On Brian Burke and the USA Hockey Team

Arik
January 01 2014 05:16PM

Image via Michael Dorausch and licensed under Creative Commons

 In case you missed it today, the USA Olympic Men's Hockey Team of Future Gold Medal Winners was announced after the Winter Classic. The selection itself has minimal relevance for the Flames, given that no Calgary player was even remotely in consideration (really, like Chris Butler's gonna go?), but as most readers here can imagine, Brian Burke played a fairly significant part in the selection process, and it's an ugly reminder of how adherence to a philosophy other than "take the best players" can be a poor method for team selection.

Burke's MO has been fairly consistent over the years: bigger, grittier, and- for lack of a better word- intenser. None of these are inherently bad, but at the exclusion of objectively better players, it becomes something of a drag. This is hardly a new subject of discussion here- Kent's posted about it rather recently, in fact. Still, there was always a bit of hope that Burke was smarter than he let on— that when push came to shove, he'd go with the objectively better player. While the acquisition of Westgarth was an indicator that that may not be true, it was Scott Burnside's article on the selection of the USA Olympic Men's Hockey team that dashed all hopes of that.

Bobby Ryan is a consistent 30 goal scorer. Goal scoring is something that is a bit of an issue on this team. So choosing to leave him off the team for some perceived lack of emotional depth would be nonsensical, right? Not if you're Brian Burke.

 

"I think we have to know what we're taking with Bobby," says Burke, who had him in Anaheim when the Ducks won the Stanley Cup in 2007.

 "He's a passive guy," Burke says. And over 82 games, yes, Saad and or Pacioretty might be more attractive than Ryan. But Ryan's a game-breaker.

"He is not intense. That word is not in his vocabulary," Burke says. "It's never going to be in his vocabulary. He can't spell intense."

 

There's certainly a debate to be had on whether Bobby Ryan is actually good enough for the team (his fancy stats are rather underwhelming), but the debate should hardly center around perceived emotional states.  In fact, let's just repeat the most inane part of that statement.

"He is not intense. That word is not in his vocabulary," Burke says. "It's never going to be in his vocabulary. He can't spell intense."

There's no critical analysis of skill here, at most it's mentioned that he's a bit of a slow skater, but that bit of knowledge is glossed over for Burke's non-analysis (it's mentioned at an earlier meeting that an unnamed person described Ryan's skating as "sleepy", but that's nearly as moronic as the intensity quote).

This is, unfortunately, a symptom of hockey culture— whether it's American or Canadian. There's a certain mysticism involved with picking the "right" players (read the entire section in the Burnside article on dreams— whether or not they were being hyperbolic, it's utterly absurd), regardless of actual skill level. Burke's argument against Keith Yandle is almost as bizarre as his screed against Bobby Ryan's lack of intensity.

Dean Lombardi- who watches a lot of Yandle on the rival Coyotes- makes a strong argument for him: that his coaches are more worried about Yandle on the ice than almost any other Phoenix player, and that he's the highest scoring American defenseman over the last four years. Burke's response is making a quip about Lombardi making a romantic speech a la Gone With the Wind and implying that Lombardi is simply wrong in his analysis. Again, there's no real analysis or discussion from Burke, just soundbites that back up his pre-formulated opinions.

This is the issue Burke is beginning to present. There's nothing wrong with a general preference for larger or grittier players, and there's nothing wrong with not liking Ryan or Yandle's game. The issue that we're left with is an insistence that worn platitudes about size or heart are more important than actual skill- that Burke's gut on a player is more indicative of quality than stats or tape. And that's not a good thing for the Flames going forward.

Of course, the most amazing takeaway from the Burnside article is that anyone still listens to Don Waddell.

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Arik works in Search and Rescue in the United States Coast Guard and is a former managing editor of the SBN Flames blog, Matchsticks and Gasoline.
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#1 bookofloob
January 01 2014, 05:52PM
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Our President of Hockey Operations and NotGM publicly said he regrets taking Bobby Ryan over Jack Johnson.

