156

FlamesNation mailbag: almost a trade

We’ve been asking for a trade for weeks, and all we got was a corpse of one. That, and other things ahead.

Homerism aside, I have to say Cam Talbot. He’s younger, hasn’t picked up nearly as many injuries, and has had less miles on his career than Forever A Flame Mike Smith. Team quality matters too. In both Edmonton and Philly, Talbot was thrown to the dogs behind some unspectacular defences on all around unspectacular teams and was told to fix it. Smith has the Norris winner and a handful of capable defenders in front of him and still let in stinkers.

I wouldn’t be totally confident that a bounce-back is going to happen for either. Smith’s issues are mostly related to his body, but Talbot’s is more related to his play. His most recent season is such a far step below the rest that I don’t feel blaming his defence wipes away everything that happened. Based on his (relative to goalies) youth and his lack of wear and tear, I think Talbot is a contender for a bounce-back year, but I’ll stop myself short of saying he’s going to be dynamite.

The Flames are definitely looking at moving out both, but I have a gut feeling that they might only be able to move out one.

Who’s it going to be? For my money, it’s Frolik. We don’t really know what’s going on in the heads of all the people involved, but the entire Allan Walsh Twitter fiasco alongside the coach moving him around the lineup probably means there’s some animosity lying around. Probably nothing that will destroy the entire team’s chemistry if he stays (Frolik is still a good player with one year remaining), but a clean break is probably what’s best for both sides.

Brodie is a bit more valuable to the team than Frolik is. The team doesn’t have the defensive depth to make up for the loss, with Michael Stone being the only defender with serious NHL experience waiting in press box. What remains on free agency isn’t anything special, and hoping Alexander Yelesin is NHL ready in a couple of months is too far out there to consider.

It’s probably going to take a while. Given that both the Kadri-Brodie trade and the Zucker-Frolik (presumably – it’s strange that we haven’t heard anything) trades fell apart, the Flames are likely trying to find teams that can offer similar players. It would be pretty disappointing for the team to go from swapping out of favour players for legitimate upgrades to swapping them for picks and prospects.

At least I hope that’s what the team is doing. As I said above, both Brodie and Frolik are still really good players even if they aren’t anyone’s favourite. Losing them for a pile of lottery tickets will make the Flames worse off for 2019-20. The team isn’t trading barnacles who are stuck on the roster, they’re trading players who are the easiest to move and will allow the Flames more flexibility for the rest of the off-season. Getting Kadri and Zucker while taking on minimal money would’ve been a coup for the Flames. I feel that’s what they’re waiting for: another team with a handful of problems who need to sacrifice someone good to improve somewhere else.

But at some point, they’re likely going to have to settle for less than Kadri/Zucker. If the choice is a prolonged Matthew Tkachuk extension or a lesser player, they’re going to go with the lesser player.

I think if nothing materializes on those fronts, look for Sam Bennett or Mark Jankowski to be traded. They were already comfortable moving on from Jankowski for an older centre in Kadri, and they were considering Bennett in the deal for Zucker, so it’s not like their youth will save them. The duo can probably fetch a few decent assets for what they’re worth. They save pennies compared to Brodie and Frolik, but should the Flames move on them, they probably believe that up-and-comers Andrew Mangiapane and Dillon Dube can be just as effective at half the cost.

I’m not so sure they’re moving on from Jankowski, just that he’s expendable given the circumstances. Toronto was interested in him because he was a 3C who made considerably less than Kadri, so it worked to get the deal done. Unless it comes down to the situation I described above, they probably aren’t moving on from him for the sake of doing so. He’s a part of a bigger deal, not the deal himself.

Here’s some good options regardless who follow in the same vein as Kadri:

  • Alex Wennberg, Columbus: a strong defensive centreman who had a disappointing season with 25 points in 75 games (his shooting percentage was 3%, and 0% at 5v5, down from normal 10% numbers), but had put up 35 in 66, 59 in 80, and 40 in 69 the three seasons before.  Makes $4.9M AAV for the next three season, and Columbus will be trying to revamp themselves in the wakes of Artemi Panarin, Sergei Bobrovsky, Matt Duchene, and Ryan Dzingel.
  • Vincent Trocheck, Florida: another centre making a reasonable amount of money ($4.75M till 2022) who had a rough year despite all underlying numbers pointing to him being better than that. This is more of a long shot deal, but one I would pursue if I were the Flames.

There are spots for all of them, but I feel the Flames still move a goalie out.

I see it as David Rittich and Talbot in the NHL, Artyom Zagidulin and Tyler Parsons in the AHL, and Nick Schneider and a random ECHL goalie in that league, with Jon Gillies being traded to make it all work.

I think the Flames have lost their patience with Gillies. Given his college numbers, he probably should’ve been in the NHL by now, or at least not struggling in the AHL. They didn’t even entertain the idea of him being the NHL backup, having essentially inked Talbot well ahead of when free agency actually opened.

It would be wrong to put Parsons, a better goalie than Gillies, back in the ECHL because his ELC allows him to be there. It would also be wrong to do that to Zagidulin, who only has one year to prove himself as a viable North American goalie. It goes against the logic of player development to try and jumpstart a player who has proven that he won’t in spite of other players with the same potential who still have more to prove.

