Five things: A deadline day spectacular

Ryan Lambert
March 06 2014 09:11AM

5-five

1. The Flames' action, or lack thereof

So after all that, the Flames' big haul as they attempt to rebuild from years of mismanagement is what will probably end up being a mid-second- and late third-round pick, and the only guys they offloaded were Reto Berra and Lee Stempniak.

Let's start with the former of those deals, which shipped Berra, a 27-year-old goaltending "prospect" who was in way over his head in the NHL and should have no value whatsoever. Getting anything for him, let alone a pick that's likely to be in the 50s, is frankly not half bad. It's more than should have been expected.

The Stempniak trade, meanwhile, was about par for the course given what was being thrown around for far better players than him. He was never going to be worth more than a pick in the 90s, if we were being realistic.

But with that having been said, this is another catastrophe in a long line of trade-deadline catastrophes for the Calgary Flames. That's even if they end up re-signing Mike Cammalleri. This is a team that needs assets to restock the cupboard, not to re-up mediocre declining veterans. Of course, I don't know why anyone should be surprised; Brian Burke said just yesterday that his goal was for the Flames to be buyers at the deadline next year, which shows how ridiculous his view of things is, necessarily. Because let's say Calgary (miraculously) is in a playoff position around this time next season. To what end does the acquisition of rental players help this team in being competitive for the Stanley Cup? It doesn't. That's correct.

This is a team that — to borrow Jay Feaster's phrase — is still not being "intellectually honest" about the way in which it should approach what it has now acknowledged is a rebuild. Even now. Even after everything that's happened these last four years or more.

2. A big change in Vancouver

How weird is it to see a Western Canadian team realize less than one year into their likely descent into mediocrity that they needed to blow everything up?

Roberto Luongo was shipped, at long last, to Florida this week for a return that was underwhelming but understandable given That Contract. As I write this, before the deadline lands, Ryan Kesler is being shopped around and appears likely to be traded either now or in the summer, and Alex Edler might get a similar treatment. Mike Gillis reportedly might not have the authority to make any such trades (i.e. he is fired as hell the second the season ends) and John Tortorella may likewise be asked to pack his things after just one season in Vancouver.

This is responsible stuff from ownership, period. They saw the problem over these 50-something games and said they wouldn't stand for it, rather than trying to fruitlessly milk another playoff appearance or three out of a team so far past truly competing as to no longer be able to see it over the horizon. 

(I would listen to an argument, though, that not letting Gillis trade Kesler of his own volition today, if that's the case, is some level of interference from ownership. That's a generally loathsome proposition but if Murray Edwards had stepped in and said, "No more," to Jay Feaster after, say, the Iginla trade, then I think we all would have understood.)

The Flames and Oilers could really take a page out of their book, but maybe the Canucks saw what happened in their own division and just learned the hard lesson.

3. Hemsky finally gone

Speaking of the Oilers, I can't believe they finally traded Ales Hemsky after all this time. Of course, they traded him for a third- and fifth-round pick because that's all the market would bear for him, and they picked up half his salary, but still. Hemsky playing somewhere other than Edmonton will be a bizarre thing to see.

This is a great lesson for Brian Burke — or whomever ends up being the next Flames GM — to learn. The Oilers worked so, so hard to systematically devalue a guy who has proven that he can be a useful if often-injured offensive contributor on a garbage team (and boy did the local press ever chip in to help), so to then to get this kind of return for him should come as no surprise.

Another thing that should come as no surprise: If Hemsky starts ripping things up on a line with Kyle Turris in Ottawa; I'm not sure it's necessarily all that wise a move for Ottawa since they're not going to make the playoffs and should, instead, be looking to sell, but it's certainly low-risk given what they gave up to get him. Hemsky's old these days, yeah, and the likelihood they re-sign him this summer likewise appears quite low, but this too is a valuable lesson to learn.

4. St. Louis in New York

I really can't believe this was a thing that ended up happening. The Rangers paid through the nose to get him — and dumped a negotiations headache they didn't want to deal with this summer — but he's a huuuuuuuuuuge pickup for a team that's really ready to be a threat in the East, all things considered. 

It's unfortunate that the team traded the guy who's been the face of the franchise for the last decade (sorry Vinny) on the day the guy who's going to be the face of the franchise for the next decade returns from a horrific broken leg. But that's life. Especially when you're dealing with a baby like Martin St. Louis. Alain Vigneault better hope he doesn't look at good ol' Marty the wrong way, and Mats Zuccarello might want to start wearing platform shoes so the big ol' cockalorum doesn't get upset about no longer being the shortest guy on the team.

This really does make the Rangers pretty terrifying. St. Louis playing run-n-gun with Brad Richards again is going to be fun to watch. Just don't screw up any passes, Brad!

5. Something doesn't have anything to do with trades

When last we spoke of hotshot goaltending prospect Jon Gillies, it was to say that he had been hot garbage since the end of World Juniors. Fortunately, though, whatever was ailing him seems to have corrected itself, and the ship has absolutely been righted at this point.

After suffering loss after loss — and giving up large amounts of goals even in wins — Gillies has rounded back into form over the past three weeks while playing some fairly tough opponents. He gave up 24 goals in eight games from Jan. 7 to Feb. 11, and really looked pretty disinterested in doing it, going 2-5-1. But giving up three on 26 and losing to lowly UConn (one of the better teams in perhaps the worst conference in the country) seems to have scared him straight.

Since that loss, he's played Notre Dame, UMass Amherst, and Maine, and gone 4-1-1 with a .933 save percentage. Those four wins, by the way, were in a row, including a sweep at Maine, where the Black Bears had, previous to last weekend, lost just one game all season.

Very encouraging stuff from a kid many thought had checked out after World Juniors. He's likely to improve on that performance, too, because he basically got the Friars into third place in Hockey East by himself over the last few weeks. Providence scored just 15 goals in those six games to support him.

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Yer ol' buddy Lambert is handsome and great and everyone loves him. Also you can visit his regular blog at The Two-Line Pass or follow him on Twitter. Lucky you!
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#1 prendrefeu
March 06 2014, 11:12AM
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Can we trade Lambert to another fan nation site? There aren't trade deadlines for the Nation Network. Or are there?

At this point he may be worth, oh... maybe two hour's worth of traffic bandwidth and a $10CAD gift card to Tim Hortons.

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#2 Gussey
March 06 2014, 12:09PM
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For those who didn't read the article, here is a summary:

1) The Flames not trading Cammallari yesterday was a catastrophe. The ultimate package BURKE would of recieved would have accelerated the rebuild by years. But because Cammi is still a Flame, we will be bottom feeders for years to come. And the writer is very angry about this.

2) Vancouver is brilliant because they apparently "blew it up" yesterday by trading Luongo. The package they received for him will likely accelerate their rebuild for years. The author wishes he hoped for the canucks because they are awesome.

