Prospects Code Blue

TJ-Brodie

That’s TJ Brodie when he was drafted by the Flames. He represents the last drafted-and-developed Flames blueliner. Prior to him you have Tim Erixon and Dion Phaneuf, neither really counts because Erixon never played for the Flames per se and Phaneuf, by dint of the lost lockout season and his own talent level, arrived more or less plug-and-play at the NHL level.

Looking back at the Young Stars tournament I felt there was
a noticeable gap between the quality of forward prospects that the Flames have
acquired versus the defense. This spurred me to take a closer look at the
Flames’ defensive prospects and try to determine the overall strength of this
area of organizational prospect depth.

Here are some of the rookie defensemen who made their way to
the NHL last season and the number of AHL games they logged to get there:
Martin Marincin (100), David Savard (176), Dalton Prout (117), Kevan Miller
(154), Tyson Barrie (93), Jarred Tinordi (144), Nathan Beaulieu (124), Jon
Merrill (27 – 82 in the NCAA), Dylan Olsen (156), Ryan Murphy (22), Brian
Lashoff (162), Kevin Connauton (216). This translates to roughly two seasons on
average for a young defensive prospect to mature and figure out how to play the
game against men.

Players coming out of NCAA often have less of an audition on
the farm team, somewhere usually in the 25 to 75 game range while those coming
from overseas fall anywhere in the late NCAA range to early AHL marker, or
approximately 50 to 100 games, if they play there at all.

The key here is playing against professional men in a
professional league, where players are smarter, faster, and the play is usually
more structured than junior. The differences in size are less pronounced and
the talent ceiling levels off a bit.

If we take these as benchmarks for a young defender to
advance from the prospect to the NHL, where does that leave the Flames
defensive prospect group?

1. Patrick Sieloff

Sieloff

Shutdown defender, very little offense but still managing an even +/- implies
shutdown. 20 yrs old. 2012 2nd round pick has moved from USDL to OHL to AHL in
three years. That rapid transition may prove problematic for his development.
Noted for his open-ice hitting in junior. I’m not especially enamoured of that
skill as it can open up the player to defensive miscues, but he has miles to go
to prove himself. 2 AHL games to date. His scouting report emphasizes his mobility and physicality on the ice, a trait that I believe was advertised along the lines of Matt Dumba when the Flames selected him, and mentions his competitive nature.

2. Tyler Wotherspoon

Wotherspoon

Played
well on a loaded Winterhawks team managing 166 PIMs in 239 games while
maintaining a +97. Offense has always been shy, but has also managed to keep
more or less even +/-. 21 yrs old. 2011 2nd round pick. 48 AHL games to date.
He doesn’t seem to be spectacular at any one thing, but does a number of things
reasonably well enough so far. The Flames bringing in Brookbank and Potter to
camp was a good move. Wotherspoon needs at least another season in the AHL to
continue to develop. Scouting report concurs that he does many things reasonably well but no one thing exceptionally. Sometimes this works for a player provided their general level is high enough, but I am not convinced that it is. He could have a long pro career, but may remain an AHL/NHL tweener.

3. Brett Kulak

Kulak

More
of an offensive defender, scored reasonably well in the WHL and added 107 PIMs
in 216 games. junior +/- was sunk by an early -34 as a rookie, but has improved
since then. 20 yrs old, 2012 4th round pick. 10 AHL games to date. Decent size
at 6’1 and 185lbs, progressed nicely year-over-year including the 12-13 season
where the Giants collapsed. Wore the “A” for the Giants last year. Described as a smooth skater with good mobility and puck-moving skills, Kulak is a good as a draft selection. His skills are duplicated in some of the other prospects we’ll see, but loading up on reasonably-sized puck-moving defensemen is never a bad strategy. His ceiling may be somewhere in the range of a puck-moving 2nd pairing defender, but he has miles to go before we can zero in any further. 

4. Ryan Culkin

Culkin

Another defender with offensive junior pedigree. Had a terrific draft +1 year
and his +/- has been buyoed by an early peak. Defensive game appears to have
improved in the Q the last few years as PIMs have dropped while points have
continued. Evening out of the +/- and being named first Assistant and then
Captain of Remparts indicates he had been called upon more and more before
being traded to the Voltigeurs at the end of last season. 2012 5th round pick.
20 yrs old. Entering first pro season. Stands 6’1” and 174lbs. Scouting report is not unlike Kulak in that he is a puck-moving D with good skating and mobility. These two had very similar junior career numbers, the one exception being that Kulak spent a season on an imploding Giants team that caused his +/- to crater. 

5. Mark Cundari

Cundari

Undrafted junior free agent signed by the Blues and was part of the return on
the Bouwmeester trade. Small offensive defender who has scored 0.42 ppg in 231
AHL games and added 334 penalty minutes with an AHL career +/- of 11. Implies
poor defensive game which could be related to his size. Penalty minutes are
part of his game as evidenced by 553 over 248 OHL games where he likely
produced enough offense to overshadow other liabilities. 24 yrs old and 231 AHL
games to date. Book is largely closed on Cundari as I think we know who and
what he is as a player.

6. John Ramage

Ramage

Son of
Rob Ramage. NCAA defender who provided middling offense (0.34 ppg) but managed
237 PIMs over 157 games and maintained a +/- 28. Short AHL career thus far of
50 games, 1 point, 46 PIMs and +2 indicates a shutdown defender with anemic
offense. Not a particularly large body, but probably projects as a shutdown 3rd
pairing defender in the NHL, top-four shutdown physical presence in the AHL.
2010 4th round pick by the Flames, 23 yrs old. 50 AHL games to date. Often the
college players progress through the AHL more quickly if they have the
puck-moving skill. Ramage doesn’t appear to have much offense in his game, and
shutdown defenders for a bottom-pairing are pretty easy to find in the
NHL. Ramage’s scouting report notes his shutdown nature and the physicality he brings to the job. Neither of these are traits I tend to value highly because they are generally reactive rather than proactive and this skill-set can only take a player so far. My guess is his best NHL chances are to become a player in the range of Ladislav Smid. 