MAILBAG PRESENTED BY DAYTONA HOMES

Dreaming of a weekend vacay? It’s your chance to Wine Down in the Okanagan! Visit the Showhome Village in Chappelle Gardens in the month of June for your chance to win a relaxing weekend getaway for four! Directions to showhomes here.



  • Flameon13

    I personally wouldn’t be disappointed if they were to move Brodie and Frolik for picks and prospects as I see Ras and Dube being able to easily replace both in our lineup and if there is still a hole to patch we move those picks and/or prospects gained from those trades at the trade deadline for a piece we need and if come TDL we don’t have any holes to patch then we get to pick a couple extra times in the draft and refill our cupboard. There is no losing in that situation.

    • oilcanboyd

      Ras is already in the lineup. Trading Brodie would open up a spot for Kylington… “Dube can easily replace Frolik…” I don’t think so, but he should be given the opportunity since we are weak on the RW.

  • Off the wall

    I agree. It’s difficult to find trade partners, when you’re dealing from a position of needing to move a player out, because of cap compliance.

    Treliving is most likely looking for other players on teams who have the same problem. I’m glad we didn’t get the deal with the Leafs.

    Pittsburgh, Vegas, Tampa, Florida and the Jets might be teams Treliving is still calling?

    I hope we see a trade soon, though we could be in for a bit of a wait, until we re-sign our RFA’s.

  • everton fc

    I am not the biggest fan of Jankowski, but I also wouldn’t trade him. We need his low cap hit. Moving Bennett would be another mistake.

    Move Brodie/Frolik/Czarnik. We may not get full-value, but we at least get some breathing room.

    • TheBigChef

      I would prefer to move out Brodie and Czarnik than Frolik, but if Frolik isn’t happy here and given the Allan Walsh nonsense, he may have to be the one shipped out for nothing.

      Getting less than market value for Brodie might be more palatable because Andersson showed he is capable of playing top-pairing minutes if paired with Gio, and Valimaki and/or Kyllington need to be given minutes next year. Moving Brodie solves two problems–cap room, and minutes for important young players.

      Moving Frolik hurts more, IMO. He is still an effective player–his CF% is still a net positive. He just doesn’t produce enough to be a top-6 player anymore and wasn’t happy in the bottom 6. I’m not sure that there are any cheaper internal options that can replace what we’d lose with Frolik–not sure Mangiapane is there yet.

      Haven’t checked out CapFriendly yet, but wonder if we start looking at a Stone Buyout as the next best option?

      • cornwallroyals

        Better option for Stone is to try to trade him and retain 1.5M or so which would make him more attractive to acquiring team @ 2M for 1 year. The added benefit this way is that there is no cap hit for next year if not buying him out.

        • TheBigChef

          Part of me thinks they would have done this already if someone was willing to take him. Maybe have to throw in an asset? Or perhaps they are waiting to see what happens with Brodie first.

          Tough to convince another team there is a whole lot of value left in a slow-footed D-man coming off a season with only 14 games played and some pretty serious health concerns.

      • super6646

        Andersson played 6 games at 21+ minutes a night… 6 games. The one game he played on the top pairing in the playoffs saw the flames give up over 50 shots (game 3). Maybe its not a great idea to trade our #2 dman for scraps just for the sake of it?

    • oilcanboyd

      No, we won’t. Tre likes him and has said before that he wants him on the team. Best forward in this year’s playoffs. Benny has developed his role on the team that will not be as a high scoring forward like he was in Junior. No shame in that; he will be in the NHL for many more years….

    • TheBigChef

      I like the option of loaning a guy to another team and not just giving up on a asset because there aren’t enough nets. The problem with that is you now have no control over the minutes that guy gets. He might end up just riding the pine behind another team’s property. At a certain point, getting starts and facing shots in the ECHL might be more valuable than being a sparsely used back up on another AHL team. Flames don’t have much resources invested in Kansas in terms of goalie development though, so there’s also risk in sending a guy down.

        • TheBigChef

          Yes–sorry. Wasn’t intended to specify Gillies–just generally. You could throw Parsons or Zagidulin down there rather than loaning someone out so that they can get starts and you have control over an asset. I think Gillies is more ready than Parsons to step up and play the back-up role in the NHL if Rittich or Talbot get hurt (he’s done it before), but Parsons is a more important prospect, so the idea of sending him back down to Kansas isn’t ideal. Given Parsons’ higher upside and prospect pedigree, my preference would be to run with Parsons as AHL starter, with whichever of Gillies/Zagidulin looks better in camp taking the second spot. If Gillies is the odd man out, try and find a team with awful goalies to loan him out to and hope he gets played. If Zag is the odd man out, you have more options of what to do with him.

  • TheBigChef

    A lot of people on this site seem pretty high on Zagidulin for a guy who no one has ever seen play. Saying that Gillies “should be in the NHL based on his college numbers” is a ridiculous statement. He was a mid-third round pick. The chances of any pick that late hitting and becoming a regular NHLer are slim, regardless of position. He’s played more NHL games than 14 of the other goalies selected in the draft, including 2 picked before him. The hip injuries set his development timeline back, but it’s not fair to label the guy a disappointment because of his numbers in college hockey. He’s likely never going to be an NHL starter, but he’s the only guy from that draft still left in the organization after Jankowski. Give the kid a break.