3) Hemsky was traded to Ottawa and will likely light it up in Ottawa. Cammi is our version of hemsky for Edmonton and Burke could learn a lesson about when to trade this type of player.

4) The rangers are awesome and st louis is an angry little man.

5) Something about Gillis

Concluded

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#3 cccsberg
March 06 2014, 11:17AM
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Ryan, Not sure what to make of your post. Lots of interesting stuff but a bit disjointed. Where to start...

1. "So after all that, the Flames' big haul as they attempt to rebuild from years of mismanagement is what will probably end up being a mid-second- and late third-round pick..." The Flames aren't attempting a rebuild, they are in the midst of one. Seems like you're pretty negative in the comments. Flames have actually been doing quite well in the rebuild department this past year. Looking at their whole system I can't think of anyone of the youngsters who hasn't improved this year from last. That's a system-wide upgrade which not only is great for the future, but has been fun to watch. If they can continue this trend things are definitely looking up.

2. "...this is another catastrophe in a long line of trade-deadline catastrophes for the Calgary Flames. That's even if they end up re-signing Mike Cammalleri. This is a team that needs assets to restock the cupboard, not to re-up mediocre declining veterans. Of course, I don't know why anyone should be surprised; Brian Burke said just yesterday that his goal was for the Flames to be buyers at the deadline next year, which shows how ridiculous his view of things is..." Far from a catastrophe I'd say the Flames did quite well yesterday. Got two excellent picks for players not part of the future (which IS restocking), and didn't make a stupid move to "get anything" for Cammalleri and others that are useful for the next few years. Calgary has been competitive this year in part BECAUSE they have a bunch of solid vets, and I'm fine with that going forward, just as long as we continue to sprinkle in the youth. Going ALL YOUTH is a recipe for disaster, and we only have to look up north to see that. Secondly you're misconstruing BB's words. He actually said he'd much rather be a buyer than a seller, and having that as a goal is a great thing, IMHO. This idea that a team should crap the bed year after year for picks (ref: Oilers) is a terrible way to go. For every success teams have had with a generational pick or three (i.e. Pittsburg, Chicago?) there's probable many where that wasn't the case. Top picks are no guarantee of success, (ref:Oilers, Gaudreau, Toews, Monahan.....) and embracing a losing culture and mentality is NOT the way to go.

3. "...This is responsible stuff from ownership, period. Hard to give creeds to Vancouver management over their current situation. Compare goalie situation last year to now, or how about supposedly going for a rebuild then kabooshing multiple Keslar scenarios at the last minute. Looks more like a team that doesn't know what they're doing.

4. "...As I write this, before the deadline lands, Ryan Kesler is being shopped around and appears likely to be traded..." Ryan, how about some consistency, please. You finished writing AFTER the deadline as you already have the Stempniak details which only came out ~15 minutes past the deadline, yet try to make the VCR management out as doing great even though at that time it was already clear Keslar wasn't traded... If you showed a bit more consistency (honesty) throughout the article it'd be easier to accept your points.

5. Hemsky, several good points throughout. They got him for low risk, could work. Not sure what we're to learn from your last point though...?

6. St Louis situation an interesting one. Not sure we have all the details as it appears he's been trying to get to NYR for a couple of years. I'd definitely not call hims baby... Let's see now, top scorer in the league last year, still excellent skills, and what a cheap contract... I'd be very disappointed too. Hard to argue too much against Team Canada choices because they did well, but still it's nice to be somewhere where you are appreciated. He's in his last few years and has little else to prove, now wanting to put his family first after all the years given to Tampa. Tampa got great value for him. Let's all move on.

7. Great points on Gillis. He had a step back at WJC's, either injury or just the results, but has come back better than ever. Over the long term that's great to see him face and overcome adversity. Something every kid needs to learn (e.g. Baertschi, Backlund...) and seems to be working for them all.

So, thanks for the article, generated lots of thought though i would like to see a more positive tone especially after overall team/system play this year. Guess you're the counter-balance to others seeing everything through rose-colored glasses though. All good...

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#4 Parallex
March 06 2014, 09:38AM
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I wouldn't be so fast in proclaiming that the Canucks have realized "they needed to blow everything up".

I mean what did they really do?... they traded away what is generally considered one of the worst contracts in the NHL (albeit attached to a pretty good player) That they've been trying to get rid of seemingly forever. I don't think you can make the leap that they're blowing anything up yet, The Sedins? Still There, Burrows? Still There, Kesler? Still There (for now), Edler? Still There.

I mean... it's possible that they have started what Sutter should have done before all the madness took over... they may have looked at the dearth of young NHL talent that's in it's near prime stage (21-25) and the abundance of talent on the wrong side of 30... but it's also possible that they just took the opportunity to rid themselves of a longterm headache and intend to just carry on with carrying on.

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#5 Bean-counting cowboy
March 06 2014, 10:08AM
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I would not be so giddy about St. Louis if I was a New York fan.

I personally don't get it. Do the Rangers think they are winning the cup this year? The guy is 38 years old!

That's a ton of assets to give up for a guy his age and given where the Rangers are in the standings. They could miss the playoffs!

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#6 SeanCharles
March 06 2014, 11:14AM
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I find it laughable that trading Schnieder for Bo Horvat and Luongo for a questionable goaltending prospect and a 3rd/4th line center is earning Vancouver praise..

They traded 2 starting goalies for below market value. They had one of the best tandems in the league and now...? If the Canucks made the Luongo trade at the draft and kept Schnieder I would applaud them but this is a joke.

You trade Schnieder because you don't like the offers for Luongo then you bench him for a huge game and trade him anyways (I get that Luongo wanted out but he wanted out long ago)..

They don't deserve any credit for trading Schnieder last draft now that Luongo is gone as well.

If that is good asset management in the eyes of some then I wonder how blind those some may be...

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#7 bilman
March 06 2014, 11:16AM
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Wow, I can't believe that words like "catastrophe" are being thrown around regarding the Cammy non-deal. The islanders' situation is a catastrophe. I also don't think it's guaranteed that he won't re-sign here. He's had a bad year, and any contending team that he would want to go to won't have cap space and be willing to pay him what he wants. I also disagree with the mentality of selling everything possible, being as bad as possible, getting as many picks (no matter how low), and throw your best prospects to the wolves. That sure worked well up north.

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#8 Veggie Dog
March 06 2014, 11:36AM
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I think Mike Gillis is bungling his way through his job, lurching from disaster to disaster, rather than making a calculated move to rebuild.

Also, the return for Berra was a god-damned magic trick.

Lastly, PLEASE don't dredge up the whole intellectual honesty thing again. He's gone, and so is the phrase.

