Flames Cap Situation Moving Forward

The Calgary Flames had so much cap space heading into 2013-14 they were actively looking for ways to acquire other club’s bad deals in return for assets. This coming year, even with raises to a bunch of pending RFA’s and a free agent signing or two, the org will still be south of the cap ceiling. 

The sense is that the Flames have a lot of budget to work with, but the truth is more complicated than that if we look two years down the road. We’re reading tea leaves a bit, but it’s possible for the Calgary’s cap situation goes from casual to dire in the space of a couple of the seasons. That’s relevant now because implications may well stretch backwards to influence their decision making this summer. 

Flames Cap Next 3 Seasons


Here’s how things look starting next season. All numbers via NHLNumbers

The red squares represent current Flames players who will go UFA down the road (and, I assume, will not be retained by the team). The player cap hits highlighted in green represent guys I would consider expendable given the team’s needs and their performance vs. salary ratio. I have given what I consider reasonable raises to guys who will likely stick around.

The salary cap increases by an assumed 5% in 2016-17 and 2017-18 which might actually be optimistic.

Next year

Assuming the Flames sign Mikael Backlund ($4.0M), Lance Bouma ($2.75M), a forward free agent (Byron or a Byron replacement at $1.75) and a blueline free agent ($4.5M), Calgary should still be around $5M clear of the cap ceiling. We don’t yet know if Ladislav Smid will be moved to LTIR indefinitely or not, so for now we will include his cap hit. You will also notice the rookie’s cap hits include all of their bonus dollars to be safe. 

Clearly the club still has budget room to play with in the upcoming season. The problems begin the year after that. 

2016-17 and Onwards

This is when a lot of the really big raises start to kick in. If my assumptions for Mark Giordano ($7.5M), Johnny Gaudreau ($6.0M), Sean Monahan ($6.0) and Jiri Hudler or a Hudler replacement ($5.75M) are in the ballpark, Calgary’s forward corps suddenly get about $10M more expensive over the previous season. When you add in Giordano’s probable kick up to $7M+ and a raise for Kris Russell, the Flames are suddenly almost $7M over my proposed cap of $82M, even if Joni Ortio is Calgary’s cheapish starter at $3M. 

Things get a little looser for the team in 2017-18 with the removal of Smid, Engelland and Wideman from the roster, but even then the club is scraping up against the cap ceiling (assuming the club adds at least one more $5M defender to plug the hole). 


Having a lot of good young players is a good problem to have for a rebuilding team. That said, it is still a problem and one the team will have to face probably a lot sooner than many would have anticipated just 12 months ago. 

Here’s some the implications that jump out to me when I look at Calgary’s salary graph.

1.) Get competitive soon

Probably the worst case scenario for a rebuilding club is having to pay a bunch of young talent while not actually being competitive. Just look a few hours north to see how problematic it can be to be a bottom barrel cap team. 

Due to certain circumstances, Calgary is only getting two ELC years out of Sam Bennett and Johnny Gaudreau. On top of that, established veterans like Giordano, Brodie, Backlund are set to get paid a lot more than they were making very soon. All this means the Flames are poised to have the the salary of a contender within a couple of seasons. They should aim to have the performance to match. 

How do they do that? Beyond natural progression from the kids, they’ll need at least 2 more capable defenders at even strength and a couple of decent RWers, at least one of whom is excellent-to-elite. These considerations should start to guide the org’s budget management and player acquisition decisions starting this summer. 

2.) Smid has to go away

If the erstwhile Oiler isn’t an LTIR candidate, then the Flames front office has to find a way to get his money off the books one way or the other. Even if he is able to get back on the ice, his dollars and performance are grossly discordant. The team is going to need to put that cap space to better use very soon. 

3.) Start shopping the expendables

The team should start to test the market for many of the guys marked in green above. There isn’t a huge impetus to move Bollig since his deal ends after this upcoming season (aside from the fact he’s redundant), but eventually the Flames aren’t going to be able to afford to pay support guys more than they are worth.

The prime candidates are Deryk Engelland and Mason Raymond this year, particularly Raymond given how crowded the bottom of the Flames roster is (and how little the coaching staff trusts him). Freeing up his dollars will be important when the kids get their second contracts. Engelland is a guy who could be phased out the year after depending on how the blueline depth is looking.