    I think Zagidulin was brought in as insurance/depth because there was no certainty there was going to be anyone available in free agency. If Talbot wasn’t an option, I would bet Gillies would have been option B. If Gillies shows up to camp and outplays the Russian, it would be stupid to get rid of him just because Zag “only gets one year to prove himself.” If Zagidulin is better, then keep him. There shouldn’t be any other consideration other than who the best goalie is. Until we see Zagidulin play, we can’t make that determination.

    • InSinR8

      Off the top of my head goalies that had good to great NHL careers drafted in the 3rd round or later.
      Pekka Rinne 258th
      Dominik Hasek 207th
      Evgeni Nabokov 219th
      Tim Thomas 217th
      Henrik Lundqvist 213th
      Nikolai Khabibulin 204th
      Ryan Miller 138th
      Marty Turco 124th
      Brian Elliott 291st
      Jaroslav Halak 271st
      Tomas Vokoun 226th
      Mikka Kiprusoff 116th

      • oilcanboyd

        KHL career 0.931 Sv%. Low risk high reward for one year. As long as the Flames don’t jump the gun like the Oilers with Koskinen and sign him for 4.5 mill based on a smalll sample size…

        • TheBigChef

          I would say low(ish)* risk and uncertain reward. KHL SV% doesn’t mean much. You know who else had good SV% in the KHL last year?

          Henrik Karlsson (.928), Joni Ortio (.922), and Danny Taylor (.914). Three guys who were all pretty terrible in their time with the Flames.

          *There is risk in signing him in that there is a chance you are pushing out Gillies and we don’t know yet if he is actually better

    • Rockmorton65

      Hockey83, Gillies being on a one way doesn’t guarantee he’s on the big club. It just means he gets paid the same, wherever he plays.

      The Flames signed Talbot because they don’t trust Gillies as an NHLer.

  • Garry T

    I would not give either of Frolik or Brodie away for peanuts. In the interim you have four kids wondering what is going for their deals while Tkachuk holds up the process. He’s a great player but not worth more than Frolik at $4.5 mil per. I would say here is the deal for 3 years on a bri$ge deal, $13.5 mil is a lot of dough. A bridge does not force the Flames into moving too quickly on Frolik, Brodie or anyone else for that matter. To me the team comes before one guy. If he says no, let him sit for a year. I am tired of the greed and this and Marner’s deal is what that all boils down to.

    • TheBigChef

      That is ridiculous. You want Matthew Tkachuk to sit for a year!?!

      It has nothing to do with greed. First of all Matthew probably has nothing to do with the negotiations at this point and is just letting his agent handle everything. Secondly, it is asinine to expect a player to take less than market value because you think “the team comes before one guy”. This is a business and he is exercising his rights under the CBA to negotiate to what BOTH sides believe to be a fair value. Organizations will continue to treat players solely as business assets and the players should not treat their contract negotiations as anything other than a business decision. Tkachuk’s obligation first and foremost should be doing what is best for himself and his career, not what management or us as fans would like him to do.

      • TheBigChef

        Also, Tkachuk is not responsible for the Flames cap problems. He had nothing to do with signing James Neal or Troy Brouwer or Michael Stone. He shouldn’t be punished for management’s past mistakes.

    • everton fc

      I wouldn’t. Both have value. Frolik would be great with teams like the Bruins/Devils/Rangers/Penguins… Others. He’s a good player – a good 3rd line/4th line guy. Brodie, too, has obvious value. It’s simply getting the right deal done. I think Jankowski’s another who could be “on the move”.

    • qphoss

      Garry, you keep banging on the drum that Tkachuk is only worth $4.5 million/year. Constant repetition does not make it so. There’s no way on earth you can get away with paying Tkachuk less than Neal (even if Neal hadn’t had a dumpster fire of a season) and given their comparable output, I don’t see how you can get away with paying him less than Lindholm. That leaves a hard floor of around $6 million and I have no doubt Tre is pushing for as close to that floor price as he can – that’s been his most successful quality as GM. But your approach to insult Tkachuk with an offer that’s way below what other comparable teammates are making (and setting aside other league comparable) and then sit him if he doesn’t take it would be an absolute disaster!

  • Flameon13

    What would everyone think of inking jumbo joe for a season and play him between chucky and Benny on our second line (assuming we move brodie fro and buy out stone) for say 2-3mill. One last cup run for him back in Canada.

  • meat1

    I agree with moving Brodie and Frolik for draft picks and letting Dube and our young d-men take the spots.
    On a different note, we keep hearing about Pullijarvi (sp?) in Edmonton needing/wanting out. What about Jankowski straight up for him? Dube slides into the center spot and the big Finn RW takes over for Frolik. Just tossing this out there…

  • BlueMoonNigel

    The Isles should be a natural trade partner for the Flames. Isles struggled to score goals and it cost them against the Canes. Why wouldn’t professional goal scorer Jimmy Neal not look good in an Islanders’ uni? That’s the kind of deal Tre should be gunning for.

