It was the third game in four nights for Calgary, and there is little doubt from a disappointing start in LA to a thrilling all out victory last night in San Jose, by the time the Flames got to Phoenix, they were dog-tired. It showed in the tempo of tonight’s game too and the Coyotes were more than happy to oblige the Flames, as they played a grinding style of just constantly clogging up the middle of the ice and biding their time.

The Flames got the short end of the stick again tonight, losing the game in a heartbreaker, in that while short-handed, they had a penalty killer go down. Playing a 4 on 2 with no gas in the tank? Well you get the idea.


The game definitely didn’t start with the same pace as last night. For the most part it was a period of hesitation, almost like most of the time the players were just getting a feeling for each others team. That might have very well been the case given that it was the first meeting of the season between the two clubs.

Believe it or not, it was also the most eventful period of the game. The Flames out-chanced the Yotes 6-4, but it was Phoenix that opened the scoring. At 7:43 of the first, Taylor Pyatt scored his 7th of the season to give the home team a 1-0 lead. It wasn’t the best of circumstances for Calgary either. The play actually started with a nice rush into the Phoenix zone by TJ Brodie. As he circled the net for the wrap-around, Brodie saw that the play wasn’t there and instead rounded the corner with the puck. As a result, he fell; out of position, the Coyotes took the puck back up the ice on a 3 on 1. Pyatt lets loose a wrist shot that Irving almost had, and probably should have had, but rather the puck bounces off his pad and finds the back the net.

The second period was nothing short of painful to watch. Phoenix out-chanced Calgary 4-1, but there was no scoring by either side. the most entertaining part of the period was watching Keith Yandle flex his muscles by taking after Lance Bouma and Mikael Backlund. Yes, it’s was as impressive as it sounds to watch.

The third period had a bit of familiarity to it from last night. The Flames get on the board at the 4:01 mark with Olli Jokinen’s 17th of the season. The goal was similar to Olli’s first goal last night in that it was a total fluke. Instead of accidentally deflecting in the shot from the point, Jokinen inadvertently deflects Mark Giordano’s slap shot off his pants and past Mike Smith. Sometimes it good to be lucky and lucky to be good; whatever it is the puck is loving Jokinen. The goal was one of only two scoring chances for Calgary in the whole period, yet they still out-chanced Phoenix 2-1.

As a result, once again the Flames find themselves going to overtime, and to be honest, they were looking better as the game when on; however, the fuel just wasn’t in the tank. In a scramble in the corner, Mikael Backlund takes a tripping penalty to put Phoenix on just their third powerplay of the night. Everything was going fine until Blair Jones blocked a shot in his foot and became instantly immobile. With the Yotes basically on a 4 on 2 in the Flames zone, Shane Doan buried his 16th of the season, to give Phoenix the win.


… the Flames Lost? Because they got out-shot 36-23, they went 0/3 on the PP and they were down two men in overtime. I’m sure the fatigue factor contributed to all of these events, yet then again, it all comes down to how much you want it in a game like this. I didn’t see the same urgency in the Flames’ game as in the previous two. Maybe with getting 3 out of 4 points in the other two games, the Flames were going to be content with 4 out of 6 on the road trip. The unlikely win in San Jose gave them a breath, but they squandered the opportunity to move into a playoff spot tonight.


I’m going with Irving tonight. The first goal he let in wasn’t great but he really buckled down and played a solid game. Stopping 34 of 36 shots in his first game since the Boston blow-out, he showed great composure and was steady all night long. Every time Irving steps in the crease he is making it a harder decision for the Flames as to who should be Kiprusoff’s back-up. Aside from the Beantown game, even when Leland loses, he manages to get the Flames a point, something Karlsson has hardly been able to do this season. Undoubtedly, Irving is showing he is ready for the NHL and is proving he deserves his shot.


Four out of six points on the road isn’t bad, especially when three of them come on a back-to-back where you hardly ever win. However, the game tonight stings in that yeah, you salvaged a point, but you also gave up two to a team you need to catch for a playoff spot. This marks the fourth time the Flames have approached the 8th seed, only to let it slip away. It doesn’t get any easier going home either. Phoenix was the chance to make up ground in the conference, now you have to face Vancouver on Saturday. Is it another must-win game? Hey, aren’t they all now?