This is the guy who runs the Calgary Flames right now. That guy.

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#2 Thorop1
January 01 2014, 06:20PM
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Wow talk about "cherry-picking" your examples. I don't care if you love Burke or hate him but don't select and manipulate certain quotes to support your argument without considering the entire article. There are no less than three quotes in the article in which Burke acknowledges Ryan's skill! As for Yandle Burke says "he is carving teams right now". The dream comment, when taken in context is not weird at all...if you hate Burke that is fine, just don't manipulate his comments that is weak!

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#3 Clyde
January 01 2014, 07:19PM
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Justin Azevedo wrote:

no you pick the best team by picking the best players.

winning is based in skill and luck. you take more skill, you need less luck. doesn't mean that a skilled team always wins but it decreases the amount you have to rely on luck.

Maybe one day some group of general managers will pick on stats alone. Until then, I guess they will decide on a style/identity and pick the best players to fit into the making of a team. Take a look at some of the other hockey people in that article who ALL left Ryan off the team. Why put it all on Burke?

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#4 Clyde
January 01 2014, 07:00PM
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Justin Azevedo wrote:

yeah because at this level having guys that score more goals over guys that score less goals is a bad thing

c'mon man

Justin, You pick the best team and that involves having guys who can play roles. Check out the most successful Canadian teams and you will find some interesting selections and some interesting omissions. Try 1984, 86, 91 Canada cup as well as 02, 10 Olympic team. Some guys just cannot play outside a top 6 role. You need a certain make up to be able to bring energy and positive results while only getting 6-10 minutes of ice. C'mon man, you know that from your playing days

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#6 TRAV
January 01 2014, 11:40PM
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Arik wrote:

Haha what? Have you even looked at Edmonton's roster? The issue is not that they have too many skill guys.

Perhaps reread my comment. I suggested that the Oilers had too many "same skilled" players. This is quite different from having too many skilled guys. The key part here is the word same. I am suggesting that a team needs players with a variety of skills. I want all of my players to be highly skilled but I do not want them to all be skilled in the same area.

I appreciate that you don't subscribe to this notion and believe that it is a poor exemplar by your "HaHA What" response. Nonetheless I am pleased that my post brought some laughter to your day.

And yes, in response to your question, I have looked at their roster. I am sorry that my post left this in doubt.

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#7 gingersnapchat
January 02 2014, 12:37AM
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I read the ESPN article, and this is nothing but out-of-context click bait. He's not saying there's no place for skill on his team, he's saying there's no place for a slow player who can't defend on a team that already has Kane, Parise, Kessel, etc. Never mind that everyone else on the committee, including the GMs from 4 of the last 5 cup winners, came to the same conclusion. Here's some of his other quotes on Ryan:

""He's been there," Burke points out. Yes, he was just OK in Vancouver, "but he won't be intimidated,""

"If he's not going to be put in a role in which he can score an important goal, use his skills as a sniper, he shouldn't go, Burke says."

"Pacioretty and Saad are both better 60-minute players, Burke says, "But neither can do what Bobby can do.""

"As for Ryan, Burke goes back to Lombardi's earlier point about ignoring the top American scorer at his position and what kind of dangers there are in leaving Ryan off the squad."

And just for fun, here's some quotes to back up the narrative that he's always plotting to be in charge and impose his rule:

"Not present ... the GM of the 2010 team, Brian Burke, who sits out the initial meeting, later telling ESPN.com that he purposefully avoided it because he wanted this to be Poile's meeting"

"If the group were to decide, it would be Wheeler and Saad, although Burke brings up the point that the coaches really like Oshie ... Given that, Burke would vote Wheeler and Oshie"

As to his comments on Yandle, do you honestly believe that the only contribution he made to the discussion was a joke? ESPN published an article for entertainment, not a transcript.

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#8 Clyde
January 01 2014, 07:47PM
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bookofloob wrote:

Canada went for a "players filling roles" style roster in 2006, and it ended up having guys like Kris Draper on the team.