Similarly, Matt Stajan might start to seem like an expensive appendix come 2016-17. I think he’s a useful guy for one more season, but after that it will be hard to justify paying him over $3M to (more than likely) play fourth line minutes. 

4.) Consider shopping Dennis Wideman

 If the Flames manage to shore up the blueline over the next couple of summers (which should be their primary concern), Dennis Wideman is going to be paid a lot of money to be a PP specialist. His heroic turn this year has no doubt resurrected his previously flagging trade market value, so it might be advisable for the Flames to trade him sooner rather that later.

It’s a near certainty that Wideman won’t replicate his offensive totals from this season (he turns 33 next year and enjoyed a career high SH%) and any kind of meaningful downturn will crater his perceived value given his contract. If Brad Treliving is savvy, he could probably spend those dollars more efficiently on a younger player with more upside. 

As such, Calgary should at least test the market to see what kind of offers they can get for him. 


The big 2014-15 season for many of the Calgary players has given hope back to a moribund franchise. It also was the start of a ticking clock on their cap budget flexibility. Treliving has the buffer of this upcoming summer and regular season to prepare, but he could be facing some much tougher decisions come the off-season of 2016. 

  • Reidja

    This is all completely true but that doesn’t stop it from feeling like a bad hangover…

    I would agree with shopping any of the guys you’ve mentioned. Even a few others with higher value (Hudler, Colborn, Jooris, Bouma). It’s tough to do, but the love affair has to end with the season. Let the messing with chemistry narratives commence.

  • Ramskull

    Nice summary Kent. The only problems I have with it are the $10M and $13M tied up in free agents in the final two years. This seems a little high in my opinion. I also think that you can get a better bridge deal done with Ortio. I don’t think he’ll get $3M a year after next year unless he’s lights out (which could happen). Monahan and Johnny will be tough to sign to bridge deals given their importance but we’ll have to see where Bennett is at before I see him getting $6M a year.

  • Ramskull

    Oiler fan here. I have a question for you guys… I see you have Ortio slotted in next year. I presume letting Ramo walk because he is UFA, and Hiller has 1 year left.

    Do you guys like Ramo? Is he consistent enough to be a #1 goalie? People here are talking about him as a free agent option. I didn’t watch enough Flames games this year to know, but he looked pretty good in that Ducks series…. In your opinion could he carry a team to at least average if he had to play 55+ games?

    I realize our D is a complete sh1t show so it might make Carey Price look bad, but… assuming that stuff away, do you guys think Ramo is a legit #1 goalie?

    Man that Brodie contract is sweet. You lucky SOBs…. We pay Nikitin that much. LFAO!

  • Purple Hazze

    Oiler fan here. I have a question for you guys… I see you have Ortio slotted in next year. I presume letting Ramo walk because he is UFA, and Hiller has 1 year left.

    Do you guys like Ramo? Is he consistent enough to be a #1 goalie? People here are talking about him as a free agent option. I didn’t watch enough Flames games this year to know, but he looked pretty good in that Ducks series…. In your opinion could he carry a team to at least average if he had to play 55+ games?

    I realize our D is a complete shiat show so it might make Carey Price look bad, but… assuming that stuff away, do you guys think Ramo is a legit #1 goalie?

    Man that Brodie contract is sweet. You lucky SOBs…. We pay Nikitin that much. LFAO!

    • Byron Bader

      He goes through 3-5 game segments where he’s incredible. Nothing gets passed him. But, for the most part, I would say he’s only ok. He’s a decent back-up but I’m not sure how he would fare as a number 1.

      Scrivens and Fasth looked pretty good on really good teams before coming over to the Oil. I’m not sure Ramo is any different from one of those guys. Like you said, unless it’s Carey Price, you still need the d in front of him to provide a lot of help.

    • Parallex

      I like Ramo. Frankly, if the Oilers are interested in one of our Goalies I’d rather resign Ramo and trade you Hiller.

      As to your question, yes I think Ramo is a legit starting goalie… honestly thou I’d think the Oilers would want a guy who has that reputation league wide (Niemi for example). He won’t give you consistent above average goaltending but he can give you average goaltending in the aggregate.

    • RickT

      There was a rolling graph of his SV% and Hiller’s superimposed on one of the articles.

      It basically showed that Ramo was slightly worse and a little less consistent than Hiller. However, by the eye he always seemed to look better (might be because he was goaltending a la Berra, and would make a spectacular save because he was out of position).