  • MajorTom

    Was this Monday Mailbag a copy and paste of the last 3 weeks… The trades for Kadri and Zucker didn’t go through so why keep talking about it.. Its Done…And who cares what Smith does with the Coilers I thought this was Flames Nation I could care less how he does in Edomonton… How about writing about who is out there worth trying to pick up or who is worth trading for.. Monday Mailbag should be renamed Rehash Old News..

    • BlueMoonNigel

      Agreed. Have no idea why the Kadri non-trade continues to make news here. Kadri wasn’t the first player and won’t be the last to reject going to Cal. Hell, how many tradespeople in Cal are from the rock and would go back to God’s Own in a heartbeat if they could get the same pay and benefits there?

  • Mitchell

    I’m starting to wonder if a player like gusev will get an offer sheet. His ask is $4 million, but vegas is right up against the cap with a few notable RFA’s in jimmy schuldt and malcom subban. Compensation at $4 million is a second round pick, so it could be a good bet. However, gusev is an unknown which makes it a higher risk, but there’s potential for it to be high reward as well.

  • Herringchoker1971

    Hey Guys,

    I need to take exception to a couple of points in this article. First off…….this trade with Kadri never almost happened. It was proposed and then rejected by the player with his NTC. There is nothing more involved than that. We keep acting like it was done. Kadri told us to pound sand at the very begining and thats it……it’s over…..who cares. It was never close.

    I also want to take exception to the rumour it was Bennett involved in the Zucker trade. Thats lazy reporting. There was no way Tre was trading Bennett and Frolik for Zucker. Be realistic. Just because some guy with a website suggested it, doesn’t make it real. Think about the logic. You trade two 30 point plus wingers for one 30-40 point older winger (Bennett is arguably our toughest player which we are really lacking). It makes no sense to even suggest that non sense. We don’t even know that it was Janko being offered for Kadri. It could have been Dube for all we know. I believe it was Janko but, I don’t know. Can we please at least try and be realistic with the reporting. If we don’t know then don’t try to sell your guess as fact. I love following this board but, man its like common sense and living room GM’s/reporters don’t mesh.

    I reading things here like Dube should easily be able to replace Frolik as an example. How is that even possible. Dube has proven nothing……nothing. He’s just a shiny new toy right now with upside like half our team. At least Janko and Bennett have proven they are at least 30 point guys with upside. Why would you want that gone unless your getting a 60 point guy with size and speed back. I actually think it would be a mistake to bring up Dube this season. We are way to small as it is. We have been saying it for weeks. So lets trade away our 6’5 player with upside in Janko and our 6’1 player who is mean as hell so we can play a 5’10 forward who is always laying on the ice. We can’t even replace Hathaway right now. We need a new Hathaway. If we trade Frolik, then we need someone who can replace Frolik’s skill set right away. If it were me I would be trading Dube right now for a similar prospect with size. TBH, I would make a trade with Edmonton and try and get Puliarvi.

    • oilcanboyd

      Well said herring…! except getting loser Pulujarvi. If we trade Frolik put Janko on RW with Backs and Tkachuk. Try Dube as 3rd line Centre. No harm in trying, just need to make playoffs not get 110 points.

      • Speed Kills

        I think Tkachuk could fill the RW better than Janks(LHS) As Tkachuk has previous RW Exp… Not only that but you could try Tkachuk on the First line RW and drop Lindholm to play with Janks-Backs-Lind as a shut down line?

    • everton fc

      Not much I can disagree with, Herring. In fact, nothing. I will say, I believe, based nothing other than a small sample size, if he can stay healthy and not get knocked into oblivion, Dube may be the better centre, than Jankowski.

  • cjc

    I don’t think Brodie is going anywhere now, nor does he really need to. People seem to believe that one of Kylington or Valimaki will magically thrive on the right side, or that Stone will somehow become a good defenseman, or that Yelesin will make the NHL without a single game of North America experience, and that somehow these options would all be preferable to having Brodie on the team. Tre tried, but now it’s time to roll with him.

    Pretend that Tre hadn’t signed Neal, and that there wasn’t a cap crunch. I can’t see him considering a Brodie trade in that instance. Remember, he sent Hamilton packing instead of Brodie last offseason; if he felt Brodie was the worse D, he would have been the one traded.

    The actual amount of cap that the team needs to free up is more like 2-3 million, not Brodie’s 4.65 million. Would a couple mid-draft picks be worth a significant downgrade on D for (at least) one season?

    • Baceda

      I think the reason Brodie wasn’t included in the Carolina trade is because they didn’t want him, they wanted the younger, better and signed for longer Hamilton. Brodie wouldn’t have been enough for that deal to happen

      • cjc

        Is that accurate? Of course we’ll never know for sure, but my guess is that Brodie was never offered at all – Hamilton was always the piece Treliving would try to move out because he supposedly lacked heart and attention to detail. If the goal had been to move Brodie, he would have foThe feeling was also that having fired Gulutzan they could reunite Gio and Brodie.

