November 28 News and Notes

Robert Cleave
November 28 2010 12:43PM

 

PITTSBURGH - NOVEMBER 27: Miikka Kiprusoff  of the Calgary Flames makes a save on Chris Conner  of the Pittsburgh Penguins at Consol Energy Center on November 27, 2010 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The Penguins defeated the Flames 4-1. (Photo by Justin K. Aller/Getty Images)

 

 

I always had the feeling that the dog days of a NHL season were from around Christmas to the trade deadline, but this year, at least for those of us that follow Calgary's fortunes, it seems that they're already in place. Regardless, the round-up returns for another week, full of Grey Cup cheer, or something along those lines. In this installment, the Flames finish a lengthy sojourn with their worst performance of the trip, one of the club's prospects imitates a Flame in entirely the wrong manner, and the first faint rumblings of off-ice change are felt in Western New York.

 

 

Flames:

 

For all the deserved accolades that Sid Crosby received regarding his afternoon's work, the Flames were really undone by the Penguins' lesser lights. Guys like Adams and Asham were pinning Calgary in it's own end shift after shift, and doing so against Moss, Glencross and Bourque. That shouldn't happen under normal circumstances, so I'll be interested to see if that sort of activity plays out on Monday evening against Madden, Nystrom and the like.

 

One area that has concerned me all season is the Flames' inability to generate anything when up a man. Contrary to the conventional wisdom, the Flames probably do enough at EV most nights to get by. We certainly saw them go toe-to-toe with Philly on Friday afternoon, never looking like the lesser party. When the club goes up a man, however, it's another story altogether, and the numbers bear it out. There are two issues at play here, to my eye. One is the fact that the team shoots about as good a percentage 5v5 as 5v4, which even for a team not overburdened with skill isn't normal. That likely changes for the better over time.

 

 

CALGARY, AB - SEPTEMBER 28: Jarome Iginla  and Olli Jokinen  of the Calgary Flames celebrate Iginla's goal against the Phoenix Coyotes in NHL preseason action on September 28, 2010 at the Pengrowth Saddledome in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. (Photo by Mike Ridewood/Getty Images)

 

 

The more worrisome factor that has been a consistent issue since last season is the inability to create shots on goal on the PP. The Flames are in the bottom ten of the league by that metric, and mixed with their poor PPSH%, you end up with a team that isn't making much hay despite a great improvement at drawing penalties. The Flames are 6th in PP opportunities so far, after finishing third last in that category in 09/10. 

 

Individually, what caught my eye in particular was the absolute absence of productivity from Iginla, Stajan and Jokinen. Those PTS/60 numbers would be lousy for a trio of middling defensemen, let alone three forwards expected to carry the load. In the case of Iginla, he's far too passive in his movement most nights, lolling around on the outside of the box hoping for a one-timer. I don't mind him getting that shot, but there has to be some occasional changing of position on his part before he gets there. It's easy to defend a guy that sets up in a spot and stays in place, with Steven Stamkos' ongoing example to the contrary duly noted.

 

Jokinen's utilization is a matter that has confused me since his arrival in Calgary. He had an entire career's worth of working with some effectiveness as the right point man on his team's PP unit. It's actually a good spot for him, since his strength (shooting) is emphasized, and his weakness (puck handling in close quarters) has its exposure limited. If he's manned that spot on Calgary's PP more than a handful of times in his 100+ outings with the team, I'd be shocked. Olli Jokinen has plenty of shortcomings as a NHL player at EV, most of which we've debated ad nauseum  here and elsewhere since March of 2009. The fact that his ability in an area of the game where his team is struggling hasn't been optimized isn't on him, but on his coach, and while I wouldn't suggest that moving Joker to that position would act as an immediate panacea, it would take a lot to make the Flames' PP look any more flaccid.

 

At any rate, the Flames might as well tinker with their personnel groupings, since it's pretty clear that there are going to be no major changes on or off the ice in the immediate future. I'm not overly surprised at the remarks from Murray Edwards, by the way. The hallmark of the current Flames' ownership and organization is to keep plugging along, whether the evidence supports that approach or not.