7. Keegan Kanzig

Kanzig

Physically imposing defender out of the WHL, over 196 games has 324 PIMs and 17
pts. Offense is not a factor, but his -9 indicates that he is used as a
physical presence that does not necessarily translate as a defensive shutdown
player. 2013 3rd round pick of the Flames, 19 yrs old provides some time for
improvement but early showings are not encouraging as a potential NHL player.
Returning to junior for 2014-2015 season. Here’s Kyle Woodlief’s take on Kanzig in his draft year <i><blockquote>At 6-5, 240, keeping opponents away from his net and off the puck by
using size and strength is his game. Both his skating and shot could be
timed with a sun dial, but he’s always on the ice against the
opposition’s top line and on the penalty kill in a shutdown role.</blockquote></i> I’m not overly optimistic of Kanzig’s chances. Perhaps he can develop a better defensive game and become a player in the range of Andy Sutton, but his skating has to improve significantly and his decision making needs to at least get to AHL-level before he has a chance. His junior career has been dominated by his size advantage, those players often struggle to learn the game when that advantage is taken away or diminished.

8. John Gilmour

Gilmour

Oft-forgotten college defender, has played 77 NCAA games registering 0.4 ppg
and 57 PIMs with a +3. Indicates a defenseman whose offense dovetails with
defensive assignments. Longshot pick by the Flames, drafted 2013 7th round,
already 21 yrs old. Playing with Providence this next year will be significant
in his development. Returning to NCAA for 2014-2015 season. Gilmour is described as having strong skating and puck skills yet is limited by his size. In the NCAA that is less of a factor than the CHL. Reading his scouting reports reminded me of Taylor Chorney, an undersized Oilers blueline prospect from a lifetime ago. Both went the college route for a time and excelled in reading the play offensively and getting in on the rush. I think Gilmour may become a better all-around defensemen than Chorney, but that has as much to do with being a part of a healthy development system as anything else. Gilmour is a draft-and-follow as the Flames took him in the 7th round in 2012 and he has two more years of eligibility in the NCAA to continue developing. He’s a longshot, but if he makes it it’ll probably be as a 3rd pairing powerplay specialist. 

9. Chad Billins

Billins

Free
agent signing by the Flames in 2013. Depth player, career AHLer. Scores well in
that league with a .55 ppg pace over 141 games, 80 PIMs and +10 indicate a
smart, offensively gifted blueliner. Signed with CKSA Moskova this past spring.
25 yrs old and small. 141 AHL games to date, will play in KHL for the 2014-2015
season. Like Cundari, Billins is a known quantity now and his window to make the NHL has pretty much closed. 

10. Brandon Hickey

Hickey

No
relation to Thomas Hickey. AJHL defender who in 106 games managed 0.27 ppg with
42 PIMs and an even +/-, although I have to admit that last stat could be the
result of limited information. Slightly larger than some previous prospects at
6’1″ and has room to fill out at 176 lbs. Will play with Boston College
this year. 2014 3rd round pick by the Flames. Playing in the NCAA for the
2014-2015 season. Hickey is a ways away, but has promise. He is a strong defensive player who shows some offensive potential and has the ability to earn points by getting the puck to teammates in good positions to score. He is mobile and plays a responsible game in his own end – pretty typical of many NCAA defensemen and a reason why I like this type of player. Too soon to say what his potential will be, but he is due to play for Boston College this year and the Flames have lots of time to let him develop. If you want a possible outcome for him, I’d offer Dillon Simpson, a friend of Hickey’s who advised him on taking the college route, and Jordan Oesterle as two NCAA examples with which I’m familiar.

11. Eric Roy

Roy

Bigger
defender at 6’3″ and 194 lbs. Plays for the Wheat Kings in the WHL, had a
miserable draft year managing 37 pts in 72 games but being sunk by a -32.
Rebounded last year with 44 pts in 66 games and 51 PIMs with a -9. WHL career
numbers are reasonable, 256 games, 0.61 ppg, 158 PIMs and -31, which is largely
the result of one very bad year. Provides more offense than one might assume at
first glance, and his career +/- coupled with his lower PIMs and assistant
captaincy indicate a player who is relied upon and delivers. 2013 5th round
pick by the Flames, 19 yrs old. Likely to return to WHL this season for
his overage year with the Wheat Kings. Roy is somewhat unusual among the Flames’ defensive prospects in that he is a larger body who appears to be able to also play defense, as opposed to those above who seem to be one or the other. He provides some offense, and has good mobility and agility for a large frame, but faces challenges in becoming a more consistent player – something all junior players struggle to learn. The Flames have had prospects like this before in Keith Aulie so it is too early to expect much from the young man, but is in his final year of junior and will need to bring a more steady effort on a nightly basis if he is to progress. 