          • Baceda

            Oilcanboyd, what like Brodie is some tough guy? I saw Hamilton knock Ovi on his a** in that series, yes I was shocked to see that too, but I don’t recall many times seeing Brodie knock someone on on their butt. I don’t care what you say, Hamilton has always been a better trade chip than Brodie has ever been.
            And sure the Flames felt comfortable moving Hamilton because they figured Brodie could get his game back on track with Gio, and that worked. But the Carolina trade almost definitely wouldnt have worked if it included Brodie instead of Hamilton, especially after the rather dismal season that Brodie was coming off of at the time.
            Like Hockey83 said, it’s just common sense, even if you happen like Brodie more

          • cjc

            I agree, but I highly doubt that Brodie was even on the block last year. Baceda misread my comment – I wasn’t implying that Brodie and Hamilton were interchangeable, rather, that Treliving sought to trade Hamilton and keep Brodie last year.

          • HOCKEY83

            Yes I remember Gio always racing back to try and make up for Hammy being out of position but the off ice museum story is well documented that one of the guys on the fan had to publicly apologize for making that story up.

        • HOCKEY83

          Doesn’t matter if you think he chickened whenever Ovi came around. Offensively he is better than brodie. The year the flames traded him he was tops in the league in defensive scoring brodie was tied for 104th in the league. then he did it again with carolina second place in the league with 2 less goals than the leader and 3 less minutes a night played. Brodie tied for 30th in the league. Personally I prefer Brodie as he is more of a team player and better defensively than Hamilton is. Hamilton will always be worth more than Brodie due to his offensive skills.

    • Cheeky

      Regardless of cap crunch or not, it’s improvement by elimination. Brodie has shown on too many occasions brain farts and baffling plays, Gio is what makes him look good. Ras is ready to pair up with Gio. Where does that leave Brodie, on the 3rd pair – whereas both Vailmaki and Kylington have greater upside at this point. We can sell Brodie now as a top pairing guy, or at the TDL as 3rd pairing guy – which do you think will gain the greater return? Time to move on from Brodie and let the younger guys have the chance…

      • cjc

        I think you’re jumping the gun a bit on Brodie being a third pairing guy. He’s not going to go from averaging over 21:28/night to 17-18/night. Likewise, Andersson is not going to jump from 16 minutes/night to over 20 right away. It’s more likely that Andersson will start to see some of Brodie’s PP minutes, and the overall distribution will be pretty equal across the season. If Calgary is competitive they will take their chances with Brodie (or Hamonic) bolting next summer. It sucks to lose the asset, but it also sucks to weaken your team during its competitive window, and anything they get back will not help for at least 2-3 years down the road. Particularly when nothing in your system is better than a replacement level right hand D.

        • b

          I’ve mentioned this before, but didn’t someone say Hanifin could play the right side when the Flames traded for him? If so, could run with experience and green on each pairing without Brodie in the mix:

          Gio-Ras
          Vali-Hamonic
          Kylington-Hanifin

          • freethe flames

            I actually remembering asking a question very much like this about Hanifin and some one said he has played both sides. Maybe Vali with Hanifin and Kylington with Hammer.

        • Cheeky

          So Peter’s put Ras with Gio a few times during his 1st season yet not have Ras eventually pair with Gio much more during his 2nd? Brodie may start season as 1st pairing but by the time TDL comes around, he will be 3rd pairing (Han and Ham are 2nd, not breaking them up)…

          • Albertabeef

            As far as goals against per 60 minutes 5vs5 in the regular season go Hamonic was the worst D on the entire team with a 2.9. Gio and Han both had 2.5, Valimaki and Brodie with a 2.3, Andersson with a 2.0 and Kyls with a 1.5. So yes I would have no problem spitting the pair up. So if no moves get made I actually think I like this better.
            Gio-Ras
            Han-Brods
            Val-Ham/Kyl
            I just think it matches up better.

    • freethe flames

      The $2.3m in cap space created through buying out Stone will not be enough unless Tkacuk gives the Flames a deal and BT can get him to buy into the internal cap’ possible yes; probable unlikely. If we can trade Frolik for picks the problem is solved and TJ can still be here but as the TDL approaches it would be prudent for BT to listen to offers on he and Hammer; as it is unlikely he can afford to resign both.

  • Herringchoker1971

    How about some articles on realistic trading partners where each can win. Not a desired trade but, realistic trades.

    How about an article on the players we keep bad mouthing like Bennett and Janko. Or the new shiny toys like Mangiapane and Dube. Maybe for once we could make these article positive and exciting. We have who we have right now. Why not create some excitement for once.
    ****For example what is it going to take for Janko to get better. How has he trended compared to other tweeners in the NHL based on position, age, draft class etc? How has he trended since college? Lets look at his potential upside based on how he has trended taking a positive spin. Maybe we don’t focus on what he hasn’t done based on his draft position. Same sort of Article on Bennett. Lets look at what he brings to the flames. The intangible benefits beyond just the points. Lets stop looking at what we hoped he was and what he brings to the table.

    Maybe a positive article should be written about james Neal as well. We wrote him off after one bad season but, if he improves we will sing his praises like two faced blah blah.