There's nothing wrong with Kris Draper, but he's not the guy you want on the ice when the other team is deploying an all star arsenal and you can't match PvP. You take the best players. They put Draper on a line with Iginla and Mario. That is lunacy.

This sort of "identity" is not bad, but the identity I'd want for my team is "well we took the best players". They're the best, does anyone understand how this sounds? The best is the best

They actually pick guys to play roles everytime. 2006 didn't work out. 84, 87, 91, 02, 10 did.

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#9 clyde
January 01 2014, 08:09PM
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Arik wrote:

Because they're not making inane statements about intensity? Did you even read the damn article?

No need to throw a temper tantrum. You find it inane because you don't understand what he was getting at. I get that.

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#10 Justin Azevedo
January 01 2014, 07:04PM
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@Clyde

no you pick the best team by picking the best players.

winning is based in skill and luck. you take more skill, you need less luck. doesn't mean that a skilled team always wins but it decreases the amount you have to rely on luck.

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#11 Clyde
January 01 2014, 07:49PM
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Arik wrote:

You mean like Don Waddell? One of the worst GMs in the history of the NHL?

Yes, why not put it on him? Or Stan Bowman or dale tallon or David poile, etc? They all had input and Poile is running the show.

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#12 the forgotten man
January 02 2014, 12:47AM
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Long, long time Flames Fan...remember my dad and grandfather taking me to my first Flames games back in 1981 seeing Guy Chouinard pot a nice goal and Kevin LaVallee roofing a slapshot into the upper deck of the Corral. The 80s were fun, great hockey as a Flames Fan...obviously the Club has felt adrift since the early 90s. Some can be blamed on the economics of the Game, but my general sense over the years is that the Club has lacked focus in a bigger context. Even when the economics sucked for free agency, you would think the Club would have doubled down on its commitment to Scouting to compensate for the prior? Instead, the 90s and 2000s produced some of the worst drafting of the entire league. There has been a revolving door of GMs and coaches, each bringing their unique outlook on the a Game, but no sense of continuity...one always gets the impression that the Club's Strategic Plan is hashed out every few years on the back of a cocktail napkin. This brings me to Arik's article regarding Burke. I am sure Burke will produce, in the short term, a competitive club, but I have my reservations on the longevity and sustainability of his approach to the a Club. Essentially already having suffered for some 25 years to date cheering for the Flames, I am always looking long ball, hence I am content to suck/indirectly tank for a couple more seasons to put the Club in the best position to pick up 3-4 more legit prospects. With some exciting young talent that one can typically underpay til UFA status, the Flames can then overpay for some veteran free agents to round out the Club and push for a Cup. Winning Cups is all about timing and aligning your resources for that 3-4 season window most Clubs have before reloading...I would rather hear Burke preaching this to the choir than grit chart/truculence. Burke strikes me as rushed, when really what is needed is patience. He strikes me as a talker, when what the club needs is a deliberate listener...wasn't Fletcher's nickname the 'Silver Fox'? He wasn't Burkean bellicose or prone to kabuki/zany Feasterisms...quiet, deliberate with his words and a composed demeanour.

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#13 Clyde
January 01 2014, 06:41PM
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Arik wrote:

Fun fact! Burke's dream comment was made as a sarcastic retort to Poile's, who made his seemingly in earnest. Both are remarkably dumb.

Moreover, this wasn't about Burke not acknowleding Ryan's skill, it's about the fact that he thinks a "lack of intensity" is somehow more telling about a player than the actual skill.

Also as for Yandle, that compliment doesn't take away from the moronic criticisms.

They all felt if Ryan was not a top 6 player, he didn't bring much else to the table and is a below avg skater. His lack of intensity comment was made to reinforce that Ryan doesn't have the mental make up to be a checker/energy guy or penalty killer so unless he nailed down a scoring role, avoid him

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#14 Justin Azevedo
January 01 2014, 06:52PM
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@Clyde

yeah because at this level having guys that score more goals over guys that score less goals is a bad thing

c'mon man

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#15 BurningSensation
January 01 2014, 06:55PM
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Oshie and Stastny over Bobby Ryan?