 

On The Farm:

 

Scary moment in Abbotsford last night as Mitch Wahl got drilled on a cross ice move with at least as much force as Matt Stajan did earlier this week. It's been a very difficult start to Wahl's AHL career even without last night's action, as he's been HS'ed for a number of games. The AHL is no easy place to play, and it's certainly full of men that would do virtually anything to be noticed, so I can only hope that Wahl is OK and learns that cutting across the middle has perils that need to be accounted for.

 

Next Week:

 

 

COLUMBUS,OH - NOVEMBER 06: Eric Nystrom  of the Minnesota Wild fires a puck past Kyle Wilson  of the Columbus Blue Jackets on November 6, 2010 at Nationwide Arena in Columbus, Ohio. (Photo by John Grieshop/Getty Images)

 

 

The Flames have a trio of divisional games this week, with the first being at the Dome tomorrow versus the Wild. Minny got lit up by Colorado last night, giving up 7 on the way to a loss in Denver. That's the second time in four days that the Wild were trounced, as they also received a pantsing from the Flyers on Wednesday. The main news from the game wasn't on Minny's side, however, but that Chris Stewart injured his hand in a fight. That's a peril for a player like Stewart, whose game is a nice combination of skill and willingness to mix it up every now and then. The Avs lost Daniel Winnik to a leg injury as well

 

The Canucks make their first visit to Calgary on Wednesday, and despite their perch on top of the division, I wonder if they're undergoing a bit of buyer's remorse over the move to acquire Keith Ballard. He's been a healthy scratch on a few occasions, and even with some better play over the last few games, Ballard hasn't exactly burned it up this year. As a Flames' fan watching Cory Sarich earn a very nice sum eating popcorn, I won't gloat that much, but he was a flawed choice as a shutdown defender, and I first guessed that one right out of the gate.

 

Elsewhere:

 

 

ANAHEIM, CA - OCTOBER 13: Rick Rypien  of the Vancouver Canucks controls the puck against the Anaheim Ducks at Honda Center on October 13, 2010 in Anaheim, California. (Photo by Jeff Gross/Getty Images)

 

 

 

Off-ice, Vancouver has placed Rick Rypien on indefinite leave. Players, as wealthy, carefree and cosseted as they often appear, are as susceptible to a few dark nights of the soul as anyone else, and Rypien appears to be undergoing that sort of problem at the moment. His absence also got me thinking about the absolute radio silence that's surrounded Paul Ranger's disappearance from the NHL. Ranger left Tampa last fall after playing in eight games, and there hasn't been any hint of a return to the league on his part, or any hints of any sort. He was playing top pairing minutes for the Bolts when this occurred, so it isn't like a 4th line plugger headed home. At any rate, in the case of Rypien, I simply hope he gets whatever help he needs, and if/when he comes back, he's ready.

 

Finally:

 

 

LONDON, ENGLAND - NOVEMBER 26: In this photo illustration a two Euro coin rest on top of a Dollar note, on November 26, 2010 in London, England. Concerns over the Euro zone debts have caused shares to retreat today by 1.3 percent, as speculation continues over other countries seeking financial help. According to reports, a 85 billion euro (112.7 billion USD) rescue package from the EU and International Monetary Fund (IMF) will be announced for Ireland on Sunday. (Photo by Dan Kitwood/Getty Images)

 

 

In Kevin Paul Dupont's Sunday column, he hinted that Tom Golisano might be looking for a way out of the Sabres' ownership. As a matter completely disconnected from any potential relocation discussion, I wonder how many NHL owners might like to take a walk if they could? Franchise values seem to have stagnated along with the U.S. economy over the last couple of years, so the common wisdom that increases of a team's worth would cover any year to year losses might not be seem quite on the mark in places like Dallas, Atlanta, Carolina, St. Louis as well as Buffalo. This isn't a matter that only affects the NHL, of course, as anyone listening to David Stern over the last few months should be able to grasp, and I don't doubt that there have always been men with enough money and ego to buy teams as they've become available, but who would buy the Islanders right now, or the Coyotes without a massive subsidy? A few of the teams I mentioned have been looking for new investors for an extended period with no takers. Maybe it's just me, but this moment for the Big Four leagues does carry the whiff of fin de siècle.

 

To end with something a bit different this week, head over to a Theory of Ice for Ellen's latest, if you haven't had a chance to do so.