12. Rushan Rafikov

Rafikov

One
of the Flames’ few Russian drafted players. Has spent majority of development
in the MHL, the KHL’s farm league. 126 games has a 0.29 ppg average, although
he doubled his points from 10 to 20 last year in fewer games, managing more
penalty minutes, 38 to 46, and vastly improving his +/- from 11 to 30. 2013 7th
round pick by the Flames, 19 yrs old, falls into the draft and follow category,
would be beneficial if the Flames could convince him to come over to the AHL to
have more input on his development. Playing in the MHL this season, 128 games in that league to date. European picks are a mix of value and risk. They often play outside of any sphere of influence for the NHL team and therefore their ice time is at the whim of another coach and GM. Teams can watch prospects wither away as they sit on the bench because the coach has his guys he likes and there’s not much you can do about it. Rafikov has tournament pedigree, and in Russia that counts for something. Rafikov is big and moves well, his passing is solid and he plays a strong defensive game. The offense is apparently lacking, but he is generally trusted in his own end. Teams like these kinds of players and because of his playing background the Flames may not have to worry too much about him not getting any playing time. His ceiling could be anywhere in the Alexei Emelin/Mark Methot range. 

13. Adam Ollas Mattsson

Mattson

Large
defensive defenseman from Sweden. Played the majority of his time in the
SuperElit league playing for Djurgarden’s under20 team. Will likely return this
season. Small sample sizes, but over 33 SuperElit games he managed 0.27 ppg, 42
PIMs and is +2. Has nice size at 6’4″ and 216 lbs already, plays a smart
game but apparently needs to improve skating ability. 2014 6th round pick by
the Flames, turned 18 in July and has miles and miles to go. Promising prospect
as a shutdown defender. Falls into the draft and follow category. 33 games in the SuperElit junior league, may split time this
season between SuperElit and Djurgarden of the SHL. He relies on his size and reach to shut down forwards, has little offensive ability to show but has also had limited opportunities thus far. His mobility isn’t always the best, but his reach allows him to get away with it. I don’t think we can say he’ll become the next Niklas Hjalmarsson, but maybe he could develop into the Daniel Tjarnqvist player range or higher depending on his progress the next two years.

Where Does This Leave Us?

While the Flames have some interesting prospects in their system, it isn’t any more or less than most NHL teams. The whole isn’t as inspiring a collection of talent as the forward group, and what redundancy there is isn’t at a level that suggests that a top-four blueliner is bound to emerge from the collection.

Defensemen take time to develop, lots of time, and they get injured and lose their way as time goes on. The surefire bet gets a concussion or fails to take the step from junior to pro, the big-bodied stud from the CHL finds out that there are bigger bodies in the AHL and they don’t give a rat’s behind that you hold the record on your bantam team in Skunk’s Misery, ON. You have to draft well and often, and then let them gradually mature away from the prying lights and eviscerating rushes of the highlight talents in the NHL. 

This coming season will need to see steady progression from
Ramage and Wotherspoon for them to continue developing as NHL prospects, while Kulak, Culkin and Sieloff will be cutting their teeth in the AHL. The rest will be expected to take on a greater role with their respective junior teams in their veteran years or find their feet as they enter the NCAA system. 

The blueline remains the weak point of the Flames
development model, with no strong blue-chip prospects looking like they will
emerge and the typically long development curve for young blueliners. There is
a glut of junior-range players graduating this season and next to the pro
ranks. However, it is likely to take a season and a half or two for most of
those prospects to show whether they are prepared for the NHL. Once they arrive
they will most likely need a veteran presence with whom to play in order to
ease their acclimation to the big leagues.

The Flames will likely graduate some of their 2013 forwards
to the NHL before any of the defensemen taken a year earlier are ready for the
show. In the meantime, Brodie will be ready to be a 1st pairing
defender when they arrive and Giordano, if he is still with the team, will
probably be sliding down to a good 2nd pairing defender, barring
injury or rapid decline. Wideman and Smid should either be gone or nearly there
and Russell will probably have departed. This leaves two, maybe three roster
spots. The Flames will need to graduate defenders slowly, one at a time, which
means they’ll need to find one or two NHL-ready bodies in the next year or two
to fill some of these spots. Drafting Noah Hanifin this June would change
their prospect landscape significantly.

More than any other area of the franchise, defense is going
to require some work in both the short and long-term. This is going to become a problem if the Flames rely on Brodie and an aging Giordano for the next three years without anyone else coming up behind them to help shoulder the load.

  • Derzie

    Amen. Dog’s breakfast in the D group for sure. It was why I was furious with the draft this year. Hunter Smith is the shining example of ‘should have picked a D in that spot’. Not happy with Treliving at the draft. I hope his master plan gets clear real quick.

    • SavardianSpinorama

      While it would have been nice to pick up a few more D in the draft, by all accounts this was a pretty weak year for prospects, defensemen or otherwise.

      Picking up Brandon Hickey was a reasonable choice, and I don’t have an issue with the Flames’ decision to draft Hunter Smith where they did. Sam Cosentino (whose forgotten more about hockey than I will ever know) had Smith rated in the first round.

      As for being shy on D, which the Flames clearly are, there really wasn’t any reason for the team to go after any of the free agent defenseman this year, as the FA pool was about as unspectacular as this year’s draft. Besides, what would upgrading the Flames’ D at this point accomplish? An extra four or five points in the standings? Maybe?

      The Flames have forward prospects and plenty of cap room. If and when it looks like the team is close to a playoff spot, I am quite sure their defensive deficiencies will be addressed.

      Don’t judge Treliving on one draft, and don’t forget while he’s an overseer, he’s not about to undermine the scouting staff to the point where their hard work is thrown out the window because he thinks he’s smarter than they are. Treliving isn’t here by accident. He’s a manager because he’s smart enough to let the people under him do what they get paid to do.

  • Greg

    I think a trade has to be in our future. There’s a lot of defencemens names out there, and trading away one of our many forward prospects to get one would make a heck of a lot of sense.

  • RexLibris

    Good read and well researched!

    I’m a bit more optimistic about Kanzig than you are after watching him in Penticton, I admit a small sample size.

    In order to balance the talent pool better I see the Flames trading 1-3 top forward prospects for similar defensive prospects. It may be a painful exercise for fans but a need for the organization.

