FN Weekend Open Thread – Build your JayBo Trade

 

 

Aside from the Flames suddenly signing a bunch of goalies, the only interesting Flames "news" recently is the Jay Bouwmeester/Detroit Red Wings rumor. This one apparently comes from a source inside the Wings organization, so we can give it a bit more heft than the typical Eklund nonsense.

Roger Millions noted on twitter yesterday that Calgary isn’t actively shopping Bouwmeester at this point, but is willing to listen to offers. If true, that suggests the Wings (or any other suitor) is going to have to convince Calgary to make the move – meaning the package is going to have to be pretty attractive.

Which makes sense, since the Flames are still clearly trying to compete next season. A draft pick and a prospect type package would make sense for the club if they decided to actively pursue a rebuild, but otherwise filling the hole left by Bouwmeester would be essentially impossible in the short term.

While there are plenty of reasons to be unimpressed with JayBo (huge pay check, lackluster offense, not an elite shut-down defender), keep in mind he played the toughest minutes in the league with Chris Butler as his partner. Calgary’s defensive depth would move from "adequate" to "scary" sans JayBo as well: Giordano, Wideman, Butler, Brodie, Sarich, Smith, Babchuk. So even with his too-big paycheck, his muffin of a point shot and bland personality, Bouwmeester remains an incredibly hard presence for the Flames to replace.

Make Your Choice

 

So your prefered package for JayBo is going to be guided by how you feel about the Flames immediate future. There is a large and growing faction of Flames fans who would like to see the Flames begin the rebuild in earnest now rather than drift into an iceberg later. If so, then it makes sense to shop Bouwmeester for some package featuring a younger player and prospect or draft pick. Of course, if that’s the tact the club takes, then shopping Iginla and Kipper immediately would be the next obvious step.

On the other hand, if you agree with management and want to see the Flames remain competitive, then a Bouwmeester trade will have to include a couple of players who addresses a significant current need on the club: a quality top-6 forward between the ages of 23-27, an elite possession forward (below the age of 35) or at least a defender who can adequately replace Bouwmeester’s minutes.

A home run deal would be to blend the two – land a quality player for now and a good prospect/pick for later. I assume that is the sort of deal Ken Holland or Paul Holmgren will have to make get Calgary to seriously consider things, but you never know.

So for the sake of this exercise, assume both Detroit and Philadelphia are in the running (there are no solid Philly rumors, but it’s an intuitive enough leap). Build your hypothetical package around your preference for team direction: rebuild now, compete now or hybrid. Keep in mind with latter, "ideal", hybrid package will be the toughest to build aand would likely feature a compromise in one direction or the other – the better the established player you demand, the worse the future asset will be and vice versa. 

Personally, I would ask about Johan Franzen, Valterri Filpulla, Tomas Tatar, Brendan Smith, Gustav Nyquist and Calle Jarnkrok out of Detroit. Philly players of interest include Sean Couturier, Braydenn Schenn, Jakub Voracek and Eric Wellwood. Mix in draft picks at will. 

  • SmellOfVictory

    I would like to see the number of left wingers and/or left handed shooters reduced and replaced with right handed personnel. Just spit ballin’ but how bout’Glencross and Bouwmeester to Anaheim for Getzlaf with a guarantee he’ll re-sign with Calgary after next year? Or to Philadelphia for Schenn(d), Simmonds and a 2nd or 3rd in next years draft?

  • It was written on another site that it would take Klefbom, MPV and a 2nd to even get Calgary’s attention from Edm so why are we so sure that he can’t fetch a bunch. Put him with an up tempo and skilled team and look out.
    So,
    To Phil: J-Bo, Glencross
    To Cal: Cout, Bourdon and a 1st.

    To Stl: J-Bo, Smith, Jackman, Glencross
    To Cal: Berglund, Stewart, Polock and Reaves.

    • Colin.S

      there’s a lot of clutter in that trade. The main thing is switch Stewart with Alex Steen. The guy is ridiculously underrated.

      also, it’s Polak. Polock is a racial slur.

      • Colin.S

        lol. Spell check too. There is some clutter in that proposal but was trying to match some contracts $. I would rather have Steen too but would settle for Stewart.

  • McRib

    What is it with all the love for Darren Helm, the dude has hands of stone. Nine goals last year, are you kidding me….Filppula may have played on a good line but he could out score Helm in his sleep.

    Trade from Philadelphia just doesn’t make that much sense they have no prospects, if it isn’t Schenn or Couturier (unlikely) not worth. Matt Read and a first would be alright.