    Maybe we need a article on realistic flames expectations for next season.
    Maybe an article on where we need to improve.
    Maybe an article on the new NHL. Based on size vs speed.
    Maybe an article on the two seasons of the NHL and how the flames need to improve.
    Maybe an article on How has the Big Bad Blues changed the NHL landscape. The NHL is a copy cat league. Is size still important.
    Maybe an article comparing the flames to the last couple of cup champions right back to Chicago. What made them successful compared to us. How do we compare. what are we missing.
    Maybe an article on the last season of Gully vs Peters. Was it the coach, was it the players…..what changed really.
    Maybe an article on How small are the flames really compared to the rest of the league

    Just a few thoughts.

    • Herringchoker1971

      How about no more articles on who we almost got. I once almost won the lottery. I bought a ticket but, I never had any numbers right. Sounds stupid hey.

    • freethe flames

      I am waiting for you to write one. Or we could all write one and submit them to Ryan and the board. Your ideas for articles are great. Dog days of summer with no real news happening. Once BT does something and he will; some of us will love it, some of us will hate it but something will happen. My preference is always sooner than later but that’s me.

      Tre will figure out the cap and solve it I have outlined a number of options in the past. Tre will likely add a piece beyond Talbot but what that will be is anyone’s guess. Who will the trade target be? Let’s see.

      • Herringchoker1971

        Haha, I can barely write a clear post. I like you want something to happen. I don’t mind all the games we play with the roster, I just want people to keep it realistic. Other wise its all fantasy. Tre is not going to rush anything. He might just mess with Tkuchuks money so that its low on year one and then back loaded year two through whatever so he doesn’t have to give anyone away. We may not add a new player but, he won’t do anything unless it gets us better (in his mind) that I will promise to you. There are ways around everything.

        • Herringchoker1971

          Here’s another article idea. Is there a way for Tre to structure Chucky’s contract so that its lower on year one and then goes up from there. So that the average still works for both Chucky and Tre. May it involves backloading and bonus’s. I don’t know. Maybe the writers can tell us.

          • Zorn

            There is no advantage in up front money versus backloading. The total money of the contract divided by number of years equals cap hit.
            You could pat $1M in year one $2M In year two and $3M in year three. Total dollars is 6M divided by 3 years equals $2M cap hit in each of the 3 years.

          • Kevin R

            Not sure I agree with you Zorn. The Aho offer sheet was loaded with up front bonuses to the tune of $22 million by the next anniversary date. Ryan Orreilly’s deal was laden with bonuses & that was why Buffalo dumped him for cheaper before the next $5.0 mill bonus kicked in. Advantage of these kids getting their money up front is in case there is a lockout or strike with the CBA coming up. Something Im sure Tkachuk would seriously consider, hopefully enough to get that average cap hit down significantly.

        • freethe flames

          I agree that unrealistic trades bother me but I’m sure that the ones I suggest to many seem unrealistic. But i actually try to do some research before I mention names; rumours from from multiple sources. cap implications. team needs(some sort of reasonable trade) but no one knows for sure. Sometimes I overvalue our asset and sometimes I think I undervalue our asset. But I always try and keep some sort of realism in my trade proposals.

          • HOCKEY83

            The problem is no one will give a what brodie and frolik are worth just because of all the cap crap going on so it’s near impossible to try and guess what you’d get back. The players salaries have gone out of control. Look at Tampa not being able to sign Point. Guess what…it’s going to happen all over again next season when Vasilevski wants 10mil per for 8 years. They sent out a list of the 7 teams that had the space to sign players and most of them did blow their wads on a player or 2 but they will have the cap problems next season. To say that this cap problem is all Tre’s fault is absolutly ridiculous and completely uninformed. It’s happening to all teams…so fire them all I guess. To blame him for not having as many problems with the cap right now as a lot of other teams are having makes more sense just specifically due to the great contracts he’s signed. If The flames young guys that are still on their ELC’s do as well as we all hope they are going to do and Johnny and monny wanting their giant raises what’s going on now is nothing compared to what will be going on in 2 seasons. The cap never goes up as much as the players salaries do.

    • everton fc

      The Blues owe their Cup to Berube. And look at his coaching staff. The ‘Canes owe there playoff run to Brind’Amour. Coaching obviously matters. I think we improved, due to Peters. Is Peters the answer? Don’t know, but I like his assistants, over Gulutzen’s inexperienced nobodies.

      Flames are not that small, compared to the rest of the league. What do we need to take the next step? Guys with more character. Unfortunately, we lost one of those guys, in Hathaway. Who else here, has character? Gio, obviously. I’ll throw Mangiapane in there. Bennett. Hamonic, for certain. Berube had a lot of character guys who did what they were asked to do. They understood their roles. That’s how I see it.

      Articles about who we could have had/trades that didn’t materialize… I agree with you on this, but also understand it’s journalism – albeit off-the-mainstream, to some extent.

      An article on our scouting is long overdue. Our scouting the past few years has been very good. We poached Mangiapane and Phillips – both 50 goals scorers in juniors – in the 6th round. Andersson and Kylington. Dube. All good picks.

      I still say Tkachuk gets a bridge deal.

      • Albertabeef

        For now I just hope he rebounds but personally I’m trying not to think about it. If he’s not at minimum an average player by November then I’ll start freaking out again. If we’re giving him a chance we should probably give him a chance then. No reason to throw him into every conversation all summer long. Same goes with the goalie conundrum and failed trades. This is me trying to be positive lol.