  • RexLibris

    At least a step forward was taken. Although it doesn’t get any easier on the weekend, one can only hope at this point that perhaps you’ll catch Luongo on one of his “Luon8o” nights.

    I don’t imagine Backlund has won over any of his critics for taking that late penalty either. Too bad, I liked his fight and his energy.

    • Vintage Flame

      It was more a 1 step forward, 2 steps back in giving up the points. Where the win against San Jose last night was great, they would have been better off losing last night in OT and winning tonight in regulation.

      And yeah, the critics are already all over Backlund on overtime with Steinberg. The late penalty was bad, but like Pat pointed out to one of the callers, it was kind of a bush-league call too.

      • RexLibris

        True, but the advantage I see in the Flames beating the Sharks is that, from everything that I’ve read about last season’s failure, they could never beat the superior teams and that prevented them from moving up. They clearly beat a superior team in the Sharks the other night and they basically lost a coin-toss style game against a team that is more in their peer group.

        I see the Flames right now lacking a player or two that can break a game like that. Glencross used to be able to do that once in awhile, and Stempniak has been known to do it occasionally. With those two out it has fallen, of late, to Jokinen and but for that whiffed attempt by Iginla, there didn’t seem to be too many players who forced themselves into the scoring areas late in that game. They could drive the possession time in the offensive zone, but it didn’t amount to anything when it was all around the boards or near the blue-line. Credit to Phoenix for not giving up the slot that easily.

        If the Flames can beat, or at least get a point from, Vancouver on Saturday then at least they will be heading in the right direction. I will say this though, as an outsider with no love for either team, I wouldn’t bet against the Flames to win.

        I was going to post this yesterday on the Backlund article, but I’ll do it here because I think it is still fairly relevant: we would all agree that it takes several years, perhaps three to six, for most defensive prospects to develop into NHL players. There are a few exceptions, but even Lidstrom took several years to develop.

        A centre is as close to a defenceman as a forward can get and the responsibilities on that position are many. They need to be defensively concious, be aware of the position of all of the other skaters on the ice, drive the offensive play through their wingers, and be the first one back on defensive coverage.

        Add to that the responsibility of winning faceoffs, challenging NHL-level forwards and defenceman and scoring on NHL goaltenders and I think that a little patience for a 22-year-old is called for.

        My guess is that Backlund will peak in his career as a 2nd line centre and that his average will be closer to being a 3rd line centre. That hardly makes him a bust though. It only means that fans and critics need to adjust their expectations of him.

  • Vintage Flame

    So when the Flames left for this road trip they were 11th and 3 or 4 points out. They take 4 of 6 points and are 11th and 2 points out. Hmm what gives. I know what gives, scoring, aside from the San Jose game, this team is having a hard time scoring. I’ve said it once, i’ll say it again. Come end of April the Flames will most likely be sitting between 9th and 11th, 2-4 points out. Look at all those close 1 goal regulation or overtime losses. if they had scoring, maybe just 2 more goals, that could be as much as 4 points. This system of hold the fort and hope to pot one doesnt work. When playoffs come the Flames wont get half a win for losing in OT. Good on em for doing good. Jokinen must have drank something. But lets be honest, do we really feel this team can play with the big dogs if they fall ass backwards into the playoffs? One thing i cant believe teams arent trying is this is a fragile team, a tough rough team will dominate them and most teams arent playing them that way. Thats good for the Flames. They need grit, they need scoring. I dont want to say it but in June the Flames will be looking at a 3rd year out of the Playoffs, still have no coach (either havent told Sutter they arent renewing or none chosen yet) and picking around the 10th spot in the draft. With the history of drafting in this organization, i’d give up.

  • ChinookArchYYC

    I can’t help feeling very torn by the Flames predicament. I want them to win every game, even though it is very unlikely they can make the 8th spot into the playoffs. On the other hand, I feel very strongly that Feaster must make the best of his parting UFA’s, and start improving Calgary’s future opptions. To that end, I really think the Flames should trade Jokenin away for either a younger center, or some picks next year. I’m skeptical that’s his recent production can be sustained over the next few years, particularly because Jokinen is in his contract year, and has worked harder than I’ve seen him ever play. He’s 34 years old, and a short- ish 3 year contract puts him a 37 – too many miles to expect 20 – 30 goals a year.