Honestly, this mystifies me. I get that there are concerns with Ryan's skating on the big ice (I have similar concerns about Tavares), but that only explains taking Oshie, because Stastny is definitely not a better skater than Ryan.

Well, the Brian Burke era is now on for the Flames.

C'thullu help us all.

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#16 the-wolf
January 02 2014, 08:48AM
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RexLibris wrote:

Never!

Ha, seriously though, of course I do. Everyone does. But were I in charge of selecting a National Olympic Team I might have prepared more compelling arguments for my decisions that those offered by Burke.

On another note, quantifying Best Player - thank you.

This is a massive annoyance for me. The standard Best Player Available cliches that get thrown around every draft year drive me nuts. Who determines which is the best player? What is the criteria? Fans who simply say "oh, we should just take the best player available" are intellectually checking out of the conversation.

The term "Best" is already somewhat subjective when assessing talent and incredibly so when discussing potential.

Exactly. Define BPA. Should Kovalev have been on every Russian entry the last 20 years? Based on talent, yes. But if you don't display that talent consistently or there's a chance you won't display it all, then why take take that player?

If BB knows Ryan and thinks he lacks drive/heart, whatever...how would that not come into play? Sure, you can say you can't quanitfy heart, but anyone on this forum who had to pick a team that was to be built around short term success and personally knew a player that you thought was lazy or dispassionate wouldn't put that player on the team either.

People who were so willing to be patient with Feaster and even defended him over something as horrific as the ROR debacle seem to have already made up their minds on a guy who has a better track record than Feaster and is yet to pull any real moves for the Flames.

Makes me think that the criticism is being centered solely around personal ideologies than anything of substance.

I too wish we could just transplant Detroit's management group over to Calgary, but that's not going to happen. Lets see what moves Burke makes for the Flames, including his GM hire, before convicting him. He's not the sole decision-maker on Team USA anyways, so frankly, I could care less what that team does.

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#17 RexLibris
January 01 2014, 09:24PM
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Hockey Canada left off Poirier and Nurse. Decided Paterson and Fucale would be good tournament goalies for the WJCs.

Burke wanted to take J. Johnson ahead of Ryan in '05.

There are dozens of numbskull decisions made by hockey executives in any nation's development program every time a selection process is carried out.

What I find interesting about Burke's comments and the Burnside article as it relates to the Flames is that Burke ended up listening to his scouts in Anaheim (who have a pretty impressive draft record).

Another item that stands out for me is that it reinforces the narrative that Burke will look past skill if it isn't accompanied by various other characteristics that have not been statistically proven to impact productivity.

As well, there is the perception from the article that Burke is an abrasive personality within the selection group, and this raises questions about his eventual hire for the GM position and that individual's executive autonomy in that role.

Either way, lots of grist for the Flames fan's anxiety mill.

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#18 Skuehler
January 01 2014, 10:50PM
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I sure hope one of the editors at FN circles the date where Brian Burke meets the same tenure mark that Feaster achieved. By BB's own impatient expectations, the organization should be much further along the rebuild at every stage throughout the org. He has more experience, blusters harder and has more authority so the results/expectations should be higher. I for one don't see it happening. I don't think sustained success comes from reactively swinging for the fences under the guidance of a larger than life leader. Hope I'm wrong. I think we're heading south for a while yet and there will be significant casualties along the way. The opportunity and resources are there to build a great team but we could get stuck trying too hard to be a good team.

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#19 Derzie
January 01 2014, 11:19PM
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The scary part is that there re really and truly people on this site thinking Brian Burke has a clue what he is doing. Really? Do you watch hockey? Are the Leafs the team you want? The 90s Ducks? I'm flabbergasted. I see a smart comment and then half are trashes. Oh my.

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#20 the forgotten man
January 01 2014, 05:59PM
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bookofloob wrote:

Our President of Hockey Operations and NotGM publicly said he regrets taking Bobby Ryan over Jack Johnson.