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#9 TRAV
March 06 2014, 10:41AM
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The return for Berra was unbelievable. He has won a single game in regulation and his save percentage is terrible. this was a robbery by Burke. I also think that a third for Stemp based on the market is a very solid return. I think that the Berra trade deserves more credit in this article and from fans in general. (I wonder what Roy and the Avs see in Berra. Are we missing something?)

I agree that not moving Cammy is disappointing. I suspect that is how Cammy and the Flames organization feels. It seems to me that Burke was negotiating tough and ran out of teams and time. This was a mistake. Having said that if he was only going to get you a fourth (for instance) perhaps holding onto him was wise. It is possible that his rights could be traded at the draft for a similar return. I also think that there is some merit, some, to Burke's claim that developing a reputation as a team unwilling to give away assets has some truth.

I would have loved to walk away with more at this deadline but it was an odd market. Not a whole lot of teams willing to give up quality picks or prospects.

With the addition of a second does the Boumeister trade of a 1st, 2nd and Cundari seem more reasonable? With the solid play of young players and some trades looking more promising does this improve the way that we view Feaster's tenure?

At the game last night I really liked the play of Granlund. Skill vision and responsible play. Seeing Knight win some draws also was encouraging. I don't think that Hanowski will ever skate well enough to play regularly in the NHL. With the move of Berra I suspect that the team will be looking to add goalies over the summer. Pretty thin in term of depth t this position.

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#10 Scoring_guru
March 06 2014, 11:44AM
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It would appear that the Canucks are being exposed for the bad team they are and that they looked good in the past by beating up terrible teams in their division such as the Oilers, Flames, Wild and Avalanche which inflated thier yearly point total. Now they play fewer games games against those teams and the Wild and Avalance are much improved.

Why is everyone calling for Nonnis and Torts heads? Keep them. The longer they are there, the more the Nucks will suck....

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#11 piscera.infada
March 06 2014, 12:30PM
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@Kurt

"St. Louis took 9 years to rebuild LA took close to 10 years Pittsburgh took 7 years Chicago took 7-8 years Oilers are in year 4 and suck a$$ still But collectively we seem to think we can resign vets like Cammy, win a bunch of games this year (cause that matters), and pray we draft elite talent from the 10 hole @ the draft.

How many times in that period did St. Louis draft first overall? They picked higher than tenth (actually, thirteenth) twice - one first overall by the name of Erik Johnson, one fourth overall by the name of Pietrangelo.

The LA Kings drafted three times in the top-ten - 2nd overall: Doughty, 5th: B. Schenn, 4th: Hickey.

The Penguins got lucky with Crosby (we can't argue that), took Malkin second overall, and took Staal over Toews.

The Blackhawks drafted 4 times in the top-10 - 1st overall: Kane, 3rd overall: Toews (see above), 3rd overall: Cam Barker, 7th overall: Jack Skille.

So yeah, drafting first overall is awesome - if you get a generational player. As this points out though, it clearly isn't a cure-all. Of many of these top-ten picks, how many are elite? Or, for that matter, still play for the team that drafted them? Doughty, Pietrangelo, Crosby/Malkin/Fleury, Kane/Toews (7 out of 13 play on the teams that drafted them "high").

It's still a crap-shoot, but it seems that it's not as simplistic as "drafting high" as you seem to believe. Sure, you can trade high picks for good players (ie: Schenn/Simmonds for Richards), but that's all based on what other teams are willing to give up - it isn't very often teams are just unloading players of the Richards/Carter ilk.

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#12 mattyc
March 06 2014, 11:06AM
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Two thoughts:

1. I'm not sure what your definition of a 'mediocre declining veteran' is, but Cammalleri is a guy who's only 31 and has been about .75ppg the last 5 years. This year, admittedly he's had some struggles coupled with injuries slowing him down. Realistically though, he's still a viable top 6 option, and there still aren't teams in the league he wouldn't make better. He's not a middling Ryan Smyth, he's a top 6 player, and probably will be for a couple more years.

2. Vancouver hasn't learned anything IMO. They were forced to trade Luongo by his agent (and rightfully so IMO). It's pretty ridiculous how he was treated here (in Vancouver). They messed with him for 2 years waffling around trying to trade him and then hanging him out to dry and embarrassing him in the media. The final straw was the game last weekend. Between Tortorella and Gillis, I don't know how you can more publicly embarrass a player who is the best goaltender in franchise history, brought them to within a game of a cup, won 2 gold medals, and played 8 years in the city. To me, that should (and probably will be) a fireable offense for both of them. Rumours of ownership nixing a Kesler deal tell me Gillis is done at the end of the season.

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#13 piscera.infada
March 06 2014, 11:00AM
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Also, the Devils partially getting off the hook on the whole "cap circumvention" mess is absolutely horrible business on the NHL's part.

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#14 T&A4Flames
March 06 2014, 10:07PM
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Wotherspoon recalled. Whoop, whoop!!

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#15 BurningSensation
March 06 2014, 01:58PM
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1. A. Getting a 2nd round pick for Reto Berra isn't just 'not half bad', it's pure sorcery.

B. Good teams trade assets for a profit, not a loss. Moving Mike Cammalleri for less than what you think he is worth, is poor asset management - by definition. If he resigns after the season ends, Burke still has him as an asset to trade, or play. Remember kids, giving away players is bad. Bad. Bad. Bad. (we'll get to Hemsky in a minute)

C. Yes, the team needs 'assets' more than veterans in decline, but THEY ALSO STILL NEED VETERANS!

They need them for a number of reasons; to reach the salary floor, to avoid a culture of losing, to shelter the kids so they don't get their heads kicked in every night, to be good in the community, and to be solid pros who can lead by example on and off the ice. Any team that fails to shelter its young talent with a solid veteran presence ends up in the Islander/Oiler rebuild hell where the talent grows up crooked (Hall), or busts all together (Gagner). If Burke couldn't get at least a 2nd for Cammalleri he might as well try to resign him and keep him here. A pick lower than a 2nd has virtually no chance of being a player (less than 1 in 20?), whereas a veteran scorer who can do all the things I listed above has much more value than that. Even if Cammalleri walks for money and term elsewhere, Calgary gains even more cap space to sign a veteran who can perform the same role without a boat anchor contract.

D. Sum it up, we got a 2nd and a 3rd (giving us 5 picks in the first 3 rounds - which some people call 'assets') at the cost of a 3rd line veteran merc on an expiring contract, a goalie many thought would be safe to waive through the league, and we still have Cammalleri to re-sign or trade. Pure. Win.

2. The lack of success in Vancouver is directly related to the health of Ryan Kesler. When he was healthy, the team was a juggernaut, when he wasn't they couldn't beat the Oilers. Kesler is just 29, and could easily be an anchor forward through a rebuild. If the team were serious about rebuilding retooling the place to start would be with the Sedins.