    • RexLibris

      Kanzig didn’t really appear to dominate the pace of the play when I saw him.

      He tried to dominate physically, which he should to some extent because he is playing against other junior-age-range players.

      But the failure of him to adapt his game to something other than using his bulk as a primary defensive strategic mechanism puts him behind the learning curve which means that he’ll have that much more to learn in the coming years (skating and positioning, having been mentioned in his scouting reports).

  • RexLibris

    I’d go after Brenden Dillon right now.

    He’d be a perfect dovetail to Brodie and would likely develop at a pace to replace Giordano as he ages or heads off to unrestricted free agency.

    Currently in a contract dispute with Dallas and Calgary has picks and prospects to offer and cap space to sign him.

      • RexLibris

        He’s a young defender who played a lot of minutes against tougher competition than any other Dallas defenseman and produced positive possession numbers relative to his team.

        He outpaced Goligoski, Daley, and Jordie Benn and left Gonchar, Rome and Connauton in the dust.

        I’d put him in the Jeff Petry range, but younger.

        What would it take to get him?

        Not sure what the Flames have that realistically would suit Jim Nill’s needs.

        I could give you a ballpark from the perspective of the Oilers’ assets.

        Maybe Petry and a pair of prospects like Marincin and Lander for Dillon and Cody Eakin would work.

        Nill would want an immediate replacement for Dillon and the Flames just don’t have anyone in that price range. It’s either Giordano or Brodie, which would be an overpay, or Smid, Wideman or Russell which is simply not enough.

        And the Flames don’t have the prospects to make it work. The Stars don’t need forwards and the Flames can’t spare the defensemen to make it work.

        • SavardianSpinorama

          Okay, so we can’t trade for Dillon, and I don’t think Burke would give the “okay” to sign Dillon to an offer sheet, given his previous outspoken history when Kevin Lowe signed RFA Dustin Penner.

          So, what about New Jersey as a trading partner? Their forward ranks read like an old folks home, not to mention they were one of the lowest scoring teams in the league last year.

          Perhaps the Flames could pry away Eric Gelinas in exchange for adding some (young) forward depth to the Devils?

          • RexLibris

            I’d keep an eye on the waiver wire for now, although the last thing the Flames need are more 3rd pairing d-men.

            I think this will be addressed during the season.

            Let’s imagine that one of Gaudreau, Granlund, or Baertschi makes the jump this year and the Flames get Glencross to waive his NTC (I’ll come back to that later).

            You move Glencross at the deadline to a team high in the playoff order and looking to solidify their chances and get back a defender who is a year away from the NHL, like a Brandon Gormley or some such.

            Another option is if the Flames look like they have several forwards ready to make the jump, then maybe they move one or two for a defensemen but those tend to happen in the off-season. Not many teams have blueliners to spare mid-year.

            About that NTC. Things may be different this time around, but Burke has said in the past that he is loathe to ask players to waive clauses because he feels it is the team going back on its word. The player and team added them in good faith and they should be respected.

            We’ll see how things shake down with Glencross, but that is how I see this thing being addressed mid-season.

  • RexLibris

    Good summary and hard to argue with you conclusions. The Flames have been a bit unlucky (Erixson) and bone headed (Sutter trade of Phaneuf, picking Jankowski over Maata and trading 1st rounder to Phoenix in Jokannen trade who picked Gormly). Ironic as defence was the team’s strong point for many years.

    • RexLibris

      The got both barrels in Erixon/Gormley.

      They made the pick for Jokinen conditional and then chose Erixon in the first year, deferring the pick to the following when they actually finished lower in the standings and the Coyotes could take Gormley.

      Then Erixon bolts and they are left with Horak and a pair of picks (Wotherspoon and Granlund).

      Diminishing returns.

        • RexLibris

          Erixon’s been moved a few times, but he’s only 51 games into his NHL career.

          Either he is a draft bust (which is on the Flames), or a failed prospect (which is on the teams who had a hand in his development and himself).

          Gormley is going to make his NHL debut this year, I’d expect. He has had some good years individually but played on a horrible Pirates team last year which obscures his progress.

          I think Gormley is more likely to have a career than Wotherspoon. Granlund still has a long way to go.

          Don’t forget Horak. He’s part of the Smid trade, so you get something coming back there.

          • RexLibris

            “Don’t forget Horak. He’s part of the Smid trade, so you get something coming back there.”

            Huh? Horak went to the Oilers and they gave him a qualifying offer but he bolted for the KHL so he is still Oilers property if he decides to come back.

          • RexLibris

            Erixon to NYR for Horak and two 2nd round pick (Granlund and Wotherspoon).

            Horak and Brossoit to Edmonton for Olivier Roy and Smid.

            Ergo, Erixon and a 6th round pick (Brossoit) for Granlund, Wotherspoon, Smid and Roy.

  • smith

    You are actually higher on the flames defensive prospects than I am. I think there is very little there. Witherspoon as a bottom pairing and maybe this years picks, but Kanzig, Ramage, Roy and Sieloff are very underwhelming to me. I do have vague hopes for Kulak and Culkin.

    Yes please to Dillon, but I strongly suspect the Stars would be wanting a lot for him.

    • Parallex

      Frankly, I don’t think anyone there screams even “top 4 defenseman”. I just don’t see a surefire top 4 guy there, that’s not to say that there won’t be one but if there is it’ll be a pleasant surprise. Although I have a somewhat of a good feeling about Kulak.

    • RexLibris

      Agreed…By the time this D ages the D prospects will have developed nicely in the AHL.

      Good to hear that Wideman is playing better….if Wideman has a better season than last and Gio and Wideman play a full season the D will be better than average and better than last year. Trading D prospects when they come out of junior is jsut plain stupid. Oher than the first pick it was a bead year for D-men in the draft.