      Being able to play 1a / 1b seemed to work well for Ramo, and as he got more starts, it looked (again, eye test) to get more comfortable and consistent.

      I think if you could have him in a similar situation in Edmonton, I think he would be a great option.

      EDIT: and so I hope you don’t get him, so we can beat you relentlessly. 🙂

    • beloch

      I’d actually have preferred the Flames retain Ramo instead of Hiller. Hiller is at an age where he’s both more likely to be injured and more likely to regress. Ramo would be in his prime were it not for his extremely late introduction to the NHL. He improved in both of his seasons with the Flames and I have a feeling his best days are still ahead of him. Hiller is a very well optimized goalie, but Ramo has a tendency to put himself way out of position. That’s fixable and, if fixed, could make him a superior goalie to Hiller.

      The main reason why Ramo appears to be on the outside looking in is simply because Hiller has another year on his contract and Ortio’s contract is going to be one-way next season. If the Flames were to sign Ramo, they’d need to move Hiller. This would be smart asset management, but I doubt it will happen.

      If the Oilers can pick up Ramo for nothing, it’s a steal.

      • SmellOfVictory

        Interesting, thanks everyone for feedback. Unless you watch a goalie a lot us hard to get a read beyond stats which can be skewed by the team.

        People here are taking Anderson a lot which spooks me since he is 34 and we already got burned by a declining old Khabby. But lucky for us there are a ton of goalie options this summer in UFA and even guys like Talbot in NY. Maybe now that we don’t have the clowns driving the car some smart moves will be made and we can have a meaningful battle of Alberta!

    • OKG

      Ramo is good enough to be a #1 goaltender on a good defensive team.

      …Sorry, but the Oilers, and for that matter last year’s Flames (other than when Gio/Brodie were out there), were just not a good defensive team. So Ramo’s probably a bad fit.

      We’ve seen this season what happens when the Flames are getting destroyed by the other team in games like the second Ottawa game (they went up 0-4 on us) and the first Boston game (they went up 0-3 on us). But we’ve seen that when the Flames give him support and don’t let the other team just get breakaway after wide open in the slot after faceoff win snipe, that Ramo can not only make great saves, but his lack of size and his aggressive style are better suited for consistent defensive teams.

      FWIW I didn’t think there were many games Ramo truly “lost” for us with softies – the only one that really came to mind was @Buffalo during our losing streak where he simply should have been better.

  • Purple Hazze

    Great write up Kent! In the year end presser Treliving mentioned that they have a cap model going out a few years in advance so I’m assuming management is well aware of this situation and will manage the roster accordingly. I like the idea of shopping Wideman this summer for the reasons you already mentioned above, hopefully they can find a buyer.

  • wot96

    Why are you paying Sam Bennett that much? Is his ceiling not limited during the Elc, or are you including bonuses, which do count towards the cap? If the latter, why isn’t Johnny higher.

    Secondly, some/all of Smid’s contract may get buried if he is on long term. Note, I don’t hope for that as the guy is a warrior and a decent person, no matter how convenient it might be.

    I agree with your conclusions. Good article.

  • Burnward

    Or. You don’t spend that money on FA’s and build from within.

    Morrison, Gillies, Wotherspoon, Hickey hopefully, Rocketskates.

    This plan seems to be a mess.

        • SmellOfVictory

          It might read as doomsday to some people, but it’s really just a realistic consideration for the Flames. They have substantial overlap between some poor/questionable value contracts (Wideman, Engelland, etc) and the need to pay their good players in a specific season, and therefore it just means there are moves that the Flames likely should make, if they can.

          Wideman isn’t bad, per se, but he’s probably only worth 4 million max for his capabilities, Smid isn’t worth a contract at all, and Engelland isn’t either (if someone insists that he has value as an NHLer, then I’d put his maximum at less than a million per year). These contracts are fine, and necessary at this point, but in a couple of seasons they could cause issues when it’s time to give raises to all of the good players on ELCs and Giordano.

          • Burnward

            I agree it’s realistic, but it’s on the low end of the reality scale to me. Well presented cautionary tale though.

            I’m sure that BT and the gang have gone through these permutations many, many times.

            Eventually they’ll have to manage a cap team. But that’s what they get paid for.