    I’m glad Olli has picked his carrier back up, but the Flames need to think about beyond this and next season.

  • everton fc


    Leland is w/o a doubt our backup. In fact, if Kipper went down, I think he’d continue playing as he has…


    We still have no scoring. If Olli didn’t go on his recent rip… Where would the goals come from??


    The move to get Cammy for the “playoff push” appears to be a bust. I know we had to move Bourque, and hindsight is 20/20… But is this move is indicative of things to come from this GM and the top brass… We will be on the cusp of 8th place for some time. Cammy looks like he won’t give us anymore points than Glencross. Or worse. I hope I’m wrong….


    To me, Backlund is a decent/career third line centre playing both ways. To expect anything more, in my opinion, will only frustrate. He’ll probably never put up 20 goals… He’s a 10-12 goal max centre, who’ll give maybe 30-35 points a season.


    Still, we are playing well now, without Glencross/Stempniak. This is at least, encouraging, though we have two games on the Stars… Which is not a good thing.

  • xis10ce

    I still think Blair Jones might have had a chance to block that shot that scored from Doan if he wasn’t linmping around from the previous shot he blocked. I’m just hoping at this point that he’s not seriously injured. Jones isn’t exactly at destroyer on the ice, but we can’t afford anymore injuries.

  • the forgotten man

    If you look at Backlund’s stats all the way back to Sweden I can’t see any evidence whatsoever that he is a number one or for that matter number two centre. I think Backlund amounted to a snow job from Dutter that he was the next coming…I originally bought it hook, line and sinker.

    Looking more carefully at his lifetime stats, I have now recalibrated my expectations for him. If the flames can continue to develop him into a solid third line centre then he becomes a valuable asset going forward. Once flames management gets it through their thick skulls that they will need to DRAFT a legit first line centre then appropriate trades or a rebuild can be instituted to accommodate this scenario.

    No surprise that Cammy is a bust so far…he had sucked in Montreal but again the flames have some kind of Welcome Back Kotter fetish, along with a dash of nepotism, when it comes to a lot of their personnel decisions.

  • BobB

    Oh, and about Backlund.

    In my mind, he’s a Flame. He shouldn’t be traded. He has potential. He plays a responsible two-way game.

    But, holy shit he needs a fire lit under his ass.

    My depth chart for centres looks like this:

    1. Jokinen
    2. Moss
    3. Jones
    4. Stajan/Backlund
    5. Horak

    Seriously, Give Stajan a chance as the second line centre. He’s never going to earn his pay on the 4th line, and Backlund is lost.

    I thought maybe that punch would wake him up, but it just made him scared.

  • the forgotten man

    Went to the Heat game last night. Some quick observations:

    – the team is terrible. Without Kolonas and Irving they are beyond brutal. I’ve been predicting the demise of the Flames to occur in about 2 seasons from now. After watching their farm team, it’s a certainty. Brutal.

    – Karlsson was awful. On his knees on every shot. Usually before every shot. Most of the shots were deliberately high on him and 3 of the 4 goals were high.

    – Horak was the only bright spot. You could really see his intelligence, but it took him half the game to really get going. Wonder if he’s having a bit of an adjustment problem with being sent down. Still, strong on the pp, lots of ice time. Conclusion? Should’ve been sent down 20 games earlier.

    – Omark has incredible talent. And he does backcheck. But he also loves to play high in his own zone waiting for the breakaway pass and does not play a 200′ game in the sense that he’s not coming back deep. I can why the Oil don’t keep him up. Needs to play with other talent in a top 6 role or nothing. But, under the right circumstances, he could flourish. Half-assed effort and still was effective. Too good for the AHL.

    – After watching the dearth of talent on the Heat and looking at the average age of Calgary’s top 6, this team should be in a mad rush to start selling off assets and rebuidling. Talk about being in denial.

    That cliff is getting closer. Standing pat at the trade deadline will be suicide for Calgary.

    • RexLibris

      That has been my assessment of the Heat this season as well.

      Looking at their roster and the makeup of the team, any success they have is not one that can be considered to reflect well on the Flames future. I think the lack of depth at the development level for the franchise right now (especially after the Montreal trade) is one that doesn’t hurt right now but will become exceedingly painful a year and two from now.