  • Really. really tiny sample size but the guy that impressed me at development camp was Gilmourm, in position, one or two hard strides to get out of trouble and more often than not a good outlet pass right on the money. If you can get that out of your third pairing you could be just fine.

    • RexLibris

      I’ve always like NCAA defenders on account of how their game generally develops. It relies less on brute force and more on thinking the game.

      Defense is a reactive position, so you have to be thinking constantly.

      Prospects who learn to do that early and effectively usually have professional careers.

    • RexLibris

      Me neither, but the information on junior players is limited to say the least.

      It has to be taken as one part of a player and then broken down on a seasonal basis.

      I didn’t include it here, but I did take into account the variations that come into play per season. A nasty +/- one year may be due to the club tanking it and the player being in the unfortunate position of taking a lead role on a bad team.

  • Jeff Lebowski

    Name the last first round d pick still with the team? It may lead to the answer of the question why don’t flames d prospects look good or as good. This is the aspect people fail to realize. Comparing performance of forwards (which has been a first round focus) to d is …. Wrong headed.

    Forwards are usually judged by the end result of plays or rushes. They make the loudest “noise”. Goal, no goal or for the quants shot, no shot.

    D on the offensive side, develop the play (zone exit, zone entry) but their contributions are quickly forgotten by the limited attention spans of fans. D is a highly more nuanced position. People are just ill equipped to evaluate them because D’s contributions are less noisy. People use Subban as the standard because he makes noise like forwards. They forget all the dumb moves he still does.

    Back door play recognition, smart poke checks, great gaps and angles are missed by people. So if our kids aren’t noisy like PK they must suck. Sorry but that’s straight up idiotic. People do not appreciate the little things d must do. They simply don’t get it.

    Culkin shows remarkable poise under duress playing the point. He quickly moves the puck to good spots. Doesn’t kill plays rather makes them. Kulak shoots and jumps in nicely.

    Players aren’t perfect right from the hop. D have a lot more to be accountable for. Stop brow beating them. Patience ffs.

    These other kids are marinating just fine to me. The utter lack of patience by people describes the fact they have zero idea what they’re talking about

    • RexLibris

      Out of curiosity, where do you hear the impatience coming from?

      I ask because we’ve discussed several times here that you need five years post-draft to really evaluate prospects and I haven’t heard much push-back on that front in awhile.

      Is it coming from other media sources in the Calgary market? I don’t access that so wouldn’t have any information on the Flames’ fan zeitgeist outside of this forum.

      • Jeff Lebowski

        message boards. fan’s just trashing kids after watching a scrimmage or prospect’s game.

        it’s frustrating.

        yes – it’s important to keep expounding that time frame. however the instant gratification culture that demands perfection right away has a lot of air in their lungs.

    • RexLibris

      Problem we had was Sutter never ever traded for high end prospects. He gave up draft picks to acquire the older missing pieces all the time.
      I do agree with patience & letting things develop. A lot of kids being looked at in this article are exactly the same as TJ Brodie at that stage & now there is chatter on how he might challenge for a Norris Trophy. We need to see what develops this year. Aside from from Gio & Brodie, all of our blue liners are moveable if one of these kids pull a Brodie type year. We are definitely positioned for that to happen.

      I can’t believe people are dumping on Treliving already. Dmen do take longer to see what you really have & we do have a lot of forward prospects on the cusp of being coveted by other teams. I am really hoping we see some big steps made this year by several of our highly hopeful young forward group so we can can make a great hockey trade & address this issue. Obviously, we are really lacking in the 1st rounder pedigree of defensive prospects. I am really hoping a top 3 pick next year will address this in a huge way. We either draft Hanafin or we free up a very valuable forward asset to get what we need because we will have either Mcdavid or Eichel.

      Another note, I love the fact Money is looking like he is taking his physical conditioning & size to the next level & he can overcome the sophomore thing.

  • Derzie

    It is not about instant gratification but rather about probability of success. If progress is not shown, the trajectory is impacted. We may win an unexpected lottery but the sober, realistic view on D is ‘outlook not so good’ (to quote a famous 8-ball toy).

    • Jeff Lebowski

      Ok. But why do people extrapolate on straight lines only? Sometimes there is ‘S’ curve growth.

      Human dynamics are not constrained to linear mechanics. There is interplay. This is not economics where we can hold variables constant ceretus pare-whatever.

      Mathematical models, like economic models, deal with abstraction. Divorced from reality. Made to fit. Every object obeys their own laws of motion especially when you put a bunch of objects interacting with each other together.

      You can’t stop the atoms of one object if you want to look at another just because it’s less noisy that way. I mean you can do that, but it is terribly inaccurate especially if attempting to describe the real world.

  • SavardianSpinorama

    Good article, but there was one statement that made me spew coffee all over my monitor. Or would have had I been drinking coffee and been prone to that sort of spontaneous, overt reaction of incredulity.

    That statement was this, from the Eric Roy paragraph:

    The Flames have had prospects like this before in Keith Aulie…

    I’m sorry, but that really showed a lack of familiarity. And also foretells some severe disappointment to come from your quarter, since it implies you think Aulie can skate. And pass. And think.

    Is it possible you meant to put that statement in the Kanzig section? If so, I forgive you the oversight. But Roy and Aulie have practically nothing in common. Roy is a large, smart, mobile offensive defenseman who is, by all accounts, ghastly in his own end. Aulie is slow, [unintelligent], and enormous.

    • RexLibris

      I’ve read conflicting reports on Aulie over his time as a prospect/player.

      When he was included in the Phaneuf deal there were a few who thought that he was the sleeper who could make the thing really blow up in Sutter’s face.