          • piscera.infada

            The way I look at Wideman’s contract is that if the Flames are going to harshly regress next year (as many pundits predict), he’ll probably be traded by season’s end. The guy would be a good playoff addition for a team looking for someone who can make a difference on their powerplay (think Wisniewski this year, even though he’s not playing).

            Engelland, on the other hand, is likely to be here for at least another year (even more likely the duration of that contract).

            Raymond could be a player that a team with little veteran forward depth could look to acquire (Buffalo, Florida, Carolina). However, that contract will likely have to mitigated by taking less in a trade than he’s probably worth.

            Finally, and I hate to say it, but I’m looking to move Granlund in a trade to bring something useful back. I like the kid, and I really think he has a pretty good future in the NHL. That said, I prefer what Shore and Arnold bring a lot more. Arnold is a dark horse for this team at centre, and Shore can make a very effective middle-six right wing. He’s proven he can drive play in the past, I bet he makes this team out of camp next year.

          • everton fc

            I personally think Granlund is, and will be, better than Shore. I see Arnold as Stajan’s replacement. Perhaps Granlund can move to wing, but I’ve seen no evidence on the ice either here or in Addy that the organization is thinking this way. Shore, on the other hand, was played at wing. Ditto Bennett, for that matter.

            Arnold and Bennett on the same line would be interesting.

  • SmellOfVictory

    I could see a potential deal with a team like the Flyers or Blue Jackets happening to move up in the draft.

    The Flames could move Wideman or Hiller with a couple of picks.

    I think the Flames want to take advantage of a good season from Wideman and Hiller and give them a little more wiggle room for the next two seasons.

  • MattyFranchise

    Firmly on the Trade Wideman bus. I like the guy but he’s not in the cards for the future.

    @Chris Ramo was okay but he’s not as good as Hiller. Average G. On the optimistic side, he was better than he was the previous season, and maybe that’s due to adjusting to the NHL game and maybe that could continue. On the pessimistic side, the Oil kinda need a miracle worker and that’s not Ramo.

    I think if he sticks in the NHL it’s more likely he goes to BUF though cause right now I think their backup goalie is Glenn Healy.

    /also firmly on the fire Colborne into the sun rocket

  • Cofred24

    Great article. In my opinion if we are going to try to get rid of players for cap space I say we need to get rid of Smid and Engelland. They both aren’t doing too much in the defensive aspect. Also they are taking up about 6.5 million each year together. We could put that in to a high rated free agent or even try to put the money in to snatch up the bold defenseman Seabrook who could really help out the flames…

  • Cofred24

    We should keep Ramo too he is becoming more consistent and is playing much better each year. Hiller however isn’t what he used to be and isn’t as consistent. Sign Ramo ditch Hiller…

    • piscera.infada

      In a perfect world, I’d keep Ramo and trade Hiller. That said–and I’ll reference what Eric Duhatschek said on the Fan last week–I doubt there’s really any trade value for Hiller.

      Think about it for a minute. First, a Ramo deal would have to happen before Hiller is dealt, then with the Ortio’s Waiver situation, you’d have to trade Hiller before the start of the season, or shortly thereafter–you don’t want to keep three goalies for very long (as Treliving stated), and you’re probably better off giving Gilles as much time as he can handle in the AHL.

      Secondly, why would a team trade for Hiller with one-year left on his contract at $4.5 million, when you could a) wait for Ramo to hit free agency, b) sign one of the several free-agent goalies on the market (Niemi, Neuvirth, Dubnyk, Bernier), or c) trade for another potential goalie on the market.

      Finally, if you’re Ramo, why wouldn’t you wait to at least see what you can get as a UFA? I mean, it will make any contract he signs more lucrative–whether with the Flames or any other team. Then, What do you want to sign Ramo to? Likely three years? $3 million cap-hit? More? Less? It’s a tough sell when Ramo knows he’s ultimately going to end up in a timeshare with Ortio. A team might just give a “starter” deal.

      The only way I see something like “dumping Hiller” and signing Ramo occurring, is if the Flames are willing to trade Hiller for very low return. That’s something I’m not inherently steadfast against, but you still have to deal with the timeline issues. I prefer Ramo to Hiller, but for some reason a tandem of Ortio/Ramo worries me more than a tandem of Ortio/Hiller–I think I’d prefer one true veteran in that mix, in case Ortio implodes.