  • Crazy Flames

    If Trocheck is available the Flames would be crazy not to try to get him. I don’t buy that he is available. He had lower point totals this year but he missed nearly 30 games with a nasty ankle injury

  • drogon

    Indeed, Alexander Wennberg & Vincent Trocheck are 2 solid possibilities for BT. Florida is a bit far from home for TJ Brodie. We have a few possibilities out there, I wouldn’t be surprised is something happens within the next 2 weeks.

    • freethe flames

      Since signing his $4,9m deal Wennberg has fallen of a cliff. Last year his point production is closer to Bennetts and Jankos. If it’s Neal for Wennberg I could do that but we know that is just wishful thinking.

  • super6646

    I do not understand this fan base’s desire to trade Brodie just for the sake of it. Hoping to get a 2nd round pick and some crap so as to gut our defensive depth is just a silly proposition. If the flames can recreate a Kadri like trade with someone else (I doubt it at this point), sure, make the trade. Otherwise, idk, maybe keep him around and actually give Andersson some semblance of consistent top 4 minutes before trading out or not re-signing one of our d-men?

    • Baalzamon

      Suppose the Flames keep Brodie. One of the following things will happen:

      1. The Flames lose Brodie for nothing as a free agent
      2. The Flames lose Hamonic for nothing as a free agent
      3. The Flames re-sign both Brodie and Hamonic, and then lose Andersson because they can no longer afford him.

      All of those things are worse than trading Brodie now.

      • Kevin R

        Agree 100%. In fact, it would be nice to extend Hamonic at a hometown discount or maybe its time to trade both of them while we can get good value. Would prefer to keep Hamonic but if we are losing him anyway, Jets would be all over getting him given their current D & cap situation.

      • super6646

        This team is contending for cup right now… that means you lose assets for nothing. That is certainly a better choice than giving up Brodie for scraps and then hoping Andersson is ready, which potentially costs us a year of our window, and hoping Hamonic can stay healthy for a full season (hint hint, he hasn’t played a full 82 game season once in his career, so get ready for Stone/Yeleshin getting top 4 minutes at some point).

        At the end of the day, the Flames are losing one of Brodie or Hamonic. But if you aren’t getting good value back, you keep them as a self-rental. Better than getting a second round pick and potentially missing the playoffs because an injury bug hits the back-end.

      • cberg

        In the first 2 scenarios they get additional seasons from each, and since we cannot predict injuries or trades of other guys… let’s just say you are assuming a lot.

    • freethe flames

      Our the Flames hold onto both of them and trade one at the TDL and reap the rewards. it would be ballsy to do so if we are a playoff team but it has been done in the past.

    • freethe flames

      One of the reasons for TJ names being out there is the cap issue this season. If we had been able to trade TJ for a decent return at the draft we would have been able to pursue a solid middle 6 RW that would have made this team better and had some cap space left over. It could have been seen as a trade of Brodie for Donskoi(based upon what he signed for) and a 2nd, 3rd (low end of what TJ is worth) and some cap space. At this point trading TJ needs to be us getting a middle 6 forward with some upside at less than $4m. Start looking around at guys who have averaged @40+ points a season with 1 or 2 years left on their contract under $4m on a team Brodie will go to and where the player is not considered to be part of that teams core.

      • super6646

        Respectfully, I’m going to disagree until Andersson plays more than half a dozen games with significant minutes. When Peters demoted Brodie and put Andersson on the top pair in game 3, the flames got outshot 56-29, lost 6-2, and was among the top 3 most lopsided playoffs loses in regards to xGF (25%!!!!!) over the past decade.

        I’m ready to believe Andersson can play top 4 minutes this season, but I absolutely think unless the return is worth it, you don’t move out Brodie (or Hamonic) regardless if you have to lose one of them for nothing next year.

  • freethe flames

    So I was just crunching the Flames numbers: if you allocate the remaining cap space for Tkachuk and Mangiapane ($9.473m using Aho’s contract as a comparable personally I think Tkachuk’s number should come in these than this) you still need to find money to sign Bennett and Rittich and I think that number will be between $5m and $6.5m and likely closer to the $6.5m. Can it be done? Buy out Stone; get $2.33m in cap space, bury Czarnik get another $1m, bury Quine another .735m and bury Gilles .750m and you get $4.815m not enough even for the bottom contracts of Rittich and Bennett. Something else would need to be done. BT has some tough choices to make.

    • HOCKEY83

      But this is why all the brodie and frolik trade talk is it not because we already know there’s not enough cap to sign who the flames need to sign…which is why I think the bringing on of another 4 to 6 mil middle 6 guy talk is foolish. The flames will probably take a loss but it looks like picks and prospects for whoever they trade. You never know though perhaps there’s a trade in the works to get rid of better players with higher salaries. Keep in mind they will also be wanting to move into the season with an extra freed up couple of mil in extra cap space.