This is the guy who runs the Calgary Flames right now. That guy.

Yeah, that should be a fireable offense right there, along with showing up at a major press conference impersonating Nick Nolte post-drug/alcohol/ hooker binge..

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#21 Clyde
January 01 2014, 06:37PM
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Thorop1 wrote:

Wow talk about "cherry-picking" your examples. I don't care if you love Burke or hate him but don't select and manipulate certain quotes to support your argument without considering the entire article. There are no less than three quotes in the article in which Burke acknowledges Ryan's skill! As for Yandle Burke says "he is carving teams right now". The dream comment, when taken in context is not weird at all...if you hate Burke that is fine, just don't manipulate his comments that is weak!

I couldn't agree more. Seems to me that Burke put together a pretty decent team in 2010. Before the Olympics he was crucified for many of his choices. Going to bat for a 26 year old defenseman who has a history of strong international and playoff performance,as well as nhl playoff performance and who has been a captain for the USA more than once does not seem moronic in anyway either from a performance standpoint or loyalty standpoint. In the end, he didn't make it this time anyway

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#22 bookofloob
January 01 2014, 07:43PM
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Clyde wrote:

Maybe one day some group of general managers will pick on stats alone. Until then, I guess they will decide on a style/identity and pick the best players to fit into the making of a team. Take a look at some of the other hockey people in that article who ALL left Ryan off the team. Why put it all on Burke?

Canada went for a "players filling roles" style roster in 2006, and it ended up having guys like Kris Draper on the team.

There's nothing wrong with Kris Draper, but he's not the guy you want on the ice when the other team is deploying an all star arsenal and you can't match PvP. You take the best players. They put Draper on a line with Iginla and Mario. That is lunacy.

This sort of "identity" is not bad, but the identity I'd want for my team is "well we took the best players". They're the best, does anyone understand how this sounds? The best is the best

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#23 RexLibris
January 01 2014, 09:40PM
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Arik wrote:

You get me, Rex. You really do.

You complete me.

Wait. Is that the right response? I'm so bad at these...

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#24 44stampede
January 01 2014, 09:43PM
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RexLibris wrote:

Hockey Canada left off Poirier and Nurse. Decided Paterson and Fucale would be good tournament goalies for the WJCs.

Burke wanted to take J. Johnson ahead of Ryan in '05.

There are dozens of numbskull decisions made by hockey executives in any nation's development program every time a selection process is carried out.

What I find interesting about Burke's comments and the Burnside article as it relates to the Flames is that Burke ended up listening to his scouts in Anaheim (who have a pretty impressive draft record).

Another item that stands out for me is that it reinforces the narrative that Burke will look past skill if it isn't accompanied by various other characteristics that have not been statistically proven to impact productivity.

As well, there is the perception from the article that Burke is an abrasive personality within the selection group, and this raises questions about his eventual hire for the GM position and that individual's executive autonomy in that role.

Either way, lots of grist for the Flames fan's anxiety mill.

I don't understand how guys like Burke keep getting jobs. He just seems so universally disliked from those who deal with him. Maybe it is just a perception that comes across to the media and thus that is what we see. Maybe he is a great guy behind the scene but I just don't see it.

Whenever you throw people under the bus like he does, how do you gain trust?

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#25 ?
January 02 2014, 12:09AM
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""He is not intense. That word is not in his vocabulary," Burke says. "It's never going to be in his vocabulary. He can't spell intense."

Is Burke a psychologist or something?

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#26 jonahgo
January 02 2014, 08:07AM
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Clyde wrote:

Maybe one day some group of general managers will pick on stats alone. Until then, I guess they will decide on a style/identity and pick the best players to fit into the making of a team. Take a look at some of the other hockey people in that article who ALL left Ryan off the team. Why put it all on Burke?

Look at Chicago. They put young, skilled guys in bottom six, checking roles last year (Frolik and Kruger), and that worked out pretty well for them. Just because the majority of GMs think that you need 'grit' above all else on your checking lines, doesn't make it logically sound.

