far.

I wouldn't even say he can fight.

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#91 chillout
June 27 2013, 09:14PM
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@Jeff Lebowski

haha I think your girlfriend probably feels that way about arguing with you. You can't rebuild a team if you have to forfeit all your games because you can't ice a minimum sized team. hell we could trade everybody over 27 for picks this year, that would be great right? We got significantly younger, maybe not as much skill as tanguay. In reality though jones will probably play better than tanguay because he wants to be here, alex did not. It was obvious at the end of the year he didn't give a crap about being on the ice. Pretty tough to trade a guy whose skill is fading, sulks big time and doesn't play.

So the trade is a win so go sulk somewhere mr. ten thousand picks/prospects for tanguay++++++++ and no roster players worth spit to put on the ice so we have a losing culture like edmonton.

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#92 Eddie Shore
June 27 2013, 09:20PM
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O'brien is worse than Sarich.

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#93 If Only HIs Name Was Olli Postandin
June 27 2013, 09:24PM
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Moreover, you can`t keep trading vets for picks because there is such a thing as a cap floor. We`re most likely gonna suck next year, regardless, but you do have to have warm bodies that add up to 44 million in cap dollars.

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#94 If Only HIs Name Was Olli Postandin
June 27 2013, 09:27PM
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At least I think the cap floor is 44 mil.

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#95 everton fc
June 27 2013, 09:37PM
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Baalzamon wrote:

Stempniak is a legitimate top 6 forward and is all of one year older than Jones. Jones in no way replaces Stempniak or makes him expendable.

Cammalleri might net a late first with the right trade partner, or if the Flames eat some of his cap hit.

I agree. I prefer Stempniak. Always supported Stempniak here.

Just speaking to the trade. I think Jones will replace Stempniak. Seeing Stempniak move up the 2nd line w/Glencross, I am okay with this. We may not make the playoffs with this lineup, but we'll at least be able to compete some evenings.

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#96 everton fc
June 27 2013, 09:40PM
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please cancel acct wrote:

Last year Feaster and company were all about skill/IQ/character/and how the size of the player would not sway them in the draft or with trades.

This year after Hartely (MR black and white)arrived, the emphasis is now to get big and nasty.

Feaster has become a poor version of Daryl.

Feaster's a lawyer. He'll say what he needs to say.

Many times he lacks the intellectual honesty he so often sells to the press.

Which is why I wish we had a different GM. Alas....

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#97 everton fc
June 27 2013, 09:42PM
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Eddie Shore wrote:

O'brien is worse than Sarich.

I actually like O'Brien. But I also agree with this.

O'Brien may not want to drop the mitts like a true goon. And he isn't a true goon. But that's what he'll be asked to do here, sometimes.

He's a better scrapper than Jackman, most nights. Maybe! I don't mind O'Brien and Jackman. But both are expansion team roster players. And we got pushed around a lot, last season. O'Brien will make sure other teams' pests know he's on the ice. I can live with that for one season. Of course, O'Brien will lose his share of scraps, like Jackman.

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#98 Kurt
June 27 2013, 09:43PM
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I started out not thinking this trade was too much to worry about. Meh. Oh well, who cares... But the more I think about it.... WTF!

If this trade is a glimpse into Feaster's plan... well I don't even know what to say.

The thing that bothers me is the length of the contracts we got back. I couldn't care less if Jones made $10mil and was a complete piece of trash, if his contract had 1 year left. But why do we want to move out assets for other long term boat anchor contracts.

At this point we should be acquiring prospects, picks and 'bridge players' to sustain an NHL calibre team while the kids develop WITHOUT getting locked in to bad contracts.

I'd have rather seen Tanguay moved out for a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Or anything. Or just bought out.

People are defending this as a 'lateral move'. Can someone explain to me what the heck's the point of lateral moves at ground zero of a rebuild? I suppose if Tanguay was considered a cancer on the team.... But like I said I'd rather move back than lateral. If we had got a prospect or pick in return, no matter how low it was you could justify this move as part of a logical rebuild. But what the F does a lateral move prove?

If Feaster's plan is to get out of this mess by a series of lateral moves where we 'get younger' or 'get better' in impossible to measure tiny increments we should be good in about 247 years.

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#99 BurningSensation
June 27 2013, 09:46PM
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Eddie Shore wrote:

O'brien is worse than Sarich.

By what yardstick? SOB's underlying stats aren't good, but they are still better than Sarich's healthy scratch.

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#100 Parallex
June 27 2013, 09:52PM
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Eddie Shore wrote:

O'brien is worse than Sarich.

Not according to very many statistical categories...

GP: Even Points: "Edge" O'Brien Average Time on Ice: Edge O'Brien Corsi On: Edge O'Brien Corsi Relative: Edge O'Brien Corsi Rel QoC: Edge O'Brien

There is pretty much no question O'Brien is better then Sarich. Now saying that somene is better then Sarich is hardly high praise but it's true.

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