  • MattyFranchise

    I have a feeling that Backlund is more likely to get term in exchange for money. He’s an excellent defensive forward but he doesn’t score and has yet to play a full season. I doubt he sees 4 million per.

    • Parallex


      You could replace “Backlund” with “Dave Bolland” above and be describing the same player and Bolland makes 5.5M now and made 3.375M on his last RFA deal in a lower cap environment. Not saying he will crest 4.0M… but I wouldn’t be surprised if he did.

      Did a bit of number crunching… again using Bolland as a comparable if we adjust for Cap inflation Bolland would have made 4.066M on his last RFA contract.

      • MattyFranchise

        Bolland hit 47 points in his final ELC year. Backlund’s career high is 39 last season. Bolland’s career SH% is 14.1 Backlund’s is 7.9.

        Now I haven’t looked at any usage charts but I think that you used Bolland as a comparable because he had comparable usage. Backlund doesn’t score enough to get 4 million, Bolland did in his contract year.

        I think Backlund gets signed to 4 years/3.5mil per at most. Puts him right in line with Stajan money but he’ll actually be playing 3rd or possibly 2nd line minutes for at least a season or two.

  • Parallex

    Great article Kent, I have been thinking pretty much everything in this article for a while now.

    Wideman will NEVER have better trade value then he has right now, and in fact in a year or two could have negative value if he falls off the face of the earth. I know we would miss his point totals but getting 5.25M off the books AND getting assets back would be fantastic.

    This could allow us to grab up a Franson or Petry (greatly improving second pairing) and still save some money.

    And to reiterate my comments on the other article, BT has to hit it out of the park with the signings. Hopefully he believes all the things he said at the year end presser and avoids the pitfalls of signing guys with career high shooting percentages to inflated long contracts.

  • everton fc

    We made the 2nd round of the playoffs. We are close.

    I’d keep Wideman one more season. Maybe move him in his final year. He’s a big reason we went so far this season past.

    I’d personally roll with Ramo/Ortio. Hiller is a #1 goalie in this league. With a good d-corps in front of him, and an adequate backup to give him some rest, he can take a team deep in the playoffs.

    No one has given thought to the franchise perhaps rolling with Ortio/Gillies. I haven’t really, either. But it may be an option. We could move Ramo and Hiller. But this is a stretch, I know.

    Raymond, Bollig, Byron, Engelland – if you can move these contracts, you have some nice contracts w/Bouma, Jooris, Ferland for now, Shore (who still has to prove he can play in the league, but will replace Byron on the everyday roster, me thinks), so there’s room to add a few players. But we may only be able to move Raymond as a throw-in in a multi-player deal. Bollig, as well, though his stock rose a bit in the playoffs. Perhaps Engelland’s did, as well.

    Granlund and Ferland both missing. If you move Stajan, and slot Granlund into his spot (or Shore, and move Granlund)… There’s lots of wiggle room for next season.

    I wouldn’t mind then keeping Stajan, though. And even re-signing Jones on the cheap when his contract expires, but Poirier should be ready by then.

    • Nick24

      Making the second round in no way indicates that we are close. Tampa Bay made the Conference Final in 2011, taking Boston to game 7. The next year they ended up drafting 10th Overall, then 3rd in 2013. Last year they made the Playoffs but were swept by the Canadiens.

      Nothing wrong with being optimistic, but lets just understand we have a pretty young team, and its rare a rebuild goes along without any bumps in the road. It’s totally possible The Flames fall flat on their faces next year *knock on wood*

      There is no way that the Flames go into next season without a proven NHL goalie. It be a bone-headed move. Expecting Gillies to be an NHL goalie out of College just wouldn’t be fair to him, nor would it be fair to Ortio if you’re expecting him to be a starter.

  • Greg

    Remember last summer when we all said “at least the engelland contract isn’t long enough to cause any problems”.

    Turns out it will by 2016-17. That and the Smid contract somehow have to come off the books by then. Those 2 contracts alone pretty much fix the cap issues for next-next season.

    If you can also clear out either Raymond or stajan (and hopefully some kids make them expendable in the next 365 days), we’ll have the room we need to improve the roster further.

  • this is where decisions start getting tough you just hope that the guys upstairs make the right ones.