    Detroit Trade 1:

    Gustav Nyquist,
    Marek Tvrdon
    2nd Rounder

    Detroit Trade 2:

    Tomas Tatar,
    Riley Sheahan
    2nd Rounder

    Detroit Trade 3:

    Calle Jarnkrok,
    Ryan Sproul
    1st Rounder

    In an ideal world Brendan Smith would be the guy to get but doubt Detroit is giving up a defenseman who is NHL ready.

  • Colin.S

    Speaking as a Flyers fan living in Calgary, there is no way they give up Schenn or Coots in a Jbow deal. These 2, along with Giroux are the future of this team.

    Holmgren will likely go into the season with what he has, and tinker from there should it be necesary. Mezaros isnt needed for the regular season, and should be fine come playoff time.

    If Jbow goes to the flyers, i dont see the Flames getting much back in return except for a salary dump and maybe a #2 pick.

    We are talking Holmgren versus Feaster here, by the time Holgren is done with Feaster the flyers would likely have Jbow, and Calgarys #1 pick in return for a Bobby Clarke signed jersey.

    • McRib

      If Homer is so good, why didn’t his team win the cup instead of the 2 guys he got rid of who actually did? JBO would vastly improve his team and they do need to do something as they have been passed this offseason by a few Eastern teams imo.

    • Kevin R

      Hey Flyer dude! Not all GM’s are like Howson. You guys can go ahead with a decimated defense & if you are hovering in the 8th-9th rat race, and the screams for a defenseman get louder, maybe some tunes will change. You have to give to get. If you think a 2nd & a scrub will get you your top 2 dman, go try that with Phoenix and get Yandle. Homer is so good he will probably get Yandle & Phoenix’s 2013 & 2014 1st’s for a Clarke signed jersey.

  • Kevin R

    Most of the best trade scenarios being posted are based on salary dumps & rebuild. Afraid Feasty boys are not rebuilding, therefore we would probably cry if we knew some of the offers he has probably said no to. The only way Feasty pulls the trigger is to rob Peter to pay Paul. He needs a number 1 centre & that would be worth parting with JBO & other assets to acquire. Philly is our best bet for that potential number 1 centre who isnt there yet. To get Couts & Philly 1st for JBO + Cammi, would you do that? Does this trade make us better? You would fly with Tanguay Couts & Iggy,GlenX Cerevenka & Hudler, Baerschte Backs Stempy, Comeau Jones Jackman. I guess aside of a hockey trade of Statsny for JBO, I dont think there are many trades we can do with JBO without looking like we are rebuilding. Oh well, helps us get thru August anyway.

  • Franko J

    If I was GM:

    I would take a wait and see approach. With a suspected delay to the season why make the trade now? I would want to see how Hartley puts his “finger prints” on the Flames first before making any trades.

    Besides the Flames ownership and management are not interested in rebuilding this team. So trading Bouwmeester would go against philosophically everything that has been preached this past off season. If the team is unwilling to trade the big 2 — why trade the #1 defensemen {by default only} off the team?

    No offense Feaster or Bouwmeester, but there is a dman in Phoenix that probably garners more interest from both Detroit and Philadelphia.

  • Colin.S

    LOL at Schenn and Courturier being the future, I thought the future was Richards/Carter? Flyers GM ain’t worried about trading guys for other guys that includes the suposive “future”.

  • RKD

    To Det: Jay Bouwmeester, Anton Babchuk and/or Matt Stajan
    To Cgy: Valteri Fillpula and a 2nd round pick

    or

    To Det: Jay Bouwmeester, Anton Babchuk and/or Matt Stajan

    To Cgy: Valteri Fillpula and Gustav Nyquist and 3rd round pick.

  • Danger

    T&A said:

    But that’s the point, if CGY is going to trade JBo, it because someone came up with a big offer that helps CGY now and in the future. So, in this scenario, why not suggest some mildly outrageous trades.

    Exactly. As I said earlier, I’d take Zetterberg or Datsyuk for JBo – not because I think that’s a fair or realistic trade, but because I think any “realistic” trade helps the Red Wings and screws the Flames (at least in the short-term, which is the term Feaster is worried about). I don’t blame Feaster for worrying about the now either, because that’s what will determine the length of his employment by the club.

  • McRib

    @Chris

    Philadelphia’s defense going into the season has to be Bottom 5 in the league, after losing Andrej Meszaros to injury and Matt Carle to UFA you have two legitimate NHL defenseman.