      The refusal to sell off assets this year will, I believe, be looked upon in hindsight as a glaring error. Perhaps as bad as many of their recent draft results. This could change if the team tail-spins and there is some sort of about-face from ownership and thus also management. But as it stands now the stated goal is to go for broke.

      From everything I have heard and read from MacKenzie and Dreger, the lack of movement in the NHL thus far is due to too many buyers and too few sellers and the sellers are asking for the moon. Calgary has at least three pieces that they could market this month and for whom receive a fair to above-average price. Instead, those moves will not be made and a golden opportunity to accurately and objectively assess the situation will be missed.

      In all likelihood this season or next will see the swan song of this current roster formation. So I don’t blame the Flames or their fans for wanting to go all in and just see what happens.

      The drawback to that is that there will probably be a period of pain for the team and fans as the franchise reorients itself to a new state. The condition and role of the Heat plays a significant part in that as well. Sutter spent a long time not only neglecting but actually undermining the status and standing of his AHL affiliate. Starving it of prospects and consistently bringing in veterans from other squads rather than promoting from within which in turn meant prospects often felt there was no reward for their effort and accomplishment.

      Tambellini has many critics but he has done an exceptional job in one of the most critical areas of need for the Oilers (and arguably for all NHL teams today) in overhauling the farm system and development model. He improved the AHL team, changed the coaching and created an atmosphere of success and competition from within. THe first year in Springfield made the need for this abundantly clear. Both the Oilers and the Falcons finished at the bottom of their respective leagues.

      He has also addressed the idea that the AHL is a punishment for players making the transfer of players between the two teams as seamless as possible and ensuring that they all know that call-ups are available and based on merit.

      As for Omark, he’ll be up and playing the day that Hemsky is traded, I’m guessing. He is a good substitute for Hemsky on the RW as a playmaking winger who goes into traffic. He is more creative and better along the boards and has shown a surprising ability to be able to control the play down low against larger opponents. I don’t know that he’ll be in Edmonton long-term, but at 24/25 years-old having him play alongside Gagner/Lander and Paajarvi on the second-line will provide some decent depth for the team. His attitude issues are embellished by the media and he has shown in the last two seasons a great deal of maturity in handling the assignment to the AHL and his injury.

      • RexLibris

        Just a little philosophical rant here. Difficulty of looking at the Oilers versus Flames & try to evaluate & critique management decisions & temperatures of fan bases is that these teams seem to be at the opposite ends of the cycle of hockey life. Oilers farm affiliate & prospect cubboards are way ahead of the Flames & this is a natural thing. The Oilers 1st overal & lottery picking is probably soon over. In 2-3 years, their version of Iginlas & Regehrs will have signed significant second contracts and on the leg to their prime playing years. Soon enough Oilers will be seeing their GM making controversial decisions of trading good prospects & 1st rounders for pieces to win now.

        The fans today who hope for the Flames to tank want to get a jump of what is inevitable for the Flames. That hope to tank will soon enough turn to be knowing we are a lottery picking team. How soon we get another boat back in the water and gain some space where our 2 Alberta teams are in the cyle of hockey life depends on our GM decisions today, which will be influenced by sheer fluke circumstances that will happen in the next few weeks, like injuries & bad calls, etc. As long as we are on the opposite ends of this cycle, there will not be a meaningfull Battle of Alberta for a while.

        • RexLibris

          I LOVE philosophical rants. Especially when accompanied by a philosophical game of soccer.

          I actually wrote something about a year and a half ago that echoes your point about the two organizations being at opposite ends of the circle of life (I used an Indian Mandala as an example, creation and destruction and so on).

          One point about restocking a prospect pool is that it doesn’t have to be done during a rebuild. Proper management should aim at restocking a prospect pool continuously through drafting and trades. Ideally a team works towards turning over veterans for youth while maintaining a core of players that can be replaced only once every decade or more. This is, I believe, the real Detroit model that most teams strive for: to have a highly successful and stable group of players that can not only form the backbone of a team but also mentor their eventual successors. Today we call this the Detroit model, but perhaps the best team to ever do it was Montreal from the 50s through to the mid-to-late 70s.