      • freethe flames

        So the question is there a player on another team that could use TJ and whose cap hit is lower than TJ’s that the Falmes would get better by having. Now we have no idea as to which teams are on TJ’s NTC clause but here are some names of guys who might be available; some I have read in somewhat credible sources: either Bjugsted or Rust out of the Pens, one of either Mantha or Athanauu out of Detroit, Pageaur out of Ottawa, Toffoli out of LA, Namestnikov out of the NYR. I have read that PP would be interested in moving both guys, I have read that not everyone in Detroit is as a high on AA many on the outside are. Are there others? Probably.

        • SouthernFlame

          Im so glad someone else mentioned Detroit and AA besides me. Detroit would be a good team to deal with. They need a D and we need an awesome C or RW. AA can do both. Brodie and Janks for AA. Both teams save on cap and get what they want and need!!

          • HOCKEY83

            And what do you do next season when Athanasiou wants his 7 mil long term. Trade him away for peanuts? Go with the low salaried prospects the flames have and see what you got in them before the flames start wasting money on one year guys that they wont be able to sign the following season. Unless of course the plan is to get rid of Johnny and Monny after this season.

          • freethe flames

            Hockey 83; you deal with that when it comes; he is an RFA with arbitration rights. Depending on his season he might get paid that much. As for getting rid of Johnny and Monny it could happen. With two years left on the johnny sweetheart deal you might make off like a bandit. Am I advocating a Johnny trade no but I do believe if the right hockey deal comes you have to listen.

        • SouthernFlame

          Yeah we free up 3.3 million and make our roster better up front. Isnt that what we all want? They get a top 4 D and a good 3C and free up 1.something mill. Brodie is just a replacement for Kronwall they pretty much cancel each other out. but both teams improve.

        • HOCKEY83

          It’s not about getting better in trading Brodie it’s about getting more cap space. The flames feel comfortable in getting rid of a D man for cap space because the have a good young defensive corp. There is no way to get more cap space to sign the 4 free agents unless players with at least a 4 to posibly 6 mil contracts are traded away for no salary coming back. I think 14 mil would be on the low side to sign those 4 guys…maybe. Sure frolik and brodie gone is more than that. getting rid of gillies and quine gives you a little more buying out Stone would in my opinion be a mistake just specifically because of injuries but winding up with a little extra cap space after whatever moves they are going to make to get them all signed and then going out and spending whatever they got left over will only make it worse next season. It’s inevitable they are going to get rid of someone. Don’t know who yet or don’t know what the flames will sign the 4 RFA’s for so we really don’t know what the flames have to play with until that all pans out

          • freethe flames

            At this point it needs to be about both. The discussion above would do that. An extra $3-3.3m and AA would allow the Flames to add to the forwards. The issue is who would be the 7th D and that is a far issue.

          • freethe flames

            If you trade Frolik it is likely for cap space; trading TJ needs to be a hockey trade; with some cap space coming back. If you keep them both how do you find the $14+m to sign the RFA’s? I did the math earlier; maybe I have tkachuk a little high but I would rather estimate to high and be wrong than to low and be wrong. Same goes with Bennett and Ritich.

            Also I am not stuck that it has to AA; there are others with less offensive upside that might help this club.

          • SouthernFlame

            “Its not about getting better in trading Brodie its about getting more cap space.” ?????? I must be misreading something. Are you more intoxicated than I am??

          • SouthernFlame

            Why couldn’t we do both?? I think thats what makes a good GM?? Maybe not? We could just put Brodie or Frolik on waivers if we wanted at the beginning of the season. Im sure there would be plenty of takers then

  • Garry T

    Big Chef… give Tkachuk $6000000.00 and pay for atop six winger at $5-6 mil. Then pay our goalies $6 mil plus four players who need to be signed and you are so far over the cap that Tre has no where to go.
    Give out $10,000,000.00 to Tkachuk and project the team payroll with everybody coming up including Johnny at $12,000,000.00 minimum and the
    2020/21 cap could be over $110,000,000.00 and buddy, by that time there is a palace revolt at the player’s union. Owners are firing GMS left right and center and you probably have a two year lockout to sort this fnn mess out..
    Look down the road buddy. The money is not there to pay big dollars out mid or long term. We need balance, not is happening now.

    • freethe flames

      How do you stop the insanity? The market dictates what a player is worth. Tkachuk had double FRoliks points this year. meier signed for $6m, Nylander of @7m and imo Tkachuk is more valuable to Flames than either of these guys to their teams. He is not IMO worth as much as Aho whose point totals are higher and he is a center which adds to the cost. But I do agree with you that the economics of hockey cannot keep up and ultimately the non stars will get screwed even more. I wish it weren’t true but the stars will get paid.

      • SouthernFlame

        Truly right! Not sure how the league keeps up with this BS. McDavid is good but he doesn’t deserve 12.5 nor does anyone else. And yes I would say Mackinnon is just as good. Not sure how Cap is determined but its surely not gonna be good for the next couple of years. With all the talent coming up not sure how or who is gonna be signed, haven’t looked into the retiring or the older ufa’s compared to the upcomings yet but the contracts now dont make any sense.

    • mrroonie

      If it was a hometown discount he would have signed for more than a year. He probably didn’t like the long-term offer and figures that with another good year he can ask for a lot more than what they were offering. He will also be arbitration eligible next summer. This is a bridge deal where the player is betting on himself.