 

That's all for this week.  As always, the comments are available for anything you've noticed.

 

 

1a1030a8151ca7a0d81aea58f0fb1dbc
Robert Cleave is a perpetually grumpy Winnipegger.
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#1
November 28 2010, 01:46PM
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In Kevin Paul Dupont's Sunday column, he hinted that Tom Golisano might be looking for a way out of the Sabres' ownership. As a matter completely disconnected from any potential relocation discussion, I wonder how many NHL owners might like to take a walk if they could?

During the lockout the mantra from the owners was we are doing this "for the fans" because costs were too high and this is a gate driven league.

Lets face it, a $162 ticket in Calgary is $45 in Phoenix.

In Tampa Bay, they ran a promotion where for $40 you got four tickets, four hot dogs & four beer. In Calgary, one coke and a slice of pizza is $10.

The price difference is because the Canadian and Northern US teams are subsidizing non-hockey markets like Phoenix, Atlanta et al.

The Flames also want to build a new building so look for ticket prices to continue to rise.

Flames ownership knows that there are enough hockey fans and coporations willing to shell out money to watch this team score one goal a game that things won't change.

We've become the Toronto Maple Leafs West.

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#2 hal a pena
November 28 2010, 01:54PM
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amen to the toronto maple leafs of the west , the only difference is toronto is exactly trying to turn things around. murray edwards stated this week that there will be no shake up, its stay the course.the message in that is simple, there is no intent on being a cup champion. the corporate world is buying the tickets as comps. so winning at the box office and not on the scoreboard is the direction of the flames.the harold ballard model. brutal front office personnel and ahl quality players.

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#3 R O
November 28 2010, 02:02PM
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http://twitter.com/puckarinen/status/8965927441801216

Good ole Bubba.

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#4 R O
November 28 2010, 02:07PM
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Flames ownership knows that there are enough hockey fans and coporations willing to shell out money to watch this team score one goal a game that things won't change.

I don't think they know that at all.

1996-2003 was a dark time for hockey in Calgary and the reason was that the Flames traded away a bunch of real players and the team, predictably, lost a lot of games for a really long time.

If Iginla hadn't become Iginla, which was a distinct possibility given what calibre of player he was considered coming out of his draft class and the history of such players developing into stars, then this team would still be in the hole.

Think about that: if Iginla had become what most #11's do (nothing), then the Hamilton Flames would probably have not even had the moderate success of making the playoffs five times.

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#5 hal a pena
November 28 2010, 02:17PM
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@R O

so not only is iggie the flames captain but he also saved the city of calgary their nhl franchise. perhaps may long should be celebrated in his honour instead of the queen.

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#6 SmellOfVictory
November 28 2010, 03:04PM
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I don't think many people would argue with the prospect of celebrating Iggy over the Queen, TBH.

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#7 hal a pena
November 28 2010, 03:11PM
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i agree totally,the queen is overrated, however to make a statement that iggie saved the franchise is a little steep. look at the coaches during those years in question.sutter and preston connection.and to say an 11 pick is going to be a bust is perplexing.i guess zetterberg shouldnt have even went to the wings camp along time ago.

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#8 R O
November 28 2010, 03:11PM
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There is still the outside chance that Canada will have a hot Queen inside the next 15 years.

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#9 R O
November 28 2010, 03:12PM
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to say an 11 pick is going to be a bust is perplexing

History IS perplexing.

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#10 Kent Wilson
November 28 2010, 05:38PM
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Think about that: if Iginla had become what most #11's do (nothing)

At 11, you're still batting at a fairly high average when it comes to actually getting an NHL hockey player. Not a "franchise best" forward to be sure, but a lot of 11's go on to actually play in the league.

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#11 BCFLAME
November 28 2010, 06:28PM
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Kent Wilson wrote:

Think about that: if Iginla had become what most #11's do (nothing)

At 11, you're still batting at a fairly high average when it comes to actually getting an NHL hockey player. Not a "franchise best" forward to be sure, but a lot of 11's go on to actually play in the league.

Exactly. But the flames do not need another Fata or Nystrom. We need an impact player!! Which is why I say: bring on the losses!!!!!! The more the merrier!!!! We need a top 5 pick in the 2011 draft. More to the point, we need one of Couturier, Landeskog, Nugent-Hopkins, or even Larrson if we end up trading Regeher.