3. Hemsky is still a very good player, and landing him for a 3rd and 5th is a crime. The odds on either pick ever being a player in the NHL is asymptotically approaching zero. The Oilers literally just gave him away for nothing. Gosh, I wonder why they are among the two worst teams in the league?

4. Glenn Sather has lost his mind. Period. Trading for a 38 year old speed/finesse winger is one thing, dealing away multiple picks, and Ryan Callahan to do it is bonkers. Not surprised you like it.

5. Gillies has all the appearance of a guy who is finally over a nagging injury and is now getting back into a groove. Assuming continued health he'll be the Flames starter in no fewer than 3 years.

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#16 redricardo
March 06 2014, 10:16AM
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I actually pretty much agree with what Eric Francis wrote here (which is odd... I normally disagree with what Francis says on principal...)

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/03/06/two-shrewd-moves-ease-blow-from-epic-fail-of-not-trading-michael-cammalleri

I'm amazed we were able to get a second round pick for Berra. And not trading Cammalleri was disappointing. So they kind of balance out.

But there is hopefully a cache that comes with not just giving Cammalleri away, a la Islanders crappy return on Vanek. Hopefully next year if a team is looking at a Flames player they're interested in, they'll know that if they want him, they better make a fair offer, because Calgary isn't going to just give him away.

Of course, too many years of that, and refusing to maximize assets based on principal, and you're left wandering the desert... So who knows.

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#17 danglesnipecelly
March 06 2014, 10:28AM
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Parallex wrote:

I wouldn't be so fast in proclaiming that the Canucks have realized "they needed to blow everything up".

I mean what did they really do?... they traded away what is generally considered one of the worst contracts in the NHL (albeit attached to a pretty good player) That they've been trying to get rid of seemingly forever. I don't think you can make the leap that they're blowing anything up yet, The Sedins? Still There, Burrows? Still There, Kesler? Still There (for now), Edler? Still There.

I mean... it's possible that they have started what Sutter should have done before all the madness took over... they may have looked at the dearth of young NHL talent that's in it's near prime stage (21-25) and the abundance of talent on the wrong side of 30... but it's also possible that they just took the opportunity to rid themselves of a longterm headache and intend to just carry on with carrying on.

Agree with this.... the Canucks are an absolute disaster right now and if they had started the rebuild a year and a half ago maybe I would give them some credit.

Luongo demanded a trade after the Heritage Classic snub so they shipped him out for basically nothing (agree that getting rid of that contract IS something) and have since replaced his politely disgruntled ass with Kesler's obnoxiously disgruntled ass which will be a thorn in their side until he's dealt. Leverage diminished due to the fact that everyone knows he wants out and apparently will only go to a small handful of teams.

Twins signed long term and declining HARD, Burrows basically zero value, Kassian is a bust, Gillis and increasingly Tortorella despised in Vancouver and a fan base that doesn't even care anymore - they don't even care enough to be mad!

With regards to a few other "things" I think calling yesterday a catastrophe is a bit much. Berra for a 2nd is 100% win for us, Stemp for a 3rd was expected. Not trading Cammy I agree isn't ideal but not a total loss. I think Burke can still get some value out of him one way or another.

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#18 The Last Big Bear
March 06 2014, 08:25PM
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The Last Big Bear's 5 things;

1) Oh noes!! We didn't get a 3rd rounder for Cammalleri!! We are sad.

2) Vancouver pooped the bed regarding their goalie situation. Good job...?

3) Ales Hemsky got traded for probably less than he's worth. We are supposed to learn from this, and trade Cammalleri for less than he's worth. Lessons.

4) St Louis got traded for a lot. This is apparently an emotional topic for some.

5) Another sure-fire Flames goalie prospect who is basically a guarantee to be Kipper's replacement: Episode 6.

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#19 exsanguinator
March 06 2014, 02:27PM
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@BurningSensation

Agreed on Gillies. In three years him and Ortio as our tandem would be tremendous.

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#20 Ken V.
March 06 2014, 09:19PM
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prendrefeu wrote:

Can we trade Lambert to another fan nation site? There aren't trade deadlines for the Nation Network. Or are there?

At this point he may be worth, oh... maybe two hour's worth of traffic bandwidth and a $10CAD gift card to Tim Hortons.

I'd take a $5 dollar Tim's card at this point, he's just a sitting sh*t cloud in the dressing room at this point...

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#21 piscera.infada
March 06 2014, 10:51AM
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Parallex wrote:

Oh, I'm not saying that their going to be good. No, not at all... what I'm saying is that simply relieving themselves of Luongo doesn't nessicarily mean that "they're blowing it up".

They're not river-boat gambling away futures like Sutter did in the final years (which is unfortunate from a Flames fans perspective). I mean I remember hearing just a few days ago that the Sedins were considered untouchable... in my mind when you're declaring a pair of 33 year old forwards untouchable it means you're not embracing a burn-it-down rebuild.

They're probably thinking they can have their cake and eat it too.

I was involved in conversation about the Sedins when they signed the extension with one of my old friends from Van. The problem I see is that of course they're untouchable, the very nature of their relationship makes them untouchable - it's a total catch-22. Of course, you get two really, really good players for a decade (hurts to admit, but it's truth). Now though, if you need to move them (a la Iginla), you now have to move two relatively large contracts to move (as opposed to one), and are now depreciating assets that must be moved as a package. They're going to be very hard hard to move, let alone get anything substantial for when the time comes.

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#22 CTibs
March 06 2014, 11:35AM
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I think the criticism for not trading Cammalleri is way too harsh. Yes, it would've been nice to move him, but he isn't a hot commodity. Like you said, he's in the group of mediocre, aging veterans that this team shouldn't keep around. But what other team wants a mediocre, aging veteran, and which other team would offer prospects and picks to get him for half a season? I'm sorry to say, but Cammy hasn't been as brilliant as he was for his first stint with the Flames. Since then, he's been injured and underproducing. He wasn't worth the price that Burke put him for, which itself is surprising considering that Burke was willing to retain salary or take on bad contracts. If Burke moved him for a third round pick, he would be criticized for underselling him.

Flames fans were definitely expecting too much from too little. The only players with first round pick value are Monahan and Gio, who were both no-no's at deadline. We weren't going to move Cammalleri and Stempniak for high prices, and certainly weren't going to move Butler or SOB for anything other than low round picks.

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#23 Kurt
March 06 2014, 12:10PM
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CTibs wrote:

I think the criticism for not trading Cammalleri is way too harsh. Yes, it would've been nice to move him, but he isn't a hot commodity. Like you said, he's in the group of mediocre, aging veterans that this team shouldn't keep around. But what other team wants a mediocre, aging veteran, and which other team would offer prospects and picks to get him for half a season? I'm sorry to say, but Cammy hasn't been as brilliant as he was for his first stint with the Flames. Since then, he's been injured and underproducing. He wasn't worth the price that Burke put him for, which itself is surprising considering that Burke was willing to retain salary or take on bad contracts. If Burke moved him for a third round pick, he would be criticized for underselling him.