    Outside of Kimmo Timonen/Braydon Coburn you really don’t have anything near a top five defender. Also considering your goaltending is very suspect like usual and you will be in the toughest division in hockey think a 5 or 6 finish in the east is a best case scenario. If your offense isn’t firing on all cylinders all year could easily see you in the bottom of the playoff race.

    Claude Giroux and Scott Hartnell are going to need career years again to even keep you competitive, but like in the playoffs last season when the Devils made quick work of the Flyers by shutting down the offense. You better be hoping that Holmgrin offers more than a Bobby Clarke Jersey for Bouwmeester.

  • BurningSensation

    Smartest thing is for Feaster to play hard to get. Philly and Det have HUGE gaps in their bluelines (Pha is missing Carle, Pronger, and Meszaros, Det Lidstrom, Stuart and Rafalski), and as the off-season and then season move on they will only get more desperate.

    Wait for the right deal (an overpay!), and roll with JBo in the meantime.

  • McRib

    The funniest thing about all these rumors is you know nothing is happening while Jay Bouwmeester is in Ghana with Right to Play.

    Like that the Flames are testing the market as teams like Philly and Detroit become more desperate. If we don’t get any serious offers then just hang onto him to see how the regular season starts.

    If some of the question marks work out (Hartley’s offensive style of coaching, Cervenka, Hudler, Baertschi, Backlund, Cammy with a bounce back years, etc) then the Flames will easily be in the mix. We would project to be more offensive and win more close games that we lost last season, thanks of course to Kipper keeping us in it.

    No way in the world do we ever get Zetterberg or Datsyuk for Bouwmeester. Even Filppula is unlikely more likely a Nyquist, Tatar and a pick/prospect. Detroit really throws around first rounders as their scouting department doesn’t seem to need them.

    This years draft looks like the deepest in years, teams at the draft were trading this years third rounders for next years third rounders straight up and Columbus elected to keep LA’s first for next year, so two first rounders could be very beneficial for further retooling of the prospect pool.

  • McRib

    @Baalzamon

    Totally agree as long as the dome is filled every night with 19,000+ don’t see ownership having any problems with being near the cap. No idea where people got the idea of anything different, one broadcaster voicing his opinion isn’t the same as Ownership/GM coming out and voicing their plans.

  • SickFloBro

    I know this is slightly out of the parameters of the thread but the Flames should be shopping him if they’re going to trade him. Why trade him if you don’t know what else is out there? Maybe “…listening to offers.” is what GMs say just to not seem desperate.

    Anyways, Flames should address their need at centre.

    Bouwmeester, Backlund, 1st FOR Stastny

    It’s a high price but it is almost impossible to acquire 1st line centres without drafting them.

    If it needs to be those teams.

    Bouwmeester FOR Read, 2nd

    Bouwmeester FOR Filpulla

    • JBo, Backlund, AND a 1st for a player who’s expendable in Colorado? I don’t think it would take that much to get Stastny. There are at least 4 other centers on that team, including Matt Duchene (arguably a #1 center), so my guess would be that Stastny is the odd man out. Especially considering the fact that he is always in trade rumours around the deadline.

      • I think you are underestimating Stastny’s value while over estimating Backlund’s and Bouwmeester’s. Bouwmeester is 2 – 3 million overpaid for what he produces. Backlund is coming off a very unproductive offensive season. Many teams will think (as they should) that since Bouwmeester is over priced on his cap hit, he will be traded at a discount rate.

        Stastny can be considered a #1 centre. There are a lot of teams that would like to add a #1 or even another #1. If Bouwmeester, Backlund and 1st are too rich for Feaster’s blood, they’ll be at least a half dozen other GMs willing to pay that much.

        • Perhaps I am overestimating Backlund and JBo’s value. However, when you put them together AND throw in what is probably going to be a top 10 draft pick – that’s just nuts to pay for someone like Stastny.

          He goes games without doing anything. He hasn’t played a full season since 2006-07. He’s not very physical. His point totals have declined the last 4 years. His advanced stats are nothing to call home about.

          Your argument about JBo being overpaid applies to Paul Stastny as well. $7M for 20g30a is not quite in line with what other $7M players produce (Datsyuk, Kovalchuk, Backstrom, Briere, B. Richards, Toews, etc. etc.). Stastny is not them, and JBo is not Weber or Chara.

          This debate is moot however. I find it highly unlikely that Colorado will trade for JBo.