Here's the plan: Consummate the rumored Kings trade; that is trade Iggy for for Schenn, a first, and one of either Simmonds, Hickey, or Forbort (I want the latter, but not sure if Kings bite). That way we get at least a projected top 6 forward (perhaps even a star in the making), a middling first round pick in a deep draft, and another prospect or third liner with scoring upside.

Next trade Regher for a first rounder. I assume he will garner at least that at the deadline or off-season.

Then trade the final core piece of the status quo: Kipper. He will get us a top 6 forward and another first rounder.

Finally, and above all, tank the final half of the season to get a top 5 pick (hopefully in top three.)

Now, if we get first pick, get Couturier. If not, get Landeskog, and then try to trade other two first rounders for another top 5 pick by adding a roster player if necessary to the equation. Grab either Larsson, Nugent-Hopkings, or Joel Armia.

Imagine the ensuing line-up for the future. Top 2 centers would be Schenn and Backlund (finally two guys that can pass and make plays happen). Top two right wingers would be Landeskog and Borque. Both are physical and can score big goals. Left wing would be manned by the scoring sensation Couturier. If he isn't available, then let Borque go back to natural left side, and bring in the highly touted Armia as second line right winger behind Landeskog. Both these guys can score prodigiously, are fast, and have great size. Our top 6 forwards would form a dangerous core capable of both filling the net and bruising the opposition.

Finally bring up Erixon and Brodie next year, and go searching for a physical shut-down defender to round out the defensive corps behind Bouwmeester and Gio.

Biggest problem would be in net. Not exactly sure what we would do here, but I thing one of Iriving or Karlsson will eventually round out into a primary NHL goalie.

If all goes according to plan, our boys should be contenders by 2013, and will continue to do so for a very long time.

We need to tank and rebuild now!!!!! Too many good players to pass on in the 2011 draft, and we have legitimate chance of getting two top 5 picks this year if we trade our current core members now!!!!

One caveat: Even the best laid schemes of mice and men often go awry. There is the possibility one or two of the kids will not turn into the stars they are expected to become.

But, damn, when your future consists of Schenn, Landeskog, Backlund and one of Coutorier, Armia, Nugent-Hopkins, or Larsson, I say roll the damn dice!!!!!

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#12 Rain Dogs
November 28 2010, 07:48PM
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@BCFLAME

Yeah, that's all going to just work out perfectly isn't it.

Then trade the final core piece of the status quo: Kipper. He will get us a top 6 forward and another first rounder."

HA! This is what happens when you live hockey in your head, and don't even suggest a dose of reality. And this is just ONE part of your equally flawed puzzle.

I wouldn't give more than a second-third liner and a second rounder for Kiprusoff, and I probably hold him in higher regard than 95% of the people on this blog.

Why? Three names:

1. Vokoun, 2. Giguere, 3. Bryzgalov.

Why on this green Earth would anyone trade for Kiprusoff when you have those three guys in the final year of their contracts?

They are either 1. Better, 2. Arguably as good (although doubtful), 3. Not as good but with a more 'current' reputation.

You could give away less and acquire less risk/commitment as well and a similarly skilled goalie. And you try naming me four real contenders who need a substantial upgrade in goal, while having the cap space to absorb Kiprusoff. I can name 1.

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#13 Scotty
November 28 2010, 11:13PM
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I see the BC bud is treating you well...

I dont even think in NHL 11 it can go as well as you described.

Question to all, When was the last time a team had 2 picks in the top 5?

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#14 BCFLAME
November 28 2010, 11:19PM
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@Rain Dogs

Okay, Lawrence. So you are seriously suggesting Kipper is worth only a second rounder and a third stringer? LOL!!!!

And you included Gigure as a comparable in your assessment of Kipper's value in the trade market?!!! I won't even reply to that one.

Secondly, do you seriously think Phoenix will trade their golden egg considering he is the only difference between a win and a loss almost every night. And for your information, the notion they would trade him while they sit in a playoff position is comical.

That leaves Vokoun, who has a whopping 11 games of playoff experience in his career. More importantly, he didn't win either series.