Flames fans were definitely expecting too much from too little. The only players with first round pick value are Monahan and Gio, who were both no-no's at deadline. We weren't going to move Cammalleri and Stempniak for high prices, and certainly weren't going to move Butler or SOB for anything other than low round picks.

Defending the Cammy mistake is crazy to me.... There is ZERO chance he will resign. And even if you thought he might, renting him to someone else shouldn't change that.

Letting him walk for zero is a mistake. It was an ego move by Burke. As crappy as the return was on Vanek, at least Snow didn't hold the line and let him walk for nothing.

We have 20 games left, which ideally we would lose all 20. Long term there is absolutely nothing better than getting 1st overall. The winning spirit thing is bunk. Nobody cares.

St. Louis is now considered a powerhouse. They were TERRIBLE, 2006, 2007, 2008. 8 years later they are the team they are now. Does anyone on their team now think "wow those last 20 games in 2006 really hurt our culture". No... that is ridiculous.

The bottom line is that Cammy should have been traded for anything. Even if it was the last draft pick of the entire draft it's better than nothing. Burke either let his ego play hardball (likely) or he is trying to do something crazy (likely). Either way it sucks.

I think Burke and fans alike have major delusions about how long this is going to take. I hope Burke doesn't short circuit things and try to get us back to being a playoff bubble team for the next 10 years (see Maple Leafs).

St. Louis took 9 years to rebuild LA took close to 10 years Pittsburgh took 7 years Chicago took 7-8 years Oilers are in year 4 and suck a$$ still

But collectively we seem to think we can resign vets like Cammy, win a bunch of games this year (cause that matters), and pray we draft elite talent from the 10 hole @ the draft.

Sigh............

Sorry for the rant. The Berra thing was nice, but yesterday pissed me off in so many ways because I see it as a glimpse into the strategy of mgmt, and it scares me.

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#24 Parallex
March 06 2014, 01:17PM
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Scoring_guru wrote:

Cant Burke trade his negotiating rights which will then provide us some kind of return?

Yes, but it will without a doubt be for less then what he could have gotten for him yesterday. If anyone even wants to do it that is... I honestly don't think anyone will be beating down the Flames door trying to get a two day head start on UFA negotiations with Mike Cammellari.

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#25 piscera.infada
March 06 2014, 01:59PM
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@Blanks

It's not the fact that he said the rebuild will take time. It's the "losing is the only way to do it" mantra. That's patently false - you're essentially playing the house. Sure, you finish dead last several years in row and give yourself the "best" odds, but you're still acquiring unknowns hoping they pan out, and you're hoping this all happens at the same time.

Regardless of how to do it, it's bound to be difficult (such is the nature of digging yourself out of a massive mess). It just gets real old, real fast to listen to this same re-hashed story about the only way to acquire talent being to tank and draft first-overall year after year. That is falsehood (see my last post). In fact, you look at the teams that have picked top-ten the most often in the last two decades, and they aren't exactly your model franchises - Florida, New York Isles, Edmonton.

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#26 Jordon Scott Burden
March 06 2014, 10:37PM
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Can't wait to see my man Wotherspoon do his thing.

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#27 Scoring_guru
March 06 2014, 12:25PM
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Cant Burke trade his negotiating rights which will then provide us some kind of return?

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#28 suba steve
March 07 2014, 06:59AM
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@exsanguinator

"Anyone have a rebuttal or do you just want to tank it like the Oilers or Islanders?"

I would rather tank like CHI, PITT, LA, or StL.

Four extra regulation losses (instead of regulation wins) in the last 62 games would have put the Flames well below the Oil and just above Buff in the standings. FOUR extra losses! Hardly soul shattering.

If Chicago had drafted just 3 slots lower in their "tank" years (2006 & 2007), their roster may include Derrick Brassard (instead of J Toews) and Thomas Hickey (instead of P Kane). To me, the potential difference in return renders those four extra losses very valuable to an organization.

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#29 piscera.infada
March 07 2014, 08:03AM
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suba steve wrote:

"Anyone have a rebuttal or do you just want to tank it like the Oilers or Islanders?"

I would rather tank like CHI, PITT, LA, or StL.

Four extra regulation losses (instead of regulation wins) in the last 62 games would have put the Flames well below the Oil and just above Buff in the standings. FOUR extra losses! Hardly soul shattering.

If Chicago had drafted just 3 slots lower in their "tank" years (2006 & 2007), their roster may include Derrick Brassard (instead of J Toews) and Thomas Hickey (instead of P Kane). To me, the potential difference in return renders those four extra losses very valuable to an organization.

Every thing looks so much easier in hindsight. Chicago drafts two spots earlier in 2006 they likely end up with consensus first overall Erik Johnson instead of Toews or another player "ranked higher" in that draft in Jordan Staal. You're telling me the Blackhawks are as good as they are now with either of those two players and not Toews? I highly doubt it. Neither of them have made anywhere near the impact that Toews has.

Understandably, it's a moot point, but you can easily cherry pick situations where draft order makes a huge difference. Pittsburgh doesn't win the lottery in 2005, maybe they have Bobby Ryan or Jack Johnson (and thusly, maybe they don't get Letang in the third).

So is it better to play the games and let the chips fall where they may, with an eye to always improving every aspect of the club (ie. "the Boston model")? Or, should you spend your time counting wins as contra the "rebuild", assuming you're going to strike it rich at the draft?

I know, I know, every spot you move up in order increases your chances of getting an elite player. It just doesn't hold true year to year for a defined amount of time (ie: every year for four years of tanking).

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#30 seve927
March 07 2014, 08:51AM
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piscera.infada wrote:

Every thing looks so much easier in hindsight. Chicago drafts two spots earlier in 2006 they likely end up with consensus first overall Erik Johnson instead of Toews or another player "ranked higher" in that draft in Jordan Staal. You're telling me the Blackhawks are as good as they are now with either of those two players and not Toews? I highly doubt it. Neither of them have made anywhere near the impact that Toews has.

Understandably, it's a moot point, but you can easily cherry pick situations where draft order makes a huge difference. Pittsburgh doesn't win the lottery in 2005, maybe they have Bobby Ryan or Jack Johnson (and thusly, maybe they don't get Letang in the third).

So is it better to play the games and let the chips fall where they may, with an eye to always improving every aspect of the club (ie. "the Boston model")? Or, should you spend your time counting wins as contra the "rebuild", assuming you're going to strike it rich at the draft?

I know, I know, every spot you move up in order increases your chances of getting an elite player. It just doesn't hold true year to year for a defined amount of time (ie: every year for four years of tanking).