          So, with that in mind, while the first overall picks that Edmonton has had the past two years (and has perhaps an 18.8% chance of getting again this year) have contributed to the talent pool there, it is the 2nd round and so on that was needed more than anything to properly restock the proverbial cupboard. The farm system of the Oilers was beyond bare, it was actually in a deficit where we needed to draft an inordinate number of prospects at every position in order to not only produce a few potential NHL players but also to account for the attrition that happens during development. Out top prospects in 2009-2010 were Jeff Petry, Jordan Eberle, Alex Plante and Devan Dubnyk. That kind of talent pool would be good on a competitor, but disastrous on a mediocre to bad team.

          When I look at the Flames I see some similarities but I won’t go as far as saying that the Flames of today are the the Oilers of yesterday. I have always said that the circumstances of each team are unique in many ways. Darryl Sutter wrote a lot of cheques that had to eventually be cashed by the team’s developmental apparatus. The lack of any available forward talent to be found within the Flames in order to augment the top line in Calgary in a secondary scoring role.

          The Heat are about a year or two away from arguable improving their scoring depth with the eventual arrival of Ferland, Baertschi and Reinhart. Out of those three, history suggests one will turn into a 250+ game NHLer while the others will struggle to gain traction outside of the AHL. Maybe all three succeed, maybe all three fail. But the Flames right now need to find a first line centre, a second line scoring threat and at least two bottom-six wingers who can score 10 to 15 goals a year. As well, they probably need at least one more puck-moving defenceman.

          One area that the Flames I think have some solid prospect depth is in goal. Ramo may not turn into anything special, but his numbers suggest he should be able to translate some of his play to the AHL and then perhaps beyond. Meanwhile Laurent Brossoit is near the top of the WHL goalie standings and appears to be a good goaltending prospect.

          The dearth of scoring talent, and even defensive depth, on the Heat are the reasons that I have argued that the trades Feaster has made in moving out second round picks for both this year and next will have more serious consequences later on. Even if he somehow manages to recoup a few in later trades at next year’s deadline or further along, it delays the drafting and development of prospects that the team needs to have in the system right now.

          Sorry, that’s sort of a rant there, but basically I agree that our two teams will only ever meet in the circumstance of passing elevators, one likely to be going up while the other is likely to descend.

  • the forgotten man

    Well, I for one am quite pleased we pulled off 4 points in 3 games on this road trip, my expectation was 2 points & hiring an auctioneer at the trade deadline after the Saturday game. Lets face it, we are a very competitive mediocre team that can have games where we can beat anyone in this league but dont because we dont have the young up & coming future leaders. If we dont have a work stoppage, this is the last year Feaster & King will be a potential buyer at this time of year. The injuries are really biting into this last hurrah for playoffs. Right now I have never been so bipolar about this team since they moved to Calgary from Atlanta. I want them to make the playoffs & roll the bones & have some fun, but after games last night & the predicament in the standings, coupled with injuries( Jones probably being the latest casualty & he was becoming that instigator pest player like a Marchand this team has been missing since we traded Phaneuf), I think I have better odds winning on the balckjack tables over an extended period of time before Flames can inchworm into 8th spot. What is particularily bad about losing to the likes of Phoenix, we wont come ahead on tie breakers if the points are the same at year end as well. This team gives me so many mixed emotions, I think I’ll just stick to drinking.

  • the forgotten man

    Well, I for one am quite pleased we pulled off 4 points in 3 games on this road trip, my expectation was 2 points & hiring an auctioneer at the trade deadline after the Saturday game. Lets face it, we are a very competitive mediocre team that can have games where we can beat anyone in this league but dont because we dont have the young up & coming future leaders. If we dont have a work stoppage, this is the last year Feaster & King will be a potential buyer at this time of year. The injuries are really biting into this last hurrah for playoffs. Right now I have never been so bipolar about this team since they moved to Calgary from Atlanta. I want them to make the playoffs & roll the bones & have some fun, but after games last night & the predicament in the standings, coupled with injuries( Jones probably being the latest casualty & he was becoming that instigator pest player like a Marchand this team has been missing since we traded Phaneuf), I think I have better odds winning on the balckjack tables over an extended period of time before Flames can inchworm into 8th spot. What is particularily bad about losing to the likes of Phoenix, we wont come ahead on tie breakers if the points are the same at year end as well. This team gives me so many mixed emotions, I think I’ll just stick to drinking.

  • RexLibris

    @Rex- agreed.

    I know Kent also mentioned Boum and Brodie, but really, at least one, if not both, of those guys are now NHLers. The farm team is maxed out beyond Horak.