        • Austin L

          I’m sort of left to doubt that. That may be the case for St. Louis because they already have a decent top 4. But Phiiladelphia and Detroit need another top 4. I know Bouwmeester doesn’t produce the points he used to. But for some reason I feel as if one of the reasons for that is the system Sutter had them playing. It didn’t really fit Bouwmeester’s style. I still think he could be a top 2 guy in Detroit. Yes you are right, GM’s will value him lower due to his cap hit but it’s not such a big factor when your Detroit and you have over 10M$ left to spend.

    • Colin.S

      Statsny could be had for a 1st of LESS. Giving up a #1 D, plus a first and a good young center is something even Sutter would not have done. Just a Terrible, terrible trade.

      And what is up with even more Bouwmeester straight up for Filpulla? I’ve stated multiple times he was probaly the weakest in terms of possession on his line with Huddler and Zetterberg, he had the highest PDO(behind Bertuzzi) on the Wings, a ridiculously high SH% last year that he pretty well has NO chance of repeating this year. So those 66 points he got are never likely going to be repeated unless he has another flukely/lucky year.

      • Colin.S

        Same can probably be said for Hudler too. Hudler’s WOWY analysis was better than Filpula, but he was undoubtedly being helped along bigtime from Zetterberg.

        I agree Filpula for Bouw straight up makes no sense whatsoever. JBOUW plays against extremely tough competition and logs a ton of minutes. Doesn’t provide alot of offense, but seriously helps the Flames defensively.

        I think a realistic deal would look something like Bouwmeester and Bouma to DET for Helm, a first round pick, and Nyquist/Tatar.

      • The way you worded your post made it sound like you believe Bowumeester has greater value than Bouwmeester. If this is what you believe, I could not disgree with you more. Stastny is a #1 capable centre. He is also decent defensively.

        Bouwmeester has vastly underproduced compred to his contract. He is not a #1 defenceman and some might say he’s not a #2 either.

        There will be much more demand for Stastny’s services than Bouwmeesters. In the end, it’s all about supply and demand and the demand for a #1 centre is much higher than for an overpaid #2 or 3 defenceman.

        • You’re crazy to undervalue JBO & Backlund & give away our 1st for Statsny. If Statsny is so good, why has he dropped to their 3rd line behind Duchesne & Oreilly? He’s a 7.0mill centre on a 3rd line in Colorado, you really think it will take that much to pry him out of Colorado? Now thats a bad cap hit for a 3rd line centre, the fact he would be a 1st line centre in Calgary is a moot point. JBO is a solid 2-3 dman, slightly overpaid for the next 2 years. You really think Carle who just got 5.6 mill per year on a long term deal is better than JBO?? I just as soon keep the status quo than go with any of your trade scenarios.

  • McRib

    It would be worthwhile adding to JBO to get a future #1 Centre on a faster timeline than we hope for Jankowski. Thats why Couturier should be Feasters target. Wonder what it would take? JBO/Horak/Nemitz(is a Philly style of player) for Couts, Walker(salary dump by Philly) & a 2nd might sweeten the pot for Philly to make a move. Now that would help us now & in the future but still a risk as there is no guarantees with Couts. Philly still has their top 2 centres in Briere & Schenn/Hartnell & Horak may fit in there as well. Nemitz fits the Philly bottom 6 model, we have lots of bottom 6 wingers to spare.

  • Austin L

    I sometimes wonder if waiting until the trade deadline to see how Bouwmeester performs if it increases his trade value. But in this case, with Detroit/Philly most likely wanting to add a top 2 defenseman. And yes I do consider Bouwmeester a top 2 defenseman on most teams even if the points aren’t there, we should either:

    A)Keep him until his contract is up and then trade him away for whatever value we can get.

    B)Trade him immediately to Philadelphia as they’re probably the more desperate, maybe desperate isn’t the right word, but they’re more in need of a top 4 than Detroit.

    Just out of curiosity, I saw some people throwing St. Louis as a potential destination for JBo. I like the idea especially if somehow we could sneak Rattie from them. I would do Rattie+3rd round pick for JBo. But I don’t really see that St. Louis has a need for Bouwmeester. They have Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Jackman, and Polak. Decently solid top 4.

    • T&A4Flames

      Rattle and a 3rd??! So not enough. I would take Rattie as part of a package but not as the highlight in a JBo trade. I fear his numbers from last year were maybe a little skewed from playing with Baertschi. Plus the fact that Feater has said numerous times that they are still looking to win or at least compete now. In my opinion Rattie and a 1st is still not worth it.