At least Kipper came within one win of taking it all.

I maybe concocting a series of grand ideas that may be inherently flawed when applied to the real world (in my defence, it is funner than the alternative of watching the flames self-destruct; plus, did you read my caveat?)but your "realistic" evaluation of Kipper's worth had me laughing my butt off! I mean, Giguere!!!!????

Plus, I was not suggesting we may not need to take salary back in any trade. Hopefully whoever replaces Dutter will be more adroit in picking up a valuable piece of the puzzle in addition to a high draft pick.

Of course, a Kipper trade would mean we would have no de facto No.1 for the forseeable future. That is a legitimate concern, as the province of Quebec is no longer producing elite goalies by the boat load.

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#15 BCFLAME
November 28 2010, 11:25PM
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And yes, Scotty. BC Bud is awesome, lol, and maybe if Dutter administered some to himself, he wouldn't panic and trade away valuable commodities for a bag of pucks.

As for the last time one team had two top 5 picks in a single year: it was Vancouver. Our beloved Sedin sisters were the result.

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#16 otto
November 28 2010, 11:49PM
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Scotty wrote:

I see the BC bud is treating you well...

I dont even think in NHL 11 it can go as well as you described.

Question to all, When was the last time a team had 2 picks in the top 5?

I believe it was when Van drafted Mary-Kate and Ashley Sedin in 99.(2nd&3rd)

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#17 R O
November 28 2010, 11:57PM
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Lawrence:

I hear ya. LA Kings right? I doubt they'd even trade a second-tier guy like Ponikarovsky and a 2nd for Kiprusoff, they seem to think committed money after the expired CBA is a death knell.

I myself don't know enough about how the CBA negotiations will look like to have an opinion.

Honestly I was hoping for a Kiprusoff trade to but I was hoping they would do it in the offseason, and prey on franchises that have recently lost like Dallas, Columbus, TBay etc.

That desire for a trade was based on what I perceived to be a mismatch between perceived and real impact (for Kipper, perceived impact high and real impact low) but more and more I think I got that backwards.

Plus the goalie market's a steaming hole in the ground.

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#18 R O
November 28 2010, 11:59PM
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Vokoun and Giguere are really goddamned good goalies.

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#19 R O
November 29 2010, 12:12AM
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At 11, you're still batting at a fairly high average when it comes to actually getting an NHL hockey player. Not a "franchise best" forward to be sure, but a lot of 11's go on to actually play in the league.

Yes. Though that could have been acquired without withering expense as free agents (Holik and his 45 cool ones excepted).

Dunno if a single "Glencross/Bork" type have saved the Flames then. They needed to go the Nashville route of ice 12 + 6 good players to have a chance without a star difference-maker. And they surely did not do that (shudder little fake artist shudder).

Also, while we're on the topic of those dark years I should probably add that the only really well thought out trade of that era was Stillman for Conroy. Guaranteed win. He also contributed to the Flames turnaround.

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#20 BCFLAME
November 29 2010, 12:23AM
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R O wrote:

At 11, you're still batting at a fairly high average when it comes to actually getting an NHL hockey player. Not a "franchise best" forward to be sure, but a lot of 11's go on to actually play in the league.

Yes. Though that could have been acquired without withering expense as free agents (Holik and his 45 cool ones excepted).

Dunno if a single "Glencross/Bork" type have saved the Flames then. They needed to go the Nashville route of ice 12 + 6 good players to have a chance without a star difference-maker. And they surely did not do that (shudder little fake artist shudder).

Also, while we're on the topic of those dark years I should probably add that the only really well thought out trade of that era was Stillman for Conroy. Guaranteed win. He also contributed to the Flames turnaround.

Ummm...I personally would probably include the Nueiwendyk for Iginla trade right up there, too.

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#21 R O
November 29 2010, 12:43AM
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@BCFLAME

I could've missed the memo on this one but I thought the really good general managers can make moves that look good in foresight and not just in hindslight.

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#22 BCFLAME
November 29 2010, 12:53AM
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R O wrote:

I could've missed the memo on this one but I thought the really good general managers can make moves that look good in foresight and not just in hindslight.