The teams that reject the lazy, baseless assumptions of tradition are and will be the successful teams. This is why Chicago is the class of the NHL. This is why Toronto is not.

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#27 Kenta
January 02 2014, 08:15AM
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the forgotten man wrote:

Long, long time Flames Fan...remember my dad and grandfather taking me to my first Flames games back in 1981 seeing Guy Chouinard pot a nice goal and Kevin LaVallee roofing a slapshot into the upper deck of the Corral. The 80s were fun, great hockey as a Flames Fan...obviously the Club has felt adrift since the early 90s. Some can be blamed on the economics of the Game, but my general sense over the years is that the Club has lacked focus in a bigger context. Even when the economics sucked for free agency, you would think the Club would have doubled down on its commitment to Scouting to compensate for the prior? Instead, the 90s and 2000s produced some of the worst drafting of the entire league. There has been a revolving door of GMs and coaches, each bringing their unique outlook on the a Game, but no sense of continuity...one always gets the impression that the Club's Strategic Plan is hashed out every few years on the back of a cocktail napkin. This brings me to Arik's article regarding Burke. I am sure Burke will produce, in the short term, a competitive club, but I have my reservations on the longevity and sustainability of his approach to the a Club. Essentially already having suffered for some 25 years to date cheering for the Flames, I am always looking long ball, hence I am content to suck/indirectly tank for a couple more seasons to put the Club in the best position to pick up 3-4 more legit prospects. With some exciting young talent that one can typically underpay til UFA status, the Flames can then overpay for some veteran free agents to round out the Club and push for a Cup. Winning Cups is all about timing and aligning your resources for that 3-4 season window most Clubs have before reloading...I would rather hear Burke preaching this to the choir than grit chart/truculence. Burke strikes me as rushed, when really what is needed is patience. He strikes me as a talker, when what the club needs is a deliberate listener...wasn't Fletcher's nickname the 'Silver Fox'? He wasn't Burkean bellicose or prone to kabuki/zany Feasterisms...quiet, deliberate with his words and a composed demeanour.

Amen. I would also credit coach Badger Bob Johnson who also was quite vocal but always in a positive, upbeat manner and about the team, not himself (or his hair). He wasn't insecure nor did he feel the need to impress everyone with his superior intelligence/vocabulary (truculence indeed). A true gentleman who knew his craft - it is a shame that they don't seem to make them like that anymore.

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#28 FXO
January 01 2014, 05:52PM
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Every time I read of BB's way of thinking I am reminded of a interview with Guy Lefleur saw a while back. He mentioned how the Flyers were just a bunch or 'Bullies' and how the Canadiens showed how to win with skill, speed and finesse. (From '76 to '79) At times BB is accused of having the game pass him by. I dunno? Perhaps he looks at the Flyers, or some other intense, big, truculent team[s], and sees how they won 2 cups by being brutalist's and forgets the 24 of the Canadiens.

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#29 TRAV
January 01 2014, 07:30PM
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Justin Azevedo wrote:

no you pick the best team by picking the best players.

winning is based in skill and luck. you take more skill, you need less luck. doesn't mean that a skilled team always wins but it decreases the amount you have to rely on luck.

I agree totally. It must be added though that it takes a variety of skills to be a great team. Ask Edmonton how it works out when you take a group of "same skilled" forwards.

I don't know whether Ryan should be on the team or not. I do think that management is smart to consider the kind of team that wins these tournament. I don't think that you go down the nhl scoring list and select your top twelve scorers and ice them at forward. Clearly there are more factors than that. There is no question that scoring goals is a huge part of team success though...

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#31 clyde
January 01 2014, 08:05PM
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Arik wrote:

Out of curiousity, what the hell do you think Morrow contributed to the Canadian team in 2010? (Hint: it rhymes with "smabsolutely smothing")

Serious? We left off 3 of the NHL's Top 10 Scorers!

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#33 FlamesRule
January 01 2014, 09:39PM
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Looks to me that the FN writers have taken a NY resolution to bash Burke for no legitimate reason.