    Colborne in my opinion has got to go he’s redudant on this roster and there are in my opinion better players on the farm who can take his place. Arnold, Shore, Poireir, etc.

    Looking at guys like Reinhart, Granlund and Byron as much as you grow to love those guys and to appreicate their potential there comes times where you got admit it’s time to move on. Granlund probably has the most upside and so I could see him as a healthy chip to use in a package or a trade to move up in the draft. Backlund likely to be resigned, and with shore, arnold in the mix there just is no way Granlund will usurp Bennett or Monahan in the top 6 so he’s going to have to play bottom 6 and I don’t think he’s a bottom 6 player but more likely a second line guy. And is it really beneficial for us to keep using him on the wing? I dont think it is so a team who could use centre depth could use a kid like granlund.

    • everton fc

      Colborne keeps a guy like Byron and Arnold off the main team. Ditto Shore. Maybe Wolf. And maybe even Reinhart, who might be able to latch on if he had a longer run (maybe).

      All that said – and I’m not the biggest Colborne fan – I bet he improves next year and cements his spot for a while. Which is a good thing.

  • Greg

    Also, it is very possible the cap won’t be going up the next couple years. Even if the Canadian dollar stays at its current level, having that affect an entire seasons revenue (as opposed to this year where much of the revenue was booked before it dropped) will likely hold it at the same point, if not drop it slightly.

    No question in my mind this is the most interesting storyline for the flames next 1-2 years… How to keep improving the team whilst managing the cap situation. Surprising that’s become the issue so early in the rebuild, but it’s a great problem to have!

  • Reidja

    I think it’s way too early to be concerned about the Cap & pick apart signings like Raymond/Engellend & acquisitions like Bollig. This time last year, hitting the cap floor intelligently was the focus. Now we are talking about buyouts???? What I see is next year Jones(4.0) & Hiller ($4.5) & Hudler(4.0mill) for $12.5mill freeing up. Personally, I don’t see either of those players with the Flames past July1 2016 (maybe Hudler at a home town discount extension if he continues to have decent numbers like this). For what they bring & assuming Ortio progresses next year, the lion share of these $$$ will be added to the cap space avail.
    Then in 2 years, when Gio’s, Gaudreau’s & Monahans new deals come up, we naturally will have Raymond (3.150) & Wideman(5.250) & Smid(3.50) & Engellend(2.916) = to $14,816,000 freeing up. Think about it, who in that group is likely to be a Flame after July 1 2017?

    I think the better question is how do we get better next year & how do we continue to provide opportunity for our very good rebuilding prospect pool at the NHL level? If we buy out a contract, it better be to give a better option the NHL minutes. Lets not misconstrue improvement as making the playoffs & forget development of Gaudreau/Monahan/Bennett/Poirrer/Ferland & others is also improvement regardless if we make playoffs or not. Cap ceiling worries are at least 3 years away. How we win or lose our games will & should have more scrutiny next year.

    The best question next year is, are the Flames really that much better going into next year talent & possession wise or is this team capable of seriously missing the playoffs next year. Players we sign long term for more than $4.0mill per year should be valuable core players we see playing with the Flames for the foreseeable future..

  • beloch

    Re: Wideman

    One key way to look at asset management is to consider how much players are worth to your team in relation to how much they’d be worth on other teams.

    The Flames get excellent offence from Giordano, Brodie, and Russel in addition to Wideman. Giordano, Russel and Brodie are excellent options on powerplays. This makes Wideman less than essential for the Flames. On an team with only stay-at-home defenders, Wideman could add significant punch to their powerplays. This means Wideman is worth more to such teams than he is to the Flames, and is therefore going to be easy to trade for something the Flames need.

  • Agreed with all points in the discussion.

    I think this is also why it was unwise to use one whole year of cheap Bennett for 2 games of playoffs.

    @ Chris – I see Ramo as a capable starter and if you can sign him for a decent price then maybe you do it depending on what else is out there. I would say that Neimi may be a better option though. Not because he is better (I see Ramo as slightly better) but because he would probably have less scrutiny in comparison to Ramo as a proven established starter with a ring.

  • Byron Bader

    ifi was aflames fan I wouldn’t be to worried about the cap moving forward there were a lot of one offs this season and its very unlikely to repeat itself next year. look at Colorado, johnny for 6 mil! lol!!! thanks for a good laugh in the am flamers! and a mcdavid day to you all