Ok, so Iggy just kinda fell into the corporate lap of the Flames organization, while the Conroy trade was the outcome of a long, rational process of evaluation that can be characterized as having had good foresight? I don't know what insider information you have from that "era", but I suspect Button would take issue with your assertion, good sir.

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#23 R O
November 29 2010, 01:03AM
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I could talk about coin flips or poker hands or lottery tickets but why bother?

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#24 hal a pena
November 29 2010, 05:26AM
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@BCFLAME

the sounds like a viable plan but kipper to the eastern conference, say philly. where goaltending has been an achilles heal since lindberg. pelle not charles. regherer somewhere anywhere very soon. the dale tallon plan needs to be in place, stock up on draft choices.it worked in chi town, one cup and still a repectable lineup.

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#25 PrairieStew
November 29 2010, 08:10AM
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@BC Flame

I hear your frustration, but it is too early to pull the plug on this season. There are a bunch of Western conference games coming up this month.

If things go poorly, you may get your wish for a top 5 pick - and you may not have to trade anyone away to do it.

Fata was picked at #6 I think - Tzachuck about the same. Top 5 no guarantee

RO : 96- 2003 were dark times. Remember what was happening though. New rich owners in the States willing to spend; Canadian dollar in the toilet, Oil btw $10 and $25 a barrel and Nat gas as low as $1.50 a GJ. Those factors, extremely important to our ownership group - they were trading guys for economic reasons and no other.They traded just about everyone while in their prime. A "tear down" today would involve guys over 30 and be quite different. Have to agree with Lawrence on Kipper's market value. With pending FA goalies available for less he might not garner much, unless done at the deadline with a very good and desperate team who have lost their starter to injury. ( poking needles in to Neuvirth and Bobrovsky voodoo dolls).

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#26 Lawrence
November 29 2010, 10:10AM
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1. Vokoun 0.932 9260 2. Luongo 0.929 9725 3. Thomas 0.928 6447 4. Kipper 0.926 8921 5. Lundqvist 0.926 7499 6. Brodeur 0.925 9168 7. Bryzgalov 0.925 6056 8. Lehtonen 0.925 5352 9. Giguere 0.924 6672

Kiprusoff has years left on his contract, a NMC, and (arguably) greater chance of diminishing returns, being 34 years old.

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#27 LawrenceS
November 29 2010, 10:19AM
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WHY???? when I type out comments does Flames nation not post them? Garbage-f*&king-system.

@ BC FLAME. read above numbers (evsv% since 03/04) and use your head. That's shorter.

@RO. Washington. LA will spend on a top six forward.

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#28 T&A4Flames
November 29 2010, 11:41AM
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Kipper for a 2nd etc. is laughable for sure. Seriously, you don't think a team like Wash. or Phi. would love to have him. Sure you could try to play the waiting game and see if you can PU a Vokoun etc. but then you're contending with how many other teams. Holmgren, in some ways, is like Sutter- he has no issue sacrificing the future for a winner now. I don't think he'd go as far as trading BOB but if Was got a whiff of them being interested, they may try to one up and they have 2 good young goalies to dangle. IMO Kipper has as much if not more trade value as Igi to a contending team. A 1st, good prospect and a top 6 fwd/top 3 D/ top G prospect at least.

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#29 nickja
November 29 2010, 12:33PM
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@BCFLAME

Ha ha You got to be kidding me, Kipper came within one win of winning it all, Gigure actually won it all. Big difference. Kipper has won squat since the once in a life time run that the Flames went on. I think it is time Calgary stopped talking about the "RUN" won't hapen again, not even close to a contender and no prospects in the cupboard. Also have possibly the worst contract in the league with Boumeester, he is a brutally soft defenseman

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#30 PrairieStew
November 29 2010, 12:44PM
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T&A4Flames wrote:

Kipper for a 2nd etc. is laughable for sure. Seriously, you don't think a team like Wash. or Phi. would love to have him. Sure you could try to play the waiting game and see if you can PU a Vokoun etc. but then you're contending with how many other teams. Holmgren, in some ways, is like Sutter- he has no issue sacrificing the future for a winner now. I don't think he'd go as far as trading BOB but if Was got a whiff of them being interested, they may try to one up and they have 2 good young goalies to dangle. IMO Kipper has as much if not more trade value as Igi to a contending team. A 1st, good prospect and a top 6 fwd/top 3 D/ top G prospect at least.