I'd rather have him running the show right now over pretty much anyone else. He's outlined his vision, taking charge and will have a positive impact on the future - that's leadership the Flames organization has lacked for years. I'm glad to be seeing it!

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#34 Burnward
January 01 2014, 10:20PM
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@RexLibris

"I don't specifically know how Burke gets GM jobs..."

You sure seem to think you have it figured out.

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#35 clyde
January 01 2014, 08:06PM
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bookofloob wrote:

They had one guy on the 2010 team I'd classify as a role player, and that was Brenden Morrow. Everyone else you could have made a case for qualifying as the best available

Serious? We left off 3 of the NHL's Top 10 Scorers!

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#37 smith
January 01 2014, 11:54PM
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Derzie wrote:

The scary part is that there re really and truly people on this site thinking Brian Burke has a clue what he is doing. Really? Do you watch hockey? Are the Leafs the team you want? The 90s Ducks? I'm flabbergasted. I see a smart comment and then half are trashes. Oh my.

Agreed completely. This is the guy who wants 2 or more dedicated face punchers on the team. Is there any other team in the league that has two dedicated face punchers?

I am scared he will get a collection of goons for the bottom six (while chasing out any skill), spend money on iffy free agents, find a good goalie and fight for a bottom playoff spot with the good drafting the flames have done in the last three years and their available cap room. Completely wasting a few years of pain for all of us fans.

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#38 the-wolf
January 02 2014, 08:05AM
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smith wrote:

Agreed completely. This is the guy who wants 2 or more dedicated face punchers on the team. Is there any other team in the league that has two dedicated face punchers?

I am scared he will get a collection of goons for the bottom six (while chasing out any skill), spend money on iffy free agents, find a good goalie and fight for a bottom playoff spot with the good drafting the flames have done in the last three years and their available cap room. Completely wasting a few years of pain for all of us fans.

@Derzie and Smith - and yet, he' shere to stay for the forseeable future. There's no point in getting worked up about moves he hasn't even made.

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#41 MichaelD
January 01 2014, 08:24PM
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bookofloob wrote:

They had one guy on the 2010 team I'd classify as a role player, and that was Brenden Morrow. Everyone else you could have made a case for qualifying as the best available

Bergeron?

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#42 ChinookArch
January 01 2014, 10:09PM
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Funny thing about cognitive dissonance, Brian Burke is in good company. It's uncomfortable when one's personal, strongly held beliefs are challenged.

I've often wondered how much group-think happens here at FN, but the adamant responses on both sides of this debate illustrates how varied the perspective are of the game is here.

Nice to see.

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#43 RexLibris
January 01 2014, 10:23PM
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@ChinookArch

I'm not arguing that Burke is the best or worst GM in the league.

My point is that I believe his reputation is a matter of perception ahead of record.

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#44 bookofloob
January 01 2014, 06:01PM
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@FXO

Well, I'm not going to go as far as to suggest that Burke looks at the Broad Street Bullies as a model for winning hockey games in 2014, but we're on the right track here

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#45 bookofloob
January 01 2014, 07:49PM
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They had one guy on the 2010 team I'd classify as a role player, and that was Brenden Morrow. Everyone else you could have made a case for qualifying as the best available

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#47 Burnward
January 01 2014, 10:00PM
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How do you quantify "best player"?

Seems as if that would differ from person to person.

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#48 Burnward
January 01 2014, 10:07PM
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@RexLibris

I'm sure you would never make a decision others would deem as a "numbskull" move.

Everyone views the game differently. Burke has his vision and a solid track record behind him. Let's just see what he actually does.

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#49 the-wolf
January 02 2014, 08:57AM
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@Kenta

I'd love to return to those days. Of course, it actually took Cliff a long time to find any real success. Frankly, nowadays, he would've been fired from the Flames org years before they ever moved to Calgary and that's part of the problem. There's no long term patience anymore. You either start producing within 2 or 3 years or you're gone, regardless of what you inherited.

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