      • Colin.S

        How do you know SVEN’s point totals weren’t inflated by playing with Rattie? I would take Rattie and a first for JBOUW . But then again I may be overestimating the kid after seeing him so much last year.

      • Austin L

        I wasn’t so sure about the 3rd, but it was moreso the fact of having Rattie and Baertschi both in the organization. Pipedream. I know. I think if it was their 1st and Rattie it would be worth it. That’s a very good prospect, as well as a late pick in the first round. I guess in my mind, I was wishing we had two first round picks this year. That way, we could’ve taken somebody like Teravainen with #14 and than risk a pick on somebody like a Jankowski lower in the first round. Or Aberg. Or something along those lines.

  • joey joe joe jr shabadoo

    These rumours will go on into the season. I don’t doubt Feaster is listening to offers, but they will start the season with Bouwmeester in the line up.

    They’ll wait till the deadline at the earliest to move Bouwmeester. And the one thing I think we all know is the Flames will have to have either literally zero chance (as in ZERO) of making the playoffs, or Feaster panic’s like Sutter did with Phaneuf if any deal is going to be made. either way I don’t see happening.

    Bottom line is Bouwmeester is the Flames best D-man and if they want to make the playoffs they’re better off with him than without him.

    the only way Bouwmeester gets dealt before the end of the season is if the Flames tank big time. which they won’t we’ve seen this script, they’ll finish 9-11th. Yet another all too familiar all too typical flames season awaits….on the bright side at least it won’t be a full 82 games we’ll have to endure.

    • This concept of a shortened season intrigues me. I’ve already known it’s all too likely to happen, but the ramifications are interesting.

      Does missing October mean that Iginla starts out with a 10-game goal-scoring streak? Does he skip the mythical “doesn’t get going until November” curse? [Yes, I know it’s actually not true]

      Does a 60 game season mean, if the Flames make the playoffs, that Kipper plays 60+ games and remains stellar because it’s 10 less games than usual?

      The possibilities are endless.

      • Franko J

        If the season is shortened by the lockout and there is less games to play, for a team like Calgary there will be more of an emphasis to win. With less games comes with less of a margin for losing. If the past three seasons are any indication how this teams has cracked under pressure when the screws are tightened, the possibility is for another season of agony.

        However, the one intangible or variable will be coach Hartley and how his coaching will handle adversity. And how the players respond to his coaching tactics will be utterly important between a playoff spot and the draft lottery.

        Right now a factor which bellies the fact that JBO is still in Flames Silks is Hartley. For example, last season we witnessed how Sutter improved Glencross’s and Jokinen’s play and maybe this season he might be able to provide the same for JBO.

  • FlamesFanOtherCity

    @ConnorFutureGm

    When will you Oiler fans stop posting on Flames websites, pretending to be Flames fans. You seem to be spouting the same lousy trade values here as on other sites.

    Do you think Feaster will listen to the values you place on Flames’ assets and make a Sutter-style trade(a la Phaneuf), or are you trying to convince us JBow has no value?

  • Colin.S

    Statsny could be a 1st line center here, big emphasis on COULD. He’s dropped to the third line in Colorado for a reason, could a change of scenery really get him back to 1st line form?

    Bouwmeester is a #1 D, the only reason he is over paid is because he doesn’t put up the points he should, other than that, the fact he plays among the most minutes of any other D in the league ans plays against other teams first lines makes him a #1 D, where you rank him against other #1 D is very subjective.

    Again a mid first rounder probably gets Statsny out of Colorado. They will want to be rid of his Salary considering he plays as a 3rd line center.

  • Austin L

    I should rephrase, Stastny is much better than Stajan in regards to what he is being paid. He should probably be getting 3.5-4.5M$. I think that would be reasonable, but it probably isn’t a deal the Flames should be doing right now.

    • Austin L

      How about something like JBO for Rattie and a 1st and a 3rd.

      Take one of our firsts and Stajan and turn that into Stastny?

      Get a Rattie and a 3rd, and get rid of Stajan (who is a 3rd line center replacement for them) and gain Stastny!?

      • Austin L

        I’d do that deal for sure if I was Feaster. We get their first round pick which will be lower then 15, but still a solid pick hopefully. AND Rattie who is an instant linemate for Baertschi. And a 3rd round pick is just a bonus. I love the deal. But I don’t think Feaster would ever do it because it looks too much like a rebuild.

        Getting Stastny would make the move look like less of a rebuild, but I’d rather rebuild than get Stastny. I don’t really like how his point have declined. I’d much rather try and get Duchene from the Avs but that’d never happen.