To sum up - the factors negatively affecting Kiprusoff's market value 1. $5.83 m cap hit for 3 more years after this season . 2. He is 34 already 3. Last year's market - Turco - one year $1.3 million; Stanley Cup winner Niemi on year $2 M. 4. Upcoming FA goalies with similar resumes that can be had without trading assets.

The consolation with Kipper is that while the cap hit is high - he will be making less than that $5.83 for the last 2 years ($5 and $1.5).

Good point about playing one off the other though - baseball teams out of contention usually call both the Red Sox and the Yankees when dealing their pending FA's.

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#31 PrairieStew
November 29 2010, 01:19PM
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R O wrote:

I could talk about coin flips or poker hands or lottery tickets but why bother?

Ok - I read hawerchuk's luck article. I understand that luck, fortune or misfortune can affect outcomes. What troubles me about the concept is that luck can be defined as almost a singular event in the context of the outcome of a hockey game. If I flip a coin 10 times and get a 7-3 result ( just did, congrats to tails), that is not unusual but one would expect it to even out with more coin flips ( update : heads charged back in the second period 7-3 to tie it). What a hockey game is to me is a tied together series of interactions that could be affected by luck. Every pass, shot, bodycheck, save could all be affected by luck. A puck bounce, a blocked shot, a missed call, a rut in the ice etc. Each game is to me hundreds of coin flips, not 2 or 3 or even 30. ( Update : Tails wins the 3rd period 6-4). Surely we can't expect that tails consistently wins the contest of hundreds of coin flips on a nightly basis. Even if Tails wins 190-170 one night, will it mean that those coin flips are enough to make an actual difference ? Tails could win all the lower conseqence interactions like neutral zone play, but heads could get that "lucky deflection" in front of the net. The tendency is to look at the bad things when it comes to luck, and chalk all good fortune up to skill or entitlement.

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#32 LawrenceS
November 29 2010, 01:50PM
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@T&A4Flames

You're missing the point. I'm not saying that is what Kiprusoff is WORTH that. I'm saying there is a reason why when you try and sell you car for $5000, people will come along and offer $3500. Maybe you sell, maybe you don't.

The fact is, if everyone else on the block is selling pretty much the same car for $4000, what the hell makes you think you'll sell your car, just because YOU think your's is substantially better?

Vokoun has proven to be a slightly better goalie on a team that is perceived worse. FLA likely won't resign him, so they would WANT to deal him.

Why wouldn't other teams go after him, when Kiprusoff can say no to any deal.

You guys are losing perspective.

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#33 T&A4Flames
November 29 2010, 02:16PM
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LawrenceS wrote:

You're missing the point. I'm not saying that is what Kiprusoff is WORTH that. I'm saying there is a reason why when you try and sell you car for $5000, people will come along and offer $3500. Maybe you sell, maybe you don't.

The fact is, if everyone else on the block is selling pretty much the same car for $4000, what the hell makes you think you'll sell your car, just because YOU think your's is substantially better?

Vokoun has proven to be a slightly better goalie on a team that is perceived worse. FLA likely won't resign him, so they would WANT to deal him.

Why wouldn't other teams go after him, when Kiprusoff can say no to any deal.

You guys are losing perspective.

Ok Lawrence, fair enough. It's a moot point anyway as I don't believe the Flames would move Kip. However, like BC said, I don't think Bryz would get moved which really only leaves Vokoun. But again I'll say, both Was and Phi are looking to win now. If one were to PU Vokoun, how does that change the market? When your already potentialy dealing with Thomas/ Rask, Miller and probably Fleury could be included, doesn't that create a "must keep up" attitude amongst any other contenders? Was. is a young team and has lots of time to win it all but 2 years of frustration can change things.

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#34 BCFLAME
November 29 2010, 03:04PM
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Quick reply from work: Vokoun also has a NTC, from what I recall from last year's trade rumours.

Kipper may have more years, but he also has not been injured over the last few seasons.

Kip and Vokoun are absolutely worth more than a 2nd rounder and 3rd liner.

Plus, for those of you that think Giggy is still in his 2006-2007 form, you are obviously smoking some of our local grown produce. Enjoy.

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