      His original scouting reports via Hockey News read:

      …Has a calm demeanor, and usually makes the safe play. Skates very well for a big man. There’s also upside here as a physical blueliner. Displays a little all-around ability, as well. Can log bit minutes….Doesn’t use his size enough. Needs to improve his coordination, game-to-game consistency and decision-making with the puck in order to make an impact at the NHL level.

      Later on his development seemed to hit a wall in the Leafs’ organization and Cory Pronman was surprised when Yzerman traded Carter Ashton straight across.

      What reminded me of Aulie in reading Roy’s scouting reports was that he was generally well though-of as a bigger defenseman and was believed to have decent mobility. Roy is not Aulie’s size, but on the Flames’ defensive depth chart he is one of the largest prospects they have. There was a time when Aulie was one of the best defensive prospects the Flames had. I believe Roy will become that a year from now.

      Starting out on this process I was relatively unfamiliar with the prospects and so read at minimum two scouting reports on each one. Nothing in Roy’s report suggested that he was a defensive liability, rather the opposite.

      Now, this last point isn’t necessarily directed at you but is just an observation: I’ve noticed that there has been a trend with the organization’s past defensive prospects who have been traded in Erixon and Aulie that perhaps is extending to their current group.

      The comments of fans are generally derisive towards Erixon and Aulie’s talents as hockey players suggesting they are not going to develop into NHL regulars. There seems to be something similar, albeit to a lesser degree, circling the popular opinion of the current blueline prospect corps.

      Perhaps this suggests that the Flames do a poor job of identifying, drafting and developing defensemen.

  • Burnward

    Anyone else have absolutely no luck in telling which was Kulak and Culkin during the prospects camp?

    I kept getting them mixed up. I think one of them looked okay. Or maybe that was just the sum of their parts.

  • RealMcHockeyReturns

    Heard better things about Kanzig in last year liked improved skating, balance, offense, passing so more optimistic there (maybe B-C prospect) while Wotherspoon and Seiloff seem like A prospects to play top4-5 and Kulak, Culkin, Ramage, Roy and Ollas Mattson may be B-C prospects to be 5-7D.

  • SavardianSpinorama

    There were 68 games lost between Wideman, Giordano and Russell last season. Still, the Flames finished in the top ten in scoring from the blue line. That’s not bad for a team so many here are concerned with.

    There is plenty of time to pick up defensive prospects with offensive upside.

    And while I am not going to disagree 100% with anyone who says the Flames should have focused on defensive depth when they drafted McDonald or Smith, maybe the Flames looked at the alternatives and didn’t like what they saw.

    Maybe the Flames should have bypassed Bennett and went straight after Haydn Fleury because they have no defensive depth?

    The Flames scouts spent thousands of labour hours deciding upon the best picks available, in the same manner many of us would spend on a draft list for a hockey pool (minus the 1000’s of hours labour bit). Would you rather they be lukewarm about a defenseman prospect vs being high on a goalie or forward? There comes a time when a team has to forgo needs and choose the best player. If the scouting staff has done their job correctly, they can turn their best picks into a trade for defensive help down the road.

    It’s really okay if the Flames suck this year, though it may cost Hartley his job, which would be a shame. I think Hartley is well aware he may be nothing more than a place-holder for the next coach, not unlike Deryk Engelland or David Jones holding the fort until the next crop of kids graduate to the NHL.

    People clamor for a re-build, and when it finally happens, everyone chimes in that the Flames could have gone about things better if they’d only listened to all the exceptionally smart, hockey-savvy people posting here on Flames Nation.

    As far as it goes, until present management trades a Doug Gilmour and four other players for a bag of pucks (hello Doug Risebrough, you tool), I am more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    • RexLibris

      A healthy blueline is partially why I’ve predicted the Flames could finish the season somewhere between 26th and 22nd overall.

      Goaltending is better, the middle is fair to good, the wings are not spectacular but functional and they have a solid 1st pairing defense.

  • Was there this morning. Temo was quick. Didn’t take notes but off the top of my head here are a few observations. (Typing on iPad so sorry for typos)

    Stajan jones and glencross played together and were pretty quiet.

    Monahan looks big and was super steady. I would say that he was noticeable for size confidence and always making right play. His line mate Colborne took puck to the net a few times and was alright

    Agostino had like three goals in the two games today and was all around the puck.

    Couldn’t help but notice wolf. Rang one off the bar. Mixed it up. Levelled Cundari in the corner and was just a beast. I’d say he’s competing with Bouma for the fourth line job and he has an outside shot. He comes as advertised as a big strong winger with decent skills and average skating. I’m sure Burke loves this guy.

    Byron was buzzing all over the ice throwing hits and all around the puck. He looks like a guy fighting for his job.

    I was really impressed with Raymond who is fast smooth and made things happen. He was one of the better vets.

    I also noticed that Hathaway (I think that’s his name) kid. He is decently fast and he broke in wide on a breakaway.

    Best Dman by a considerable amount was Wideman. He made terrific outlet passes during both games. He also played very physical. I came away impressed by his skill and compete level. Maybe just maybe he has a big bounce back season.

    Also on d and tough to miss is the giant Yonkman. He took a massive run at Johnny. Though he missed the boards were rattled and maybe so was Johnny. Johhny was okay making heads up passes but I would say that he didn’t quite seem himself in the one game he played. That may have been because half his shifts seemed to be with Grats.

    Interesting was that. Fram played forward on the right side and did a couple I
    Of things to get noticed.

    Also on D was Seiloff’s who stirred things up. Made a few nice plays and had a couple of hits. He looks like a player that will really benefit from AHL time.

    Hurdler had the goal of the night on a one timer from Monahan or Raymond.