  • RexLibris

    Further to this discussion, Oilcruzer over at ON gave a report on the Heat-Barons game last night. Here it is:

    Update on the OKC Heat game last night (in Abbotsford)

    First – the important stuff. They serve Sleemans Draught and HoneyBrown on tap. 24 oz for $9.50 or 12 oz for $4.75

    The place was about 35% full – I estimated 2000 people. There were about 100 of us who wore Oilshwag.

    Great facility. First class. Tickets were a ridiculous price. I took the best seats you could get and they were $90 for a pair plus $10 for parking. Now I know, those seats would be $350 in Edmonton but this isn’t the show.

    Abbotsford is sucking of late. Injuries to Flames have decimated their roster. They were in first at one time.

    Their team is a bunch of no names. Calgary’s draft record of the last 6 – 7 years is not great. I wonder why. They team has limited forward talent but some decent size, lots of heart, and basically, they play like the Calgary Flames. Making the most of what they have. Henrik Karlsson was down on conditioning and he got the start. Yann Denis took his two game shutout streak into the OKC net.

    Barons won 2 – 1 in a hard skating battle along the outside. There were 19 shots for the OKC Barons and 24 for the Abbotsford Heat. About 25% of the game at 5 on 5 was up tempo, at NHL speed.

    I don’t know much about the Abby Heat but I really liked a guy named Jordan Henry #25 on D. Brian Connelly also comes in with great fanfare – recently acquired, but he left part way in with an injury.

    Now… the other important stuff.

    OKC plays a solid team game. Their system play is very good. The team has a ton of talent. The coach is brilliant as a teacher or the team wins in spite of him. I’ll elaborate on that later.

    D Men on this night were Chorney, Yeo, Ringwald, Tulupov, Captain Helmer, and Teubert.

    This group was solid. Yeo impressed me. Teubert belongs here. He’s clearly learning. Tulupov? Don’t think he’s got the footspeed or lateral movement but it was just one game.

    Chorney was amazingly good. He’s progressing well. I expect him to make the show full time based on what I saw.

    These were the forwards on this night. O’Marra, Omark, Hartikainen, Tyrvainen, Cornet, Vandevelde, Pitlick, Green, Arcobello, Keller and Tremblay. (I was worried because on the way home I was thinking – gee, Curtis Hamilton was invisible all night… as it turns out, of course he was… he wasn’t dressed)

    Basically I grouped them into the prospects (good), the wannabes (okay), and the plugs (people filling spots) Coaching This was strange for me. Hartikainen wasn’t used at all on the penalty kill. The top rated penalty killer in Europe I thought? Is it about teaching? He and Tyrvainen make a great tandem.

    Omark Stuck with an old anchor as a linemate (Josh Green) Huh?

    Pitlick I’ll say it now. This guy is the real deal. My favourite player to watch on the forwards. He should be getting a look. He plays bigger than 6.2 200. He’s got hands, he’s got moves, he’s got smarts, I don’t know what he doesn’t have.

    He didn’t get PP time, he was stuck with a loose cannon (horrible player) #23 Triston Grant. Maybe he was there to cover for this guy.

    The following guys deserve a SHOT in the show:

    Yann Danis Why is he in the AHL? Shutout streak broken. Flirted with J. Bower’s record from 1950.

    Linus Omark He’s not all world. He’s okay and great in open ice. Problem is he doesn’t find it because he’s the one carrying the puck. Needs another stick handler on his line. Oh, and Hemsky is miles better.

    The following guys should be rewarded with LOOKS in the show:

    Hunter Tremblay Hustles and forces the play. Great third line prospect.

    Tyler Pitlick Seriously good. Another reason to divest of Horcoff.

    Hartikainen, Yeo, Tyrvainen

    Everyone benefits from AHL time, but these guys could use a bit more.

    Teubert, Chorney, VandeVelde

    These guys are NOT NHL TALENT nor will they ever be.

    Grant, Arcobello, Green

    I have no comment on others – cuz they didn’t impress or unimpress.


    A bunch of fans broke out into chants for the players “Let’s Go, Barons!!!” You could tell the Barons thought it odd but kinda cool.


    The local fans must have been starving and bored, cuz they responded “Let’s Go Eat!!!”

    Sorry for the length of the post, I just thought I would add it to the conversation.