I don't think you're ever going to convince people of this common sense. They see, this team did this and they won, so we have to do the "same thing". They don't see the 10 other teams that did the "same thing" and sucked. It's so much more to do with overall drafting and development rather that just getting top picks.

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#31 Parallex
March 06 2014, 10:44AM
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@redricardo

Oh, I'm not saying that their going to be good. No, not at all... what I'm saying is that simply relieving themselves of Luongo doesn't nessicarily mean that "they're blowing it up".

They're not river-boat gambling away futures like Sutter did in the final years (which is unfortunate from a Flames fans perspective). I mean I remember hearing just a few days ago that the Sedins were considered untouchable... in my mind when you're declaring a pair of 33 year old forwards untouchable it means you're not embracing a burn-it-down rebuild.

They're probably thinking they can have their cake and eat it too.

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#32 Parallex
March 06 2014, 11:15AM
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@TRAV

I think we'll be drafting a goalie this year. Maybe with the Penguins 3rd?

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#33 cccsberg
March 06 2014, 12:50PM
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Kurt wrote:

Defending the Cammy mistake is crazy to me.... There is ZERO chance he will resign. And even if you thought he might, renting him to someone else shouldn't change that.

Letting him walk for zero is a mistake. It was an ego move by Burke. As crappy as the return was on Vanek, at least Snow didn't hold the line and let him walk for nothing.

We have 20 games left, which ideally we would lose all 20. Long term there is absolutely nothing better than getting 1st overall. The winning spirit thing is bunk. Nobody cares.

St. Louis is now considered a powerhouse. They were TERRIBLE, 2006, 2007, 2008. 8 years later they are the team they are now. Does anyone on their team now think "wow those last 20 games in 2006 really hurt our culture". No... that is ridiculous.

The bottom line is that Cammy should have been traded for anything. Even if it was the last draft pick of the entire draft it's better than nothing. Burke either let his ego play hardball (likely) or he is trying to do something crazy (likely). Either way it sucks.

I think Burke and fans alike have major delusions about how long this is going to take. I hope Burke doesn't short circuit things and try to get us back to being a playoff bubble team for the next 10 years (see Maple Leafs).

St. Louis took 9 years to rebuild LA took close to 10 years Pittsburgh took 7 years Chicago took 7-8 years Oilers are in year 4 and suck a$$ still

But collectively we seem to think we can resign vets like Cammy, win a bunch of games this year (cause that matters), and pray we draft elite talent from the 10 hole @ the draft.

Sigh............

Sorry for the rant. The Berra thing was nice, but yesterday pissed me off in so many ways because I see it as a glimpse into the strategy of mgmt, and it scares me.

Kurt, I get it you're frustrated and angry. We all wanted some sublime picks and trades, who doesn't. But saying trading Cammi for the last pick of the draft and losing our last 20 games is smart is just DUMB.

We do NOT KNOW whether Cammi will re-sign or not. If so, we can try for a trade again next year. If not its a loss, sure, but an argument can be made that standing firm (even with lowering ask...) was beneficial as it "worked" by getting us better picks for Berra and Stemps. Since we don't really know what happened its all conjecture. For me the "log-jam" theory sounds most logical and there's not much you can do about that. Hey, we could have been Anaheim, clearing the decks dumping their first-liner then failing to get anybody back... ouch!

As for losing the last 20 to get the top pick, tell me, WHO IS the top pick this year? Frankly I haven't a clue as to who will be the best 3-4 years down the line. Ekblad looks good now but because he matured so early I'm sure that wouldn't be the case in a few years when others mature. Reinhart great but small, Dal Colle? Virtanen? others...? There's no clear-cut top dog even at this point, and much less a few years down the road.

Wether this takes 2 years or 5 who knows. What I do know is this years Flames have been very entertaining to watch, but are still bad because of the talent and depth and they've developed a great team ethic which IS important. Tanking for picks is delusional... just ask the Oilers how that's working out for them.

Enjoy these last games, get an insight into what the future may be. Its definitely positive.

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#34 Baalzamon
March 06 2014, 01:33PM
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Berra for a 2nd... strange how that looks so much like Kiprusoff for a 2nd.

Of course, that trade turned out alright for the Sharks, since they used that pick on Marc-Edouard Vlasic.

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#35 Blanks
March 06 2014, 01:51PM
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Kurt wrote:

Defending the Cammy mistake is crazy to me.... There is ZERO chance he will resign. And even if you thought he might, renting him to someone else shouldn't change that.

Letting him walk for zero is a mistake. It was an ego move by Burke. As crappy as the return was on Vanek, at least Snow didn't hold the line and let him walk for nothing.

We have 20 games left, which ideally we would lose all 20. Long term there is absolutely nothing better than getting 1st overall. The winning spirit thing is bunk. Nobody cares.

St. Louis is now considered a powerhouse. They were TERRIBLE, 2006, 2007, 2008. 8 years later they are the team they are now. Does anyone on their team now think "wow those last 20 games in 2006 really hurt our culture". No... that is ridiculous.

The bottom line is that Cammy should have been traded for anything. Even if it was the last draft pick of the entire draft it's better than nothing. Burke either let his ego play hardball (likely) or he is trying to do something crazy (likely). Either way it sucks.

I think Burke and fans alike have major delusions about how long this is going to take. I hope Burke doesn't short circuit things and try to get us back to being a playoff bubble team for the next 10 years (see Maple Leafs).

St. Louis took 9 years to rebuild LA took close to 10 years Pittsburgh took 7 years Chicago took 7-8 years Oilers are in year 4 and suck a$$ still

But collectively we seem to think we can resign vets like Cammy, win a bunch of games this year (cause that matters), and pray we draft elite talent from the 10 hole @ the draft.

Sigh............

Sorry for the rant. The Berra thing was nice, but yesterday pissed me off in so many ways because I see it as a glimpse into the strategy of mgmt, and it scares me.

Why all the trashes? This guy is bang on. Unfortunately this re-build is going to take a long time. We make fun of the oil up north but we won't be seeing the playoffs for 6+ years. Just telling it how it is.

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#36 Kurt
March 06 2014, 03:10PM
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piscera.infada wrote:

"St. Louis took 9 years to rebuild LA took close to 10 years Pittsburgh took 7 years Chicago took 7-8 years Oilers are in year 4 and suck a$$ still But collectively we seem to think we can resign vets like Cammy, win a bunch of games this year (cause that matters), and pray we draft elite talent from the 10 hole @ the draft.

How many times in that period did St. Louis draft first overall? They picked higher than tenth (actually, thirteenth) twice - one first overall by the name of Erik Johnson, one fourth overall by the name of Pietrangelo.

The LA Kings drafted three times in the top-ten - 2nd overall: Doughty, 5th: B. Schenn, 4th: Hickey.

The Penguins got lucky with Crosby (we can't argue that), took Malkin second overall, and took Staal over Toews.