    In goal Carr was solid.

    truthfully it’s a bit tough to see what is happening at the far end and it seemed like most goals were scored down there. Linemates aren’t consistent and it’s a little tough to get a great read. Generally you watch and check your sheet when someone does something to get noticed.

    I thought Granlund was pretty good and in the second game Knight was playing with Bollig and McGratton and won face offs and provided a steady presence.

    If anybody has any questions I can do my best to fill you in. I know that people around here are hungry for updates.

    Of course it goes without saying that this is one persons perspective from a very small sample size!

  • No post for today’s TC scrimmages, so here’s some recent play to consider…

    Flames 2014 Training Camp
    20 September, Game 01

    Team Vernon? (Black Sweaters)
    04 Kris Russell LD
    08 Joe Colbourne C/RW
    18 Matt Stajan C
    19 David Jones RW
    20 Curtis Glencross LW
    27 Sven Baertschi LW
    29 Deryk Engelland RD
    36 Raphael Diaz RD
    37 Joni Ortio G
    45 David Wolf LW
    47 Brandon Magee C
    55 John Ramage RD
    58 Ben Hanowski RW
    60 Markus Granlund C
    64 Garnet Hathaway RW
    67 Ryan Culkin LD
    80 Curtis Gedig LD
    86 Josh Jooris RW
    Starting: 18 – 19 – 20, 04 – 29, 37

    Team Nieuwendyk? (White Sweaters)
    06 Dennis Wideman RD
    15 Ladislav Smid LD
    17 Lance Bouma LW
    21 Mason Raymond LW
    23 Sean Monahan C
    24 Jiri Hudler LW
    32 Paul Byron LW
    35 Brad Thiessen G
    38 Nolan Yonkman RD
    40 Doug Carr G
    42 Mark Cundari LD
    46 Bill Arnold C
    50 Patrick Sieloff LD
    51 Ken Agostino LW
    61 Brett Kulak LD
    62 Austin Carroll RW
    65 Turner Elson C
    79 Michael Ferland LW
    85 Jason Fram RD
    Starting: 21 – 23 – 24, 06 – 15, 40

    The game was split into 2-25 minute periods of continuous play. Overall there was lots of hustle, it was high tempo and generally good play, with numerous hits and a bit chippy. Passing was mixed, with at least 3-4 terrible passes into the middle that were intercepted but otherwise some reasonably good passing. The best two lines were the two starting lines. Final score was 2-2, with goals(as far as I could see) by: DJones, SBaertschi, KAgostino and ???

    Here’s my take on individuals, with stars given for a good individual play:

    *****Jooris; Hustling all over the ice, especially on the forecheck and on the attack.

    ****Baertschi; Several good rushes and attentive around the net, scored a GOAL. Agostino; Excellent all-around, back-check, fore-check and driving the net, scored a GOAL. Ramage; Several strong defensive plays, outlet passes and was a leader on breakouts from behind the net.

    ***Jones; Good hustle on the rush and on the attack, scored a GOAL. Monahan; Excellent on draws, driving with the puck and back-checking. Hudler; Quick, good passing and puck-handling. Wolf; Feisty, several hits and good back-checking, also rattled one off the post on a quick release from the slot. Had a run-in with Sieloff behind the net and both backed down from a fight after a couple face washes… Carroll; Strong in front of the net and on the cycle. Ferland; Strong overall play, couple of good outlet passes, cycling and carrying the puck down the wing.

    **Russell; D positioning. Wideman; Good D and outlet passes. Diaz; Hit and shot. Yonkman; Hit and board work. Cundari; general D play. Hanowski; Strong on the boards. Hathaway; Hit and general hustle.

    *Colbourne (driving play), Bouma (hit), Thiessen, Carr, Arnold (on the Fore-check), Granlund, Kulak (D out of zone), Elson (speed) and Fram.

    These are what I noticed and noted, but it was hard to see everything. I didn’t notice anyone necessarily out of place. Only other thing of note was that it seemed that Baertschi really played an up and down game on the wing rather than a more creative flow game I seem to recall from previously. It was almost as if he was “thinking” the game, waiting for his spot to jump in and make a play, which was also effective… Overall I’d say Agostino was the best player on the ice, good at both ends and scored! Of the Try-outs Yonkman was strong, especially along the boards and behind the net…

  • RexLibris

    Flames 2014 Training Camp
    20 September, Game 02

    Team McDonald? (Red Sweaters)
    01 Jonas Hiller G
    05 Mark Giordano LD
    07 TJ Brodie L/RD
    10 Corbin Knight C
    16 Brian McGratton RW
    18 Matt Stajan C
    19 David Jones RW
    22 Devin Setoguchi RW
    25 Brandon Bollig LW
    43 Dustin Stevenson LD
    47 Brandon Magee C
    48 Bryce Van Brabant LW
    52 Morgan Klimchuk LW
    53 Johnny Gaudreau LW
    54 Sena Acolatse RD
    56 Mathieu Tousignant C
    59 Max Reinhart C
    71 Hunter Smith RW
    72 Mason McDonald G
    73 Keegan Kanzig LD
    Starting: 53 – 59 – 22?, ?? – 33, 01

    Team Nieuwendyk? (White Sweaters)
    06 Dennis Wideman RD
    15 Ladislav Smid LD
    17 Lance Bouma LW
    21 Mason Raymond LW
    23 Sean Monahan C
    24 Jiri Hudler LW
    32 Paul Byron LW
    35 Brad Thiessen G
    38 Nolan Yonkman RD
    42 Mark Cundari LD
    46 Bill Arnold C
    50 Patrick Sieloff LD
    51 Ken Agostino LW
    61 Brett Kulak LD
    62 Austin Carroll RW
    79 Michael Ferland LW
    85 Jason Fram ***RW***
    Starting: 21 – 23 – 24, 06 – 15, 01

    The majority of Team Nieuwendyk played their second scrimmage of the morning, as well as Stajan, Jones and Magee for Team McDonald. Interestingly Jason Fram lined up on RW for this scrimmage versus RD in the first. He was much more involved and effective as a winger.