The Blackhawks drafted 4 times in the top-10 - 1st overall: Kane, 3rd overall: Toews (see above), 3rd overall: Cam Barker, 7th overall: Jack Skille.

So yeah, drafting first overall is awesome - if you get a generational player. As this points out though, it clearly isn't a cure-all. Of many of these top-ten picks, how many are elite? Or, for that matter, still play for the team that drafted them? Doughty, Pietrangelo, Crosby/Malkin/Fleury, Kane/Toews (7 out of 13 play on the teams that drafted them "high").

It's still a crap-shoot, but it seems that it's not as simplistic as "drafting high" as you seem to believe. Sure, you can trade high picks for good players (ie: Schenn/Simmonds for Richards), but that's all based on what other teams are willing to give up - it isn't very often teams are just unloading players of the Richards/Carter ilk.

I agree with almost everything you say. My point was less about 1st overall being the cure (Coilers prove its not), but that the timelines are realistically 5+ years. So keeping Cammy is pointless, the value of 'a winning culture' over the next 20 games is equally pointless.

I don't think people are willing to accept how long a rebuild takes. St. Louis was bad in 2006,07,08. That is how they built their team. It took them NINE years to become a legit contender.

We love to point up north and say its a big flop. But really they are about on the same timeline as LA, Chicago & St. Louis. It takes LONG to draft and develop a contending team.

If we want to follow Burke's last team and get fairly quickly back to a middling bubble playoff team, then the story is different.

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#37 Greg
March 06 2014, 05:57PM
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I'm disappointed we didn't get anything for Cammy, but realistically I didn't think he was going to land a 1st given the season he was having. So a 2nd and 3rd yesterday sounds like a reasonable return for what we were peddling... It's just surprising we got that and still have him on the roster.

Assuming all Burke was getting offered was 3rds and less, I'd agree keeping him was the right call for the team.

Truthfully I'm more disappointed for Cammy than the team. Would have been nice to see him get a crack at the playoffs this year. He deserved that given how good a character guy he's been for the team and I wonder if that factored into Burke's decision making at all. Hopefully Cammy is ok with that.

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#38 T&A4Flames
March 06 2014, 06:51PM
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@Kurt

You keep bringing up CHI, PIT etc. Do you have any proof that these teams tanked, or rather, didn't try to win every game they played with a full effort?

There is a difference between losing the next 20 games due to indifference and losing because you were beat. If CGY keeps playing like they want to win the last 20 games but lose them all, I'm fine with that. Also, I don't think that hurts the organization for the future.

To look up north and not see that not accepting losing and players not getting their ice time and top 6/top pairing minutes by earning it rather than by attrition only leads to a slow and poor rebuild is ignorance. To my eye, Hall still plays like hes in junior and that directly correlates to lack of discipline and proper mentorship.

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#39 Kurt
March 07 2014, 07:04AM
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exsanguinator wrote:

For whoever trashed me, how is

Gio/Brodie ?/? Wideman/Smid Butler

a bad start? Like I said, a 3/4 defenseman. Look at how many one goal games this team has been in this year. If you're not sure, it's 36. Turn a third of that into ties and a third of that into wins and this team is in the playoff hunt.

A good middle pairing defensive team can more than make up for the sub par goaltending the Flames got during the Berra experiment and turn this franchise into a competitor rather than a seller.

If the team keeps Hartley, makes some shrewd moves in the off season, I see no reason we can't be buyers next March.

Anyone have a rebuttal or do you just want to tank it like the Oilers or Islanders?

Your plan has zero chance of making us a perennial Stanley cup contender. Ya it's possible to hurry back to mediocrity. Remember people last year using Ottawa as a prime example of a quick retool.... No thanks.

I want to be in the group with Pittsburgh, LA and Boston. Not another decade of Nashville/Phoenix middling bubble teams. Forget it. Been there, done that.

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#40 Greg
March 07 2014, 08:29AM
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So... I was on airplanes deadline day and unable to follow the trades. Having just caught up on everything now, I gotta tip my hat to Burke. The return on rental players this year was abysmal... A conditional 2nd and middling prospect for Vanek? Burke essentially got that for Reto freaking Berra! And almost as much for Stempniak and the Oilers got for Hemsky.

That was a terrible market for sellers, aside from a couple of overpays (looking at you LA) and I gotta say Burke made out like a bandit on the trades he was able to make. I'd say the only teams that had better deadlines were TB (that's a pretty incredible haul for a 38 year disgruntled player no matter how good he is), Columbus, Montreal, and maybe Minnesota.

Also, here's hoping that was only due to the cap crunch this year and things will open up again next year.

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#41 piscera.infada
March 07 2014, 09:02AM
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@Kurt

St. Louis, Los Angeles, and I would argue Chicago (their third was Cam Barker who was hardly an impact player, and as you correctly stated Chicago won the lottery for Kane). This is assuming that we're talking about their current iteration and not top-3 picks in the history of their franchise.

St. Louis

Los Angeles

Chicago

The point he's making is that it belies the point entirely. You still have to make the correct picks (for example Toews over Erik Johnson - I mean, imagine if the Blues did that). Not to mention the "top-3" argument just sounds arbitrary to me - why not "top-1" or "top-5"?

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#42 redricardo
March 06 2014, 10:23AM
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@Parallex

Look at where the Canucks are now compared to last year. Instead of Schneider and Luongo, they have Lack and Markstrom. Kesler is on his way out, probably at the draft, and rumors about Edler are flying. The Sedin's are in their 30's and nowhere near as effective as they were, and the team is hoping to be lucky enough to scratch their way into a playoff spot after several years of it being a given. Sounds familiar to anyone who's been a Flames Fan for about a decade.

Yes, they still have a few marginal pieces in place that they could potentially build around, and maybe they aren't going full out "blow up" like the Oilers, but I personally agree with Lambert. Just a look at the goalies now compared to a year ago and the rumors of exodus would lead me more towards rebuilding, than loading up for another run.

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#43 Kurt
March 06 2014, 12:23PM
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@Kurt

BTW - I get that nobody wants the rebuild to take 6-7 years, but that is how long it took LA, Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburgh.

And Pens drafted 2 generational talents. All of those teams picked top 3 multiple years.

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#44 SeanCharles
March 06 2014, 01:13PM
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Kurt wrote:

Defending the Cammy mistake is crazy to me.... There is ZERO chance he will resign. And even if you thought he might, renting him to someone else shouldn't change that.

Letting him walk for zero is a mistake. It was an ego move by Burke. As crappy as the return was on Vanek, at least Snow didn't hold the line and let him walk for nothing.

We have 20 games left, which ideally we would lose all 20. Long term there is absolutely nothing better than getting 1st overall. The winning spirit thing is bunk. Nobody cares.