    Perhaps because some were tired, and several replacements joined Team McDonald, the game started pretty scattered, with little flow or completed passes. Midway through the first a few lines started to find their way, especially the Raymond, Monahan and Hudler line who also played together in scrimmage 01, who had several excellent tic-tac-toe plays resulting in goals and terrific chances. That line was by far the best on the ice and they seemed to get better and better as the game wore on.

    In contrast Gaudreau seemed to have many line mates, starting with Setoguchi and Reinhart and ending with Setoguchi and Tousignant. They never really got it together which showed in missed passes and opportunities. On one particular rush Setoguchi carried the puck down the right side with Gaudreau in his shadow about 8 feet behind. Once Seto gained the line and the corner, he dropped it to JH and went to the net. JH made a couple moves then passed to the front of the net but the opportunity had passed. It was strange. Obviously JH likes to carry it in so they need to work it out between them to open up more ice and use each other effectively. As the game progressed 2 defenders would simply box out “trap” JH once he got over the blue line and with the line not working together it was an easy takeaway for the D. Not sure of line combos, and of course Backlund and Bennett are both missing due to nursing minor injuries, so it’ll be interesting to see how this develops.

    Agostino continued his excellent play, even better than the first scrimmage, scoring 2 goals. Carroll was also again very good, also scoring a goal, and Yonkman was again very strong behind the net.

    A final summary note on the D. Both Giordano and TJ Brodie played in this game, though I had to double-check re: Giordano. Brodie had a superb long break-out pass springing a forward for a breakaway but otherwise the two were hardly noticeable. In the end I decided the two were playing so exceptional that almost every time they were able to break up the rush against at the blue line so I never ended up seeing them battle it out in the corners or behind the net, having quickly stolen the puck and got it moving in the opposite direction before I had a chance to check my lineup sheet for player numbers and instead focusing on the ensuing counterattack. Probably the same for some other D, especially Engelland who guys around me noticed as “good skating”, “tough” etc but again I hardly noticed him….

    The final score was a 4-0 shutout for Team Red.

    Here’s what I did notice:

    *****Hudler; Strong line play, scored on an excellent shot off the post form the slot.

    ****Raymond; once he figured out his line mates he started making excellent short, crisp passes and using his speed to effect. Agostino; Another game of excellent all-around play, including 2 goals. Carroll; Passing, effective net presence and he scored.

    ***Knight; Excellent on face-offs and D, but the line was ineffective in the offensive zone. Not sure of line mates?

    **TJBrodie; excellent D and passing, Monahan; strong line play, Brookbank; Strong in the corners, Yonkman; tough D and in the corners, Gaudreau; puck handling and passing, Kulak; General D and carrying the puck, and Fram; line rushes from his new position on the wing…

    *Smid; seemed more confidant with the puck than last year, McGratton; energy and working tough in the offensive zone, Byron; suing his speed for breakaway chances and good fore-check, Thiessen; Magee; and finally Reinhart; poor at FO and played mostly with Bollig and McGratton,

    As a final comment, it seems clear a few players have really stepped up their games and are making a strong bid to make the team. These are headed by Agostino, and to a lessor degree Carroll who each played 2 good games. Obviously there are some injuries to other key players, and just as obvious, figuring out effective line combinations continue. The Monahan-Hudler-Raymond and Stajan-Jones-Glencross lines seem set but outside of them its back to the mixmaster.

    After the split squad games Sunday I expect at least a third of the guys cut and sent back to Junior/AHL teams, and then the real competition begins to finalize the starting line-ups for opening day.

  • RexLibris

    FYI

    Edmonton Oilers ‏@EdmontonOilers
    Both @RNH_93 and @Drat_29 will be in the #Oilers lineup Sunday night against Calgary on home ice. Full lineups to be announced tomorrow

    I’m hearing the Flames are sending the circus north and probably keeping the actual hockey players at home to entertain the paying audience.

    • EugeneV

      are the Oilers not doing exactly the same thing. Each team must dress at least 8 NHL players(definition is rather interesting) So the Flames have by my count 15 forwards that meet the bill 2 of which have not practiced yet(Bennett and Backs), 10 defencemen who qualify I think and 2 goalies. I would expect to see Stajan’s line in Edmonton(reading here it sounds like Stajan, GlenX, Jones) and Monahan’s line here(with Raymond and Hudler), I suspect our new shiny toys will be here(Johnny and whoever he has been with) which means I would guess one of either McG or Bollig staying in town. It will be interesting to see what both organizations do tonight, so if the Flames are sending the circus in Edmonton should we expect to see the Freak Show from Edmonton or the Clowns.

  • Burnward

    Your blog has biased underpinning’s. Take Chad Billins for example. You state he has +10 and .55 PPG and that this means he is smart defensively and offensively gifted. Then you state Cundari is +11 and .42 PPG and yet this implies poor defense. Perhaps if you would have witnessed some of Cundari’s games while playing for the Chicago Wolves, you may of had a different and more fair opinion.

    • RexLibris

      Ramo is likely to be the Calgary Flames backup goaltender this coming season playing 20 or more games behind starter Jonas Hiller.

      There.

      Happy?

      Sheesh.

      😉

      I’ve noticed some of the regulars for the Oilers have been quiet this camp as well. I think its just a byproduct of having so many bodies and storylines to chase and limited time and space to do it.