St. Louis is now considered a powerhouse. They were TERRIBLE, 2006, 2007, 2008. 8 years later they are the team they are now. Does anyone on their team now think "wow those last 20 games in 2006 really hurt our culture". No... that is ridiculous.

The bottom line is that Cammy should have been traded for anything. Even if it was the last draft pick of the entire draft it's better than nothing. Burke either let his ego play hardball (likely) or he is trying to do something crazy (likely). Either way it sucks.

I think Burke and fans alike have major delusions about how long this is going to take. I hope Burke doesn't short circuit things and try to get us back to being a playoff bubble team for the next 10 years (see Maple Leafs).

St. Louis took 9 years to rebuild LA took close to 10 years Pittsburgh took 7 years Chicago took 7-8 years Oilers are in year 4 and suck a$$ still

But collectively we seem to think we can resign vets like Cammy, win a bunch of games this year (cause that matters), and pray we draft elite talent from the 10 hole @ the draft.

Sigh............

Sorry for the rant. The Berra thing was nice, but yesterday pissed me off in so many ways because I see it as a glimpse into the strategy of mgmt, and it scares me.

If we were playing Be a GM mode in NHL14 I would agree with you.

In real life there are numerous factors that all contribute to the decision making process.

I was pissed yesterday too...

Then I saw the Berra and Stempniak trades and I calmed down and realized this was actually a decent deadline for us.

Cammy was probably getting lowballed to a value that isnt that much better than trading his rights in the offseason.

Butler would have been a lowly pick and we don't have anyone outside of Smith who can replace him. Smith isnt a top-6 NHL dman so its understandable why we retained Butler.

Kesler 'being available' screwed the market up bigtime..

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#45 Blanks
March 06 2014, 02:04PM
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piscera.infada wrote:

It's not the fact that he said the rebuild will take time. It's the "losing is the only way to do it" mantra. That's patently false - you're essentially playing the house. Sure, you finish dead last several years in row and give yourself the "best" odds, but you're still acquiring unknowns hoping they pan out, and you're hoping this all happens at the same time.

Regardless of how to do it, it's bound to be difficult (such is the nature of digging yourself out of a massive mess). It just gets real old, real fast to listen to this same re-hashed story about the only way to acquire talent being to tank and draft first-overall year after year. That is falsehood (see my last post). In fact, you look at the teams that have picked top-ten the most often in the last two decades, and they aren't exactly your model franchises - Florida, New York Isles, Edmonton.

Yeah you raise good points. Lots of disappointment in Edmonton for sure. I think RNH may be the best of the 4 kids. Great vision and sees the game very well. I think they almost have to move Eberle while he still has some value.

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#46 piscera.infada
March 06 2014, 03:31PM
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@Kurt

I won't disagree that a rebuild will take a significant amount of time. However, using Burke's "mistake" of not trading Cammy as evidence that he's just looking for a middling bubble playoff team is weak, IMO. I'll agree with you that 20 games of losing isn't going to hurt us - just like a few draft spots up or down won't make or break the rebuild. That's the point I'm trying to make.

You seem to be of the mind that we need to lose to win. While I agree with you in some sort of meta-sense, I firmly don't believe tanking in the long term does anything but hurt your fans and make your organization unattractive to good people (whether they be free agents, draft picks, office personnel, or management).

The reason I'm not up in arms on the Cammy non-trade is because I see it as being of little consequence. Sure, he doesn't really help us here over 20 games. If he resigns, he doesn't really push us over the hump. If he was traded we get what, a third round pick and a 'c' prospect? Sure, maybe that helps, but in all likelihood it doesn't, so I'm not going to label the trade deadline a failure, and spend my time crying over spilt milk.

Yes, you can use all of Burke's comments to assume he'll short-cut the rebuild (he's said as much). I can't say it doesn't worry me at all. That said, I'm sick of the "only one way to rebuild and organization" narrative so many people create. Hell, I don't even like the term "rebuild" (different story though). I'm just of the mind that no amount of belly-aching is really going to change the situation this organization is in, and I don't know exactly what the "best" way to "rebuild" a franchise is. It seems to be heavily based on luck - sure, a GM's competence can add to the amount of luck a team may have. I don't think Brian Burke is a plug of a GM though.

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#47 exsanguinator
March 07 2014, 02:04AM
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For whoever trashed me, how is

Gio/Brodie ?/? Wideman/Smid Butler

a bad start? Like I said, a 3/4 defenseman. Look at how many one goal games this team has been in this year. If you're not sure, it's 36. Turn a third of that into ties and a third of that into wins and this team is in the playoff hunt.

A good middle pairing defensive team can more than make up for the sub par goaltending the Flames got during the Berra experiment and turn this franchise into a competitor rather than a seller.

If the team keeps Hartley, makes some shrewd moves in the off season, I see no reason we can't be buyers next March.

Anyone have a rebuttal or do you just want to tank it like the Oilers or Islanders?

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#48 piscera.infada
March 07 2014, 08:34AM
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@piscera.infada

I guess if you're looking to rebuild through the draft, perhaps the "best" way to go about it probably isn't tanking, but rather acquiring as many picks as possible in the top-10 to top-15 of a draft. That is where you're going to find the majority of your great to elite players. As such, more darts (as we discussed at the draft last year).

That is much harder than is sounds though. Teams aren't just giving those picks away. Typically, if your rebuilding, you aren't going to have anything that's worthy of that kind of draft pick. Unless you're trading with Garth Snow, of course.

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#49 piscera.infada
March 07 2014, 10:09AM
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@BurningSensation

The thing about Boston was that they were never that bad. I posted earlier that it comes down to properly managing all areas of the organization. If a franchise is able to do that, they likely wouldn't be in the mess we (and a lot of other teams) are currently in. Also, has anyone noticed that Pittsburgh has essentially destroyed the majority of their prospect base, and they're continually haemorrhaging draft picks? It appears they didn't learn their lesson.

One last time - as a brief aside - look at the teams that have had the most top-5 picks in the last two decades. They are not model franchises at all - NY Isles, Florida, Edmonton.

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#50 beloch
March 07 2014, 10:49AM
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What's more important than picking a slot or two higher this year? Always being "sellers".

Look at the abundance of talent the Flames have ready to make the big team late this season or early next season. Some of it might even step forward into elite territory. Imagine what the Flames could be in a decade if this influx of talent happened every year!

This is actually a realistic scenario. If the Flames avoid being "buyers" they will reach the point where their prospect system generates enough surplus talent to both support itself and provide elite talent to the team. There are plenty of teams out there willing to let others draft and develop talent that they will then overpay for. The Flames were one of those teams under Sutter.

I'm not saying the Flames should never buy. If the need is high and the price is right, that's what you have to do. I'm saying they should avoid being habitual buyers who, as soon as they get a whiff of the playoffs, empty out the farm and trade all their picks to make it. This only ensures that success